Snoozing pilot misses landing - The Australian
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too funny
I recall back in the day the crusty old ATO that turned up for my Grade 3 instructors rating test, me s%^ting bricks for a week prior.
After the chalk and talk I took him out and diligently showed him my mighty 172. Off we went, somewhere down the lane of entry he fell asleep the first time. What to do - wake him or let him snooze?
I let him go till the training area, then did the old gentle elbow.
His eyes tight shut during most of the sequences. Funny as all get out now I think about it. (and yes a snooze on the way home)
Not sure why anyone surprised at a driver (back on topic) falling asleep for a bit. Give back of the clock night freight a go - all around a day job and studies and see how long it is before you (hopefully) wake up at the wheel....
After the chalk and talk I took him out and diligently showed him my mighty 172. Off we went, somewhere down the lane of entry he fell asleep the first time. What to do - wake him or let him snooze?
I let him go till the training area, then did the old gentle elbow.
His eyes tight shut during most of the sequences. Funny as all get out now I think about it. (and yes a snooze on the way home)
Not sure why anyone surprised at a driver (back on topic) falling asleep for a bit. Give back of the clock night freight a go - all around a day job and studies and see how long it is before you (hopefully) wake up at the wheel....
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the same aviation “expert” that claimed the recent 737 crashes were not a fault with the aircraft...
He also doesn't understand the role of the ATSB, they have no power to fine or take action against anyone. CASA have been dragging the chain on fatigue rules for years so why not blame them?
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the same aviation “expert”
Putting to one side the possibility of misreporting ... I haven't spoken with Neil for many years, don't know if he has any/significant pilot experience, but he is a well-experienced maintainer/regulatory chap so not entirely without expertise.
Putting to one side the possibility of misreporting ... I haven't spoken with Neil for many years, don't know if he has any/significant pilot experience, but he is a well-experienced maintainer/regulatory chap so not entirely without expertise.
No sleep in 24 hours despite not working within five days, landing at YKII and then making the decision to continue working.
“If you’ve been on leave for five days before a shift, there’s nothing as an organisation we could’ve done,” said Mr Tucker, adding the pilot was aware of his roster before he went on leave.
And you see no responsibility with the pilot at all? In this example is there really anyway to actually blame anyone else other than the PIC, or is this just a default setting for you? What length will you not go to to bear a grudge with CASA or the ATSB??
Everyone makes mistakes, and I bet he's a better pilot because of it. Does that somehow mean the blame lies somewhere else? We all have to take responsibility for what we could have done better.
“If you’ve been on leave for five days before a shift, there’s nothing as an organisation we could’ve done,” said Mr Tucker, adding the pilot was aware of his roster before he went on leave.
And you see no responsibility with the pilot at all? In this example is there really anyway to actually blame anyone else other than the PIC, or is this just a default setting for you? What length will you not go to to bear a grudge with CASA or the ATSB??
Everyone makes mistakes, and I bet he's a better pilot because of it. Does that somehow mean the blame lies somewhere else? We all have to take responsibility for what we could have done better.
LFA, study the double bind problem. Does the pilot want to keep their job or fly safely?
“Double binds are often utilized as a form of control without open coercion—the use of confusion makes them both difficult to respond to as well as to resist.[2]:271-278.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind
“Double binds are often utilized as a form of control without open coercion—the use of confusion makes them both difficult to respond to as well as to resist.[2]:271-278.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind
the same aviation “expert”
Putting to one side the possibility of misreporting ... I haven't spoken with Neil for many years, don't know if he has any/significant pilot experience, but he is a well-experienced maintainer/regulatory chap so not entirely without expertise.
Putting to one side the possibility of misreporting ... I haven't spoken with Neil for many years, don't know if he has any/significant pilot experience, but he is a well-experienced maintainer/regulatory chap so not entirely without expertise.
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'twas an observation, only. Like you, I prefer that folks stay in their areas of discipline competence when pontificating ... (not always that easy unless stone cold sober, of course ..)
I
Like it or not your and your employer’s responsibilities regarding this type of situation are described very clearly.
Seems to me if the pilot had fallen asleep on a previous sector due to lack of sleep both the pilot and the operator should have ‘reason to believe’ the pilot’s fatigue will affect subsequent flights.
Both pilot and operator seem to have failed in their responsibilities under CAO 48.1
Like it or not your and your employer’s responsibilities regarding this type of situation are described very clearly.
Seems to me if the pilot had fallen asleep on a previous sector due to lack of sleep both the pilot and the operator should have ‘reason to believe’ the pilot’s fatigue will affect subsequent flights.
Both pilot and operator seem to have failed in their responsibilities under CAO 48.1
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Half the planes flying around the world on back of the clock , red eye ops have sleepy , tired or fatigued crew up the front . Airlines pushing FTL’s right to the limit , reducing crew numbers combined with less experienced pilots all adding to the army of pilots trying to stay awake . I was doing a red eye recently and other pilot asleep under a legal controlled rest procedure . I’m staying quite lights low headset on staring into the darkness trying to keep alert . Reminded of the promair days but instead of 300 crays behind me I got 300 pax .
Fatigue is a huge issue at all levels and can’t just say it’s legal and it will be ok !
Fatigue is a huge issue at all levels and can’t just say it’s legal and it will be ok !
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Half the planes flying around the world on back of the clock , red eye ops have sleepy , tired or fatigued crew up the front . Airlines pushing FTL’s right to the limit , reducing crew numbers combined with less experienced pilots all adding to the army of pilots trying to stay awake . I was doing a red eye recently and other pilot asleep under a legal controlled rest procedure . I’m staying quite lights low headset on staring into the darkness trying to keep alert . Reminded of the promair days but instead of 300 crays behind me I got 300 pax .
Fatigue is a huge issue at all levels and can’t just say it’s legal and it will be ok !
Fatigue is a huge issue at all levels and can’t just say it’s legal and it will be ok !
Glad I am all but out of that these days, I made it thru the dodgem course unscathed....phew!
Ya gotta feel for the bloke no matter what. How many of us here can honesty say they have never had an unplanned cat nap, micro sleep, he’ll sleep even.
Single pilot freight ops, night, probably one of the toughest gigs out there. Remember the ole can’t remember the operator, but days single pilot METRO night freight. Hmm there have been a couple of Cessna 210’s land unplanned due to issues like this. They have been around since we started pushing limits. As a previous poster pointed out FTL are seen as hard limits and operators want to get as much out of a driver as possible.
Back of the clock flying I used to enjoy when I had a roster full of it, one could get used to it. Rostering where it chops and changes is just wrong. Problem is that again we are our own worst enemy as if reports are not constantly filled then what will happen? Pilots seem reluctant to file fatigue reports/ tiredness related reports. Management (especially ex Pilots) seem to forget how demanding this flying can be.
All of us who came through GA probably have an inkling to the real big picture in this case.
Stay awake out there....... Tripple espresso please.
Single pilot freight ops, night, probably one of the toughest gigs out there. Remember the ole can’t remember the operator, but days single pilot METRO night freight. Hmm there have been a couple of Cessna 210’s land unplanned due to issues like this. They have been around since we started pushing limits. As a previous poster pointed out FTL are seen as hard limits and operators want to get as much out of a driver as possible.
Back of the clock flying I used to enjoy when I had a roster full of it, one could get used to it. Rostering where it chops and changes is just wrong. Problem is that again we are our own worst enemy as if reports are not constantly filled then what will happen? Pilots seem reluctant to file fatigue reports/ tiredness related reports. Management (especially ex Pilots) seem to forget how demanding this flying can be.
All of us who came through GA probably have an inkling to the real big picture in this case.
Stay awake out there....... Tripple espresso please.
You just reminded me in the early noughties, I seem to recall there was a night freight C210 heading south from Darwin, pilot fell asleep, woke up out of range of navaids (no GPS) and that landed not far from the rock on a salt pan at dawn?
A lot of pilots would have fallen asleep briefly especially in these sorts of Ops where it's an early morning dep & that drone in smooth air would dull ones senses at times, fatigue is a hideous thing, ALL humans suffer from it!
We left Darwin around 2200 with ETA Townsville at sunrise. The crew consisted of two pilots, a navigator and three signallers. I put the co-pilot in the left seat for the last hour or so while I took a much needed nap down the back of the Lincoln leaning against the main spar and using my parachute as a pillow. A sixth sense woke me up with a startle and scrambling to my feet, I headed to the cockpit. There I saw both the radio operator and navigator fast asleep, heads resting on their tables. The co-pilot in the left seat was also slumped asleep with the aircraft on autopilot.
We were IMC at 1500 feet in low cloud and the morning sun was starting to poke through the mist. The co-pilot dicky seat was folded against the fuselage wall so I couldn’t take a seat. From a standing position I shoved the four engines to climb power and pulled back on the copilots control column and shook the co-pilot awake. Within a few seconds we came out on top of cloud at 2000 ft into the bright sunlight. Dead ahead on track by about ten miles was Palm Island.
If that sixth sense had not awakened me we would have likely flown into Palm Island 300 feet below its peak.
I’d be surprised if anyone who has flown long haul crossing more than 5 time zones with min rest between duty periods hasn’t had the overwhelming urge to nod off by the third duty day.
Fatigue is cumulative, rest unfortunately is not .
Fatigue is cumulative, rest unfortunately is not .
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Wow, what a story. I hope you never had to make use of that sixth sense ever again though.
Is there no "dead-man switch" that one can activate which would sound an alarm to prevent falling asleep unless deactivated every X minutes?
The very reason why such a device may be used could indeed indicate that the crew themselves believe they may need need it, therefore suggesting that a chance of fatigue exists which in turn would be contravening to their obligations under CAO 48.1.
Is there no "dead-man switch" that one can activate which would sound an alarm to prevent falling asleep unless deactivated every X minutes?
The very reason why such a device may be used could indeed indicate that the crew themselves believe they may need need it, therefore suggesting that a chance of fatigue exists which in turn would be contravening to their obligations under CAO 48.1.
Last edited by Okihara; 28th Jun 2019 at 04:16.
Smart pilots set their iPhone alarm.