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Mooney accident pilot refused a clearance at 6,500'

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Mooney accident pilot refused a clearance at 6,500'

Old 19th Nov 2019, 00:08
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by havick View Post
BlackPanther;
Everyone is in agreement that the system is broken
Who is "everyone"?
Piston_Broke is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2019, 04:42
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Everyone who is not RPT jet crew.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 07:31
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
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It really has to be reiterated that denying clearance is not necessarily as a result of conflicting traffic.
Then that is not an air traffic control system is it? If you're denying a clearance because it's all too complex, then whomever designed the the system needs a good hard kick up the arse.

The ATC may have complex procedures that they need to go through to allow your airways clearance. There may be coordination, route requirements, local instructions, etc etc, that all need to be sorted before a clearance can be given.
So what? Do what you're paid to do.

Not to mention systems issues with a rapidly aging ATC system.
Horseshit, it's not rapidly ageing.

Plus, they may not just be controlling your particular part of the world. They may be getting pumped in another section of their airspace. Plus, because of the staffing pressure that airservices is currently experiencing (due to funding pressure from industry and government), these areas of jurisdiction are getting ever larger.
Valid. Except for the funding pressure from the government, they make a profit.

I am led to believe that you can fly all the way from Archerfield to Bankstown talking to a single controller (excluding a few minutes with the Approach guys). That's a huge area to deal with, considering some of the aviation hotspots in that particular corridor.
Who's fault is that?

Please don't see me as an ATC apologist. I just don't like people in this thread that are blaming ATC, when instead it's the system and culture created by industry that might be worth looking at.
I don't see too many peeps blaming the controllers. Probably for the 10th time in this thread, it's not the controllers fault, it's the garbage airspace they work.

But I'll tell ya a couple of things, controllers are constantly told (by their employer) they are amongst the best in the world, really? They are told they have the best airspace system in the world, really? Despite this, ASA is petrified of liability, the arseguarding is world's best practice.

There is also a deep culture of '[email protected] VFR, we don't make money out of them, piss off OCTA'

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Old 19th Nov 2019, 07:35
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
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100% without exception been advised/informed/told to be OCTA if I'm not doing the RNAV.
I'd be interested to hear from any ATC around the world if they do this?

One day, ASA will be held to account for this unprofessional practice.

I'd suggest you tell them that you require the protection of controlled airspace.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 09:39
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
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@Porter...

I think we are getting to the same point but from different paths. The entire system (I mean the Australian Industry, not TAAATS) is broken. ASA definitely believes they are the best, but I reckon that most of their ATC's don't think that. They certainly try the best, but they are stymied by bureaucracy.

Making a profit is the reason for the funding pressures. They sacked so many safety and project staff in the clean out that they can't perform basic functions now. They are creating a profit at the expense of safety. The aging of TAAATS and the reduced staffing are all as a result of trying to run Airservices commercially.

Originally Posted by The name is Porter View Post
One day, ASA will be held to account for this unprofessional practice.
Can't agree more, but in a general sense, not RNAV specific. The way that company is run will one day come back to bite them.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 13:02
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Black Panther, I used to be counselled for 'helping VFR out too much'. The airspace and infrastructure is an absolute joke. ASA looks shiny and new on the outside, like a showbag really, big, fat and full of shit.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 21:31
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Can someone tell me the point of fitting ADSB - out to a VFR aircraft if, as has been suggested, ASA has no interest in affording any services whatsoever to VFR aircraft? If I wanted to be churlish, I’d be asking why the #### should we be making their job any easier?
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 23:30
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Can someone tell me the point of fitting ADSB - out to a VFR aircraft if, as has been suggested, ASA has no interest in affording any services whatsoever to VFR aircraft?
I think you will find that a lot of that is tied up in politics, particularly around ASA and CASA saying that they are fostering the general aviation industry because they can have them on surveillance and provide better service.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 05:16
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter View Post
I'd suggest you tell them that you require the protection of controlled airspace.
Haha. We all know Id just be put in the hold at Bindook over tiger country for some indeterminate amount of time.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 06:46
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Haha. We all know Id just be put in the hold at Bindook over tiger country for some indeterminate amount of time.
Absolutely you would, guaranteed.

When conducting these checks, you may discover that you would be landing at your original planned destination without sufficient fuel, that is, your fixed fuel reserve remaining.

If this occurs, make an alternate plan to land safely with sufficient fuel at a different location than you had originally planned. Your new safe landing location will depend on your aircraft capabilities and the conditions.

However, if a safe landing location is not an option and you are landing with less than your fixed fuel reserve, then you must declare Mayday Fuel.

Preserving fixed fuel reserve is the foundation for in-flight fuel decision making which leads to safer operations.

That doesn't mean that in all instances preserving your fixed fuel reserve is the highest priority. There may be occasions where it is more important to exercise your judgement to determine the safest outcome, which may include landing with less than fixed fuel reserve.

Why declare Mayday Fuel?

The Mayday Fuel declaration aims to increase safety. It alerts other airspace users to a potential fuel problem facing an aircraft in their vicinity and ensures priority is given to that aircraft to reduce the chances of an accident.

The declaration is an internationally recognised standard aligning Australia with the standards of the International Civil Aviation Organization that are designed to assist in the management of aviation safety risks.

Mayday Fuel is not aimed at setting conditions to prosecute pilots or operators and a declaration does not automatically mean that emergency services will be mobilised
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 20:39
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Can someone tell me the point of fitting ADSB - out to a VFR aircraft if, as has been suggested, ASA has no interest in affording any services whatsoever to VFR aircraft? If I wanted to be churlish, Id be asking why the #### should we be making their job any easier?
As has been proven in this accident Sunfish they will know exactly where you crashed when they refuse you clearance through CTA...

In saying that, I have ADS-B in my RV and am quite happy to do so. I've had directed traffic information from Center (not just "aircraft 5 miles north Singleton...") several times, and the KRviatrix can track me when I'm airborne, above and beyond what Google Maps and OzRunways offer.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 22:55
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Can someone tell me the point of fitting ADSB - out to a VFR aircraft if, as has been suggested, ASA has no interest in affording any services whatsoever to VFR aircraft?
Ditto IFR really. Especially with the woeful cover outside the J curve and below 5,000 ft.

ADSB was to benefit the airlines, reduce AsA's capital costs of radar installations and allow AsA executives to big note themselves at ICAO meetings by being an early adopter.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 23:28
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Old Akro View Post
Ditto IFR really. Especially with the woeful cover outside the J curve and below 5,000 ft.

ADSB was to benefit the airlines, reduce AsA's capital costs of radar installations and allow AsA executives to big note themselves at ICAO meetings by being an early adopter.
ADSB out is great, because those of us with ADSB receivers such as the Ping, Stratux or otherwise piped into OZRunways or AvPlan can see you. Budget reliable traffic information on your iPad. Combine that with the Avplan and OZRunways 4g data feed also displaying, we may have half a chance of survival by catching conflicting traffic if ASA cant protect us from running into each other.


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Old 24th Nov 2019, 22:29
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Can someone tell me the point of fitting ADSB - out to a VFR aircraft if, as has been suggested, ASA has no interest in affording any services whatsoever to VFR aircraft? If I wanted to be churlish, Id be asking why the #### should we be making their job any easier?
I'm an ATCO in another part of the world so cannot comment on Oz specific issues, but it's being said that Aireon Alert were able to provide data to OZ SAR via space based ADSB that narrowed the crash site to within 1 square NM. In an accident where there are survivors, this could be the difference between life and death, so there is a benefit there.
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Old 24th Nov 2019, 23:16
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc View Post
I'm an ATCO in another part of the world so cannot comment on Oz specific issues, but it's being said that Aireon Alert were able to provide data to OZ SAR via space based ADSB that narrowed the crash site to within 1 square NM. In an accident where there are survivors, this could be the difference between life and death, so there is a benefit there.
It would be better if that system could help prevent the crash in the first place!
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