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RFDS feeling effects of global pilot shortage

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RFDS feeling effects of global pilot shortage

Old 23rd Sep 2019, 00:14
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Golly gosh, and I thought all the little year 9 girls at my daughter's school were catty little bitches. I wouldn't hire one of you little girls.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 00:18
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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(A lot of airlines overseas are now throwing pimply faced, 200 hour pilots into the RHS of A330s.... ask yourselves, how demanding can that job really be?).
A lot of these airlines actually train their pilots through from ab initio into the RHS at their expense rather than expecting to have already licensed and experienced pilots knocking on their doors with a fist full of $$$ to pay for their own endorsements.

Due to the nature of their operation, the RFDS can't have the sort of turnover that a charter operator in Darwin would expect. Single pilot, night IFR, high performance aircraft going into marginal strip strips during the wet season is best done by someone who's already done it a few hundred times and has "the knowledge" of his patch. A pilot who knows that if he crosses the reservoir and turns onto a heading of 210 then the airfield will be straight in front of him or that the bottom end of the runway is a bit soft when it rains. Things you only learn on the job, not from books.

Structure the pay and conditions so that competent and experienced pilots are attracted and retained. They need the grey haired 50 year olds with 10 000 hours in the log books who are going to stick around until retirement rather than the early 20s youngsters with 3000 hours and a current application in with several airlines. Unfortunately the youngsters without heavy commitments can afford to fly cheap whilst filling up the log book until they move on, the older pilots with mortgages, teenage children and an eye on the retirement fund can't.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 06:05
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
"I'm not interested in flying for the airlines." Is right up there with "Of course I love you." and "The cheque's in the post." It must be one of the most overused lies in the aviation industry.
Any suggestions on how to actually phrase a cover letter or application when you genuinely have no desire to fly for an airline?

Iíll clarify, specifically no desire to fly jets for Ďmainlineí operators.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 07:58
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Obidiah View Post
Deja vu;

For what it's worth I just added that information for your benefit as you appeared to want to really drill down on another contributors post regarding such. It had been a requirement but there is some relaxation due to the difficulty in finding nurses with this qualification, likely now a case by case scenario. As for other extra qualifications I could not say, generally you will find the nurses are somewhat older than the average of the pool due to the years required to obtain the skill sets for the job.

Maybe you could celebrate this small single point win with a champagne popper discharged in your mouth.
Well we have at last established beyond doubt that the claim that the doctor and or nurse required substantial extra qualifications for the RFDS is absolute and total tosh. Further claims that the doctor's or nurses's role is far more complex than that of the pilot has also been refuted by several current and past RFDS crews. The author of this tosh is anything but grateful to have his falsehoods corrected and hence unlikely to learn from the experience but instead wishes physical harm to those who question his veracity. This has to put doubt on anything further uttered by this particular muppet.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 08:53
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deja vu View Post
Well we have at last established beyond doubt that the claim that the doctor and or nurse required substantial extra qualifications for the RFDS is absolute and total tosh. Further claims that the doctor's or nurses's role is far more complex than that of the pilot has also been refuted by several current and past RFDS crews. The author of this tosh is anything but grateful to have his falsehoods corrected and hence unlikely to learn from the experience but instead wishes physical harm to those who question his veracity. This has to put doubt on anything further uttered by this particular muppet.
Right...I've been doing this for decades, so I have some semblance of what goes on.....Number 1 the Docs are worth every bloody cent they get paid and more in my opinion....2 The Nurses are professionals that deserve to be paid well and 3..The Pilots are professionals that deserve substantionally more than they get, though it should not be based on what Dr's or Flight Nurses get, but on their own hard earned skills.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 09:59
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deja vu View Post
Well we have at last established beyond doubt that the claim that the doctor and or nurse required substantial extra qualifications for the RFDS is absolute and total tosh. Further claims that the doctor's or nurses's role is far more complex than that of the pilot has also been refuted by several current and past RFDS crews. The author of this tosh is anything but grateful to have his falsehoods corrected and hence unlikely to learn from the experience but instead wishes physical harm to those who question his veracity. This has to put doubt on anything further uttered by this particular muppet.
Well letís just see if the docs are looking for a nurse straight out of uni or one with substantial extra qualification and experience. Hereís a current job ad.

The Royal Flying Doctor Service (QLD Section) is seeking suitably skilled and qualified nurses for the role of Flight Nurse (Midwifery) at our Townsville Base. The services provided from this base range from inter-hospital transfers to aeromedical and emergency response in remote areas. Our Flight Nurses are a valued and respected part of the aeromedical tam, showcasing their high-level clinical skills and patient care on a daily basis, and enjoying the challenge of never knowing what the day will bring.

Who we are looking for?

You are an experienced and high-performing Registered Nurse and Midwife with AHPRA registration, with exceptional patient care and equal commitment to contributing to the team and operational goals.

In addition, you will have:
  • A minimum of four to five yearsí experience (within the last 7 years) in a critical care environment in either a recognised Major Regional or Tertiary Hospital Emergency Department, with a 24 hour in-department medical coverage or a recognised Intensive Care Unit. The required time can consist of critical care experience across both environments.
  • Current Advanced Life Support (ALS), Paediatric Advanced Life Support (PALS) and Neonatal resuscitation certification.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 10:53
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cloudee View Post

Well letís just see if the docs are looking for a nurse straight out of uni or one with substantial extra qualification and experience. Hereís a current job ad.

The Royal Flying Doctor Service (QLD Section) is seeking suitably skilled and qualified nurses for the role of Flight Nurse (Midwifery) at our Townsville Base. The services provided from this base range from inter-hospital transfers to aeromedical and emergency response in remote areas. Our Flight Nurses are a valued and respected part of the aeromedical tam, showcasing their high-level clinical skills and patient care on a daily basis, and enjoying the challenge of never knowing what the day will bring.

Who we are looking for?

You are an experienced and high-performing Registered Nurse and Midwife with AHPRA registration, with exceptional patient care and equal commitment to contributing to the team and operational goals.

In addition, you will have:
  • A minimum of four to five yearsí experience (within the last 7 years) in a critical care environment in either a recognised Major Regional or Tertiary Hospital Emergency Department, with a 24 hour in-department medical coverage or a recognised Intensive Care Unit. The required time can consist of critical care experience across both environments.
  • Current Advanced Life Support (ALS), Paediatric Advanced Life Support (PALS) and Neonatal resuscitation certification.
Sure, saw that, but as your little mate suggests that although the RFDS might be looking for those qualifications in some locations, they are just not getting them. I hope you looked at numerous other RFDS ads for nurses, for example one in Cairns where midwifery would be an advantage but not required.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 11:32
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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What is wrong with some of you people?
No-one said the Dr or Nurse should be paid less. Get over it.
They have to be very well qualified and experienced. And, IN THE PAST, so did the pilots.
I didn’t even get an interview until I had well over 4000 hours, and that was all proper IFR charter, not buzzing around the circuit for most of it.
Because of the pilot shortage and the fact that a lot of RFDS pilots have walked into an airline job paying far more money, the RFDS has - rather than look after their existing pilots - simply lowered their requirements.
That is a very bad idea for a lot of reasons. Not least of which is that the nurses are starting to get worried.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 11:56
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rcoight View Post
What is wrong with some of you people?
No-one said the Dr or Nurse should be paid less. Get over it.
They have to be very well qualified and experienced. And, IN THE PAST, so did the pilots.
I didnít even get an interview until I had well over 4000 hours, and that was all proper IFR charter, not buzzing around the circuit for most of it.
Because of the pilot shortage and the fact that a lot of RFDS pilots have walked into an airline job paying far more money, the RFDS has - rather than look after their existing pilots - simply lowered their requirements.
That is a very bad idea for a lot of reasons. Not least of which is that the nurses are starting to get worried.
So do you know why the RFDS would allow this to go on?
Could it be that CEO's don't need/want to be responsible for increased costs during their watch which may be reflected on their CV, the ticket to their next job.? I would hate to think it was arrived at from an EBA.

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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 14:35
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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They need the grey haired 50 year olds with 10 000 hours in the log books who are going to stick around until retirement
Thomas Cook have just gone under. Should be lots of spare pilots if RFDS that short of crews?
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 17:04
  #91 (permalink)  

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Centaurus, they might be experienced but I doubt many will have the experience that RFDS needs. Many of their pilots would not have flown a turboprop, let alone any significant single pilot remote area experience. Certainly no one from the MPL background will have the appropriate experience.

krismiler Very few UK airlines pay for ab initio to hero flight training. Not many airlines do it in Europe either. Most cadets are looking at a £100-150K price tag.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 20:09
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by redsnail View Post
Centaurus, they might be experienced but I doubt many will have the experience that RFDS needs. Many of their pilots would not have flown a turboprop, let alone any significant single pilot remote area experience. Certainly no one from the MPL background will have the appropriate experience.

krismiler Very few UK airlines pay for ab initio to hero flight training. Not many airlines do it in Europe either. Most cadets are looking at a £100-150K price tag.
Precisely.

And furthermore, those of us with tons of bush experience from decades ago and who have moved on to the gravy train of airline and other multi crew highly automated aircraft have lost the knack of single pilot IFR. Too many years staring at that magenta line addles the brain. I know that I could not do it today.

The pool of genuinely capable pilots from which the RFDS can confidently recruit has shrunk. They can expand that pool by offering the same salary as any mainline airline captain would earn.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 20:42
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Itís good that you admit it..I have to admit too..thereís plenty of young guys who are much better sticks than me around. On the other hand..I have some leave and I got my eyes on a cub at the local GA field 🤤
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 04:28
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Centaurus View Post
Thomas Cook have just gone under. Should be lots of spare pilots if RFDS that short of crews?
The RFDS are not short of crew, they are just short of the crew who will stay on a pittance. They are unwilling to do what any reasonable and sensible business would do and offer what it takes to attract and retain such essential specialist employees. They would rather bleat about an imaginary pilot shortage. Time to look at management I would think.
Ex airline pilots are not the answer, we know how that goes!
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 07:41
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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The RFDS are not short of crew, they are just short of the crew who will stay on a pittance. They are unwilling to do what any reasonable and sensible business would do and offer what it takes to attract and retain such essential specialist employees. They would rather bleat about an imaginary pilot shortage. Time to look at management I would think.
Precisely.
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 10:20
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Genuine question: how do the RFDS Doctors and Nurses get paid compared to a cushy suburban practice?
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 12:52
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
Genuine question: how do the RFDS Doctors and Nurses get paid compared to a cushy suburban practice?
Yep! Not the best in Australia but still decent and they're treated fairly well as far as employers go plus having RFDS on your resume. They have a reasonably high retention rate as a result for their medical staff unlike a lot of private aeromedical services in Oceania. RFDS were pretty over staffed a few years back when careflight took the contracts in QLD and Darwin which should indicate the quality of careflight...

Nurses are RN and Midwife registered (4 years combined at uni), crit care cert (2 years working in ED/ICU plus 12 months study), remote area skilled (usually at least 2 years) and typically 5 years total at a start working ED or ICU.

Base nursing wage is around $118-120k a year. Typical comparative role in a hospital would be a Clinical Nurse Consultant which is around $90-100k a year.

But on top of that you get to travel and still reasonably be home on time (Unlike a lot of employers RDDS are fairly strict with them in the air), paid work to remote community events, very little management responsibility, flexible hours and leave and if you live close enough to the airport you can be on call at home in most areas. But more than anything in 99% of jobs you're working as 1 nurse as your medical/cabin/ground crew and yourself as the pilot and 1-2 patients. Responsibility is higher but so is autonomy.

Doctors depend on the region and role but are typically FRACGP (GPs), FACEM (ED doctors) or FANZCA (Anesthetics) in their emergency roles.
Doctors wages are highly variable so it's hard to estimate but more than enough to retain their doctors, in the $250,-350k mark for their GPs and $300-500k for their specialists and senior medical staff. The GPs that I know in central ops are typically FRACGP and Anesthetics or emergency and have worked in large ED or theaters before.

Originally Posted by Global Aviator View Post
Just a little googling - (Glass door) so the drivers are also the paramedics. Doesnít seem that high to me!
​​​​​​Glass door isn't a accurate representation. You'll have hard pressed to find a paramedic earning less than 90k straight out the door of their internship and​​​​ unlike pilots, aren't capped by casa at working overtime.
paramedics in the city are easily pushing 100k+, rural area and team leaders comfortably sit in the 150-180k mark.

Above coming from the perspective of a gov emplyoed Nurse/Paramedic who has friends working as doctors and nurses for them.

Last edited by Scarecrow388; 24th Sep 2019 at 13:08.
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 13:54
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Any suggestions on how to actually phrase a cover letter or application when you genuinely have no desire to fly for an airline?
The only sure way is to be above the age limit for the airlines, which is a bit difficult these days with all the anti discrimination legislation, but the older you are the better you look. Having a restriction or waiver on your ticket is another plus point, as is being significantly overweight.

RFDS need bush pilots, not children of the magenta line. Whilst it would be unreasonable to expect the same pay as an airline Captain, first officer level would be realistic as a Kingair can’t bring in the income that a B737 can. The trade off for lower pay is a more relaxed working environment without having every aspect of your day micromanaged with SOPs, over regulation and endless simulator checks.

If the RFDS paid the same as the airlines they would have a lot of applications on the files from airline Pilots who are fed up of the endless bulls**t and would rather do what they enjoy which is flying a plane. Once the golden handcuffs are on they are very hard to remove.
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 15:41
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Do airline pilots make good RFDS pilots generally ? Are airline pilots disadvantaged at the interview stage ? How many airline pilots actually get a start with aeromedical operations ?
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Old 24th Sep 2019, 22:33
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Just a thought, why donít the RFDS go two crew?

Get a low-time (500-700hr pilot) in the RHS, get them involved in the operation. Get experience with a mentor in the LHS then after a few years move them into the left seat.

But I agree, the RFDS pilots definitely need to be on an airline salary. Simple market economics, pay more for a better product.
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