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NOTAM Gotcha!

Old 3rd Nov 2021, 00:15
  #41 (permalink)  
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I guess it is too much to have an ATIS broadcast on a standard frequency stating that the runway is closed…

And yes, I have flown to an airport where the big wide tempting runway had an X on it because it was being repaved, and I was expected to (and did) land on the taxiway instead.

Even seeing the X, and knowing that work was in progress, it’s hard to wrap your head around the notion that you should land on the very narrow taxiway near where planes are tied down/parked.

After all, where are the other planes taxiing?
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 00:30
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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It's in the MOS old boy.
As is the section (3) I quoted you
"the height of the obstacle in relation to the aerodrome elevation".
How should it be stated in the NOTAM then? I guess if pilot scientists don't know what the Aerodrome Elevation actually refers to ("ERSA shows the AD ARP as 474' AMSL"), it makes it a moot point to state any figure. We'll just say minus 2 and you can puzzle over it.
You're obviously emotionally - perhaps financially? - attached to this stuff, because you're trying to justify patent nonsense.
No, I've just had some experience in working out and publishing NOTAM like this. Not because I wanted to, but because I had to. It's in the MOS old boy.
Seriously: What do you think the pilot of an aircraft actually does about the content of the likes of the YNAR NOTAM I quoted, in the real world? Seriously.
Nothing. Their eyes probably glaze over. But that doesn't mean the Aerodrome Operator is exempt from issuing it. AD operators aren't excluded from the CASA BS either. It's all just arse covering at the end of the day.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 00:31
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Even seeing the X, and knowing that work was in progress, it’s hard to wrap your head around the notion that you should land on the very narrow taxiway near where planes are tied down/parked.
Well pretty sure there's some legal aspect to landing on surfaces not surveyed/approved for the purpose.

The major issue you need to consider is that even if the runway is closed there are various things that taxiways could be used for, many engineering purposes could see aircraft doing ground runs, taxi trials, taxi checkouts for maintenance staff. None of which require a NOTAM issue either as they are just daily operations. The runway closed could signal they have the taxiways to themselves to get some stuff done in peace and quiet without having to get out of the way of traffic, don't assume runway closed means airport totally deserted.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 01:01
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Years ago in another life we had our RWY closed for works. NOTAM'd and marked by white crosses etc. Pilot overflies and lands between a pair of crosses and taxies around the other. When I asked him if he got the NOTAM, he said he didn't bother with them, that's why he overflew first. I asked him if he saw the white crosses. He said yes, and that he made sure he didn't run over any of them. When we came back later, he'd taken off and gone. I called the "local" CASA office to let them know. Their response: "Well he got down safely, that's the main thing". I got the impression that that was as far as it was going to go.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 02:06
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
.. the hidden NOTAMs now include that the whole airport is closed.
NOTAMs about a closed runway or airport always appear at the top of the list. I can access this information in my pocket in seconds. I’d hardly call them ‘hidden’. They are very easy to find.

I agree that there are too many superfluous NOTAMs about trees etc. But finding out if an airport runway is closed is easy, basic common sense and basic airmanship.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 04:05
  #46 (permalink)  
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But finding out if an airport runway is closed is easy, basic common sense and basic airmanship.
Problem solved then. All that has to happen is CASA revokes the license of any pilot who finds the current distribution of NOTAMs difficult, does not have common sense and is unable to define the requirements for basic airmanship. The incident that triggered the FAA response was the Air Canada flight that nearly landed on a taxiway full of jets at night in SFO. There was an issue with the NOTAM package where a closed runway was not so obvious. Its been a while since I have had to read NOTAMS but I don't recall runway closures always being at the top of the page. I am referring to the capital city airports as I haven't flown to a non-rpt regional airport for a long time.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 11:05
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
All that has to happen is CASA revokes the license of any pilot who finds the current distribution of NOTAMs difficult, does not have common sense and is unable to define the requirements for basic airmanship
With respect; Pilots are required by law to check NOTAMs. If someone doesn’t know that they shouldn’t hold a licence. Likewise if they dont know how to check NOTAMs.

These days you can retrieve NOTAMs via NAIPS smartphone app in literally seconds. If you are out of range you should understand your responsibility and find a landline etc

There is always all this talk of ‘kids these days’ but the guy who broke his aeroplane on a closed runway didn’t check the NOTAMs.

And yes NOTAMs are presented with the most important at the top. In my recent experience it is very very easy to check important operational info via NOTAM.

Maybe these old blokes are too busy taking ‘selfies’ or chatting on ‘Instagram’ or posting on ‘the Facebook’ and they forget to check NOTAMs lol
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 12:01
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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I think you are missing the point, required by law does not stop things from happening. A proper system stops bad things by having multiple layers, at present having a one point safety net that can either be undone by a council not submitting the notice or the pilot not reading the notice is a bad system. The MOS has fixed most of the problems regarding extra signage required, but the NOTAM system is still flawed by a number of issues including overwhelming information, which in itself blocks critical information from being registered.

Saying the current NOTAM system is adequate is like saying, oh we don't need ATS, TAWS or Radar, pilots are legally required to know the lowest safe altitude and can make the safe choice themselves to let down to an airport if IMC. And separation, the law says I shouldn't hit another airplane so, that should be it, I don't need TCAS and ATS services, get rid of those costly buggers, I have a radio so can talk to others and separate, I don't need fail safes, I'm a Skygod.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 13:31
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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A bit like windsock indications being useful in an age where no large aircraft, which are at particular danger to a damaged runway surface, are all doing straight in approaches.
I still look at it for take-off, though.
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Old 3rd Nov 2021, 14:10
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hamley View Post
NOTAMs about a closed runway or airport always appear at the top of the list. I can access this information in my pocket in seconds. I’d hardly call them ‘hidden’. They are very easy to find.
yeah nah...
they don’t..

I just looked up YSSY in NAIPs...

33 notams into 51... RWY 07/25 closed 1200/1900 over 4 days..
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Old 4th Nov 2021, 02:10
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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No, I've just had some experience in working out and publishing NOTAM like this. Not because I wanted to, but because I had to.
My apologies, TIER.
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Old 4th Nov 2021, 03:33
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hamley View Post
With respect; Pilots are required by law to check NOTAMs. If someone doesn’t know that they shouldn’t hold a licence. Likewise if they dont know how to check NOTAMs.

These days you can retrieve NOTAMs via NAIPS smartphone app in literally seconds. If you are out of range you should understand your responsibility and find a landline etc

There is always all this talk of ‘kids these days’ but the guy who broke his aeroplane on a closed runway didn’t check the NOTAMs.

And yes NOTAMs are presented with the most important at the top. In my recent experience it is very very easy to check important operational info via NOTAM.

Maybe these old blokes are too busy taking ‘selfies’ or chatting on ‘Instagram’ or posting on ‘the Facebook’ and they forget to check NOTAMs lol
I guess safety investigations that look at the problems with the system that contributed to the occurrence happening are also stupid and not required?

There is a massive issue with the NOTAM system worldwide, too many irrelevant ones that overshadow the very important ones. Why on earth do I need to know about a tree that infringes the splay by 3ft 2.5kms away? What difference is that going to make? If it affects my take off performance, my performance department is going to do something about it (maybe they need a separate system that publishes all those types of things for anyone who needs them), but its relevance on a day to day operation is not worth considering.

Get back to Instagram buddy.
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Old 4th Nov 2021, 10:36
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hamley View Post
With respect; Pilots are required by law to check NOTAMs. If someone doesn’t know that they shouldn’t hold a licence. Likewise if they dont know how to check NOTAMs.
These days you can retrieve NOTAMs via NAIPS smartphone app in literally seconds. If you are out of range you should understand your responsibility and find a landline etc
There is always all this talk of ‘kids these days’ but the guy who broke his aeroplane on a closed runway didn’t check the NOTAMs.
And yes NOTAMs are presented with the most important at the top. In my recent experience it is very very easy to check important operational info via NOTAM.
Maybe these old blokes are too busy taking ‘selfies’ or chatting on ‘Instagram’ or posting on ‘the Facebook’ and they forget to check NOTAMs lol
What a load of [email protected] You remind me of the infamous cadet who proclaimed, "In my experience, experience counts for little."

The last major trip I did I downloaded the airports, a selection of alternates and FIR notams. 135 pages.....and that was a normal 10 font. I found some highly relevant, safety critical stuff buried on page 73.
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Old 5th Nov 2021, 00:52
  #54 (permalink)  
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You remind me of the infamous cadet who proclaimed, "In my experience, experience counts for little."
He certainly reinforced the adage that not all pricks sit in the left hand seat.
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Old 5th Nov 2021, 02:08
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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With respect; Pilots are required by law to check NOTAMs. If someone doesn’t know that they shouldn’t hold a licence. Likewise if they dont know how to check NOTAMs.

These days you can retrieve NOTAMs via NAIPS smartphone app in literally seconds. If you are out of range you should understand your responsibility and find a landline etc

There is always all this talk of ‘kids these days’ but the guy who broke his aeroplane on a closed runway didn’t check the NOTAMs.

And yes NOTAMs are presented with the most important at the top. In my recent experience it is very very easy to check important operational info via NOTAM.
Sorry that is not correct. As mentioned before Sydney has always been a case in point with it's laundry list of NOTAMS. Darwin more recently had a very badly worded NOTAM with multiple separate NOTAMS around runway works none of which were at the top.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 00:19
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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NOTAMs possibly need to have a category assigned. Ie Category 1 is High risk such as airport closure, main runway closure, minima changes, large/dangerous obstacles changing TODA/TORA or LDA, extreme animal risks such as stock on runway, sudden lighting changes and so on. Category two as medium risk secondary runway, or grass surfaces unavailable, lighting changes, standby power, lower animal risks, frequency changes, ATS changes. Category 3 as no significant hazard but notifiable, obstacles under a certain height that pose no real threat to normal operations, hours of operation of tower, fuel etc, taxiway lights markings etc etc etc.

Once you have a category assigned you can push notifications through modern pilot applications. Ie taxi at Gunnedah, Oz Runways/Jeps flashes big red warning "Category 1 NOTAM for this aerodrome, push to read", once its read have it come up as just a big red "!" in the corner or next to the Aerodrome name, so it's still in mind. Still have an alert for Cat 2/3 but let it be just a yellow "!" in the corner next or to the aerodrome name or such. Just like TCAS or TAWS it becomes a fallback warning for a missed NOTAM, just like both its not infallible but will work in 90% of scenarios and hopefully prevent 99.9% of occurrences.

The MOS covers the councils extra duties, but really there needs a backup system for pilots, we are human and subject to err.

In theory you could link more to this, such as line up on the wrong runway and the big red "!" comes up, "hey idiot, this ones shorter than the minimum length in the aircraft data"
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