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Snoozing pilot misses landing - The Australian

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Snoozing pilot misses landing - The Australian

Old 25th Jun 2019, 12:38
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
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Originally Posted by compressor stall View Post
Well he was rested before he continued his shift as he'd just had a good nap....
Too true!!
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 15:34
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Cool too funny

I recall back in the day the crusty old ATO that turned up for my Grade 3 instructors rating test, me s%^ting bricks for a week prior.
After the chalk and talk I took him out and diligently showed him my mighty 172. Off we went, somewhere down the lane of entry he fell asleep the first time. What to do - wake him or let him snooze?
I let him go till the training area, then did the old gentle elbow.
His eyes tight shut during most of the sequences. Funny as all get out now I think about it. (and yes a snooze on the way home)

Not sure why anyone surprised at a driver (back on topic) falling asleep for a bit. Give back of the clock night freight a go - all around a day job and studies and see how long it is before you (hopefully) wake up at the wheel....
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 19:44
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 21:50
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
the same aviation “expert” that claimed the recent 737 crashes were not a fault with the aircraft....
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 22:59
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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the same aviation “expert” that claimed the recent 737 crashes were not a fault with the aircraft...
.

He also doesn't understand the role of the ATSB, they have no power to fine or take action against anyone. CASA have been dragging the chain on fatigue rules for years so why not blame them?
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 23:38
  #66 (permalink)  
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the same aviation “expert”

Putting to one side the possibility of misreporting ... I haven't spoken with Neil for many years, don't know if he has any/significant pilot experience, but he is a well-experienced maintainer/regulatory chap so not entirely without expertise.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 03:15
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Surely a "pilot-in-command" has some responsibility for .... being in a state fit to fly?
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 04:19
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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No sleep in 24 hours despite not working within five days, landing at YKII and then making the decision to continue working.

“If you’ve been on leave for five days before a shift, there’s nothing as an organisation we could’ve done,” said Mr Tucker, adding the pilot was aware of his roster before he went on leave.

And you see no responsibility with the pilot at all? In this example is there really anyway to actually blame anyone else other than the PIC, or is this just a default setting for you? What length will you not go to to bear a grudge with CASA or the ATSB??

Everyone makes mistakes, and I bet he's a better pilot because of it. Does that somehow mean the blame lies somewhere else? We all have to take responsibility for what we could have done better.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 08:06
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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LFA, study the double bind problem. Does the pilot want to keep their job or fly safely?

“Double binds are often utilized as a form of control without open coercion—the use of confusion makes them both difficult to respond to as well as to resist.[2]:271-278.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 10:38
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by john_tullamarine View Post
the same aviation “expert”

Putting to one side the possibility of misreporting ... I haven't spoken with Neil for many years, don't know if he has any/significant pilot experience, but he is a well-experienced maintainer/regulatory chap so not entirely without expertise.
John, I have significant pilot expertise, but sure as hell wouldn't hold myself to be an expert on things maintenance nor regulatory. In my opinion, oxygen thieving aviation commentators are just after column inches, to hell with accuracy. All the while aided and abetted by ignorant journos who make news out of the fact that an aviation expert [sic] made such and such comments, rather than do any investigative journalism themselves.



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Old 26th Jun 2019, 12:08
  #71 (permalink)  
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'twas an observation, only. Like you, I prefer that folks stay in their areas of discipline competence when pontificating ... (not always that easy unless stone cold sober, of course ..)
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 12:18
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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I


​​​​Like it or not your and your employer’s responsibilities regarding this type of situation are described very clearly.

Seems to me if the pilot had fallen asleep on a previous sector due to lack of sleep both the pilot and the operator should have ‘reason to believe’ the pilot’s fatigue will affect subsequent flights.

Both pilot and operator seem to have failed in their responsibilities under CAO 48.1
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 14:19
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Half the planes flying around the world on back of the clock , red eye ops have sleepy , tired or fatigued crew up the front . Airlines pushing FTL’s right to the limit , reducing crew numbers combined with less experienced pilots all adding to the army of pilots trying to stay awake . I was doing a red eye recently and other pilot asleep under a legal controlled rest procedure . I’m staying quite lights low headset on staring into the darkness trying to keep alert . Reminded of the promair days but instead of 300 crays behind me I got 300 pax .
Fatigue is a huge issue at all levels and can’t just say it’s legal and it will be ok !
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 23:56
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Toruk Macto View Post
Half the planes flying around the world on back of the clock , red eye ops have sleepy , tired or fatigued crew up the front . Airlines pushing FTL’s right to the limit , reducing crew numbers combined with less experienced pilots all adding to the army of pilots trying to stay awake . I was doing a red eye recently and other pilot asleep under a legal controlled rest procedure . I’m staying quite lights low headset on staring into the darkness trying to keep alert . Reminded of the promair days but instead of 300 crays behind me I got 300 pax .
Fatigue is a huge issue at all levels and can’t just say it’s legal and it will be ok !
Very true. Fatigue will NEVER be addressed fully, we are humans not machines therefore we have a brain that is effected y just about everything known to mankind. The biggest fatigue issue I believe is commercial pressure, it's very real & that too has a cumulative effect like the lack of sleep itself. Min rest periods (9 or 10 hrs or whatever you DON'T get those hours as rest), max duty hrs and a forever changing roster all means the holes in the cheese are just waiting to be lined up!
Glad I am all but out of that these days, I made it thru the dodgem course unscathed....phew!
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 00:22
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Ya gotta feel for the bloke no matter what. How many of us here can honesty say they have never had an unplanned cat nap, micro sleep, he’ll sleep even.

Single pilot freight ops, night, probably one of the toughest gigs out there. Remember the ole can’t remember the operator, but days single pilot METRO night freight. Hmm there have been a couple of Cessna 210’s land unplanned due to issues like this. They have been around since we started pushing limits. As a previous poster pointed out FTL are seen as hard limits and operators want to get as much out of a driver as possible.

Back of the clock flying I used to enjoy when I had a roster full of it, one could get used to it. Rostering where it chops and changes is just wrong. Problem is that again we are our own worst enemy as if reports are not constantly filled then what will happen? Pilots seem reluctant to file fatigue reports/ tiredness related reports. Management (especially ex Pilots) seem to forget how demanding this flying can be.

All of us who came through GA probably have an inkling to the real big picture in this case.

Stay awake out there....... Tripple espresso please.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 01:42
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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You just reminded me in the early noughties, I seem to recall there was a night freight C210 heading south from Darwin, pilot fell asleep, woke up out of range of navaids (no GPS) and that landed not far from the rock on a salt pan at dawn?
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 14:03
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of pilots would have fallen asleep briefly especially in these sorts of Ops where it's an early morning dep & that drone in smooth air would dull ones senses at times, fatigue is a hideous thing, ALL humans suffer from it!
Amen to that. In another era we flew Lincoln bombers on shipping surveillance Darwin to Townsville via Horn island then followed the coast between 10-50 miles out to sea from Horn island to Townsville. The last 50 miles or so took us on direct track over Palm Island. Total flight time around 8-10 hours depending on ships spotted.

We left Darwin around 2200 with ETA Townsville at sunrise. The crew consisted of two pilots, a navigator and three signallers. I put the co-pilot in the left seat for the last hour or so while I took a much needed nap down the back of the Lincoln leaning against the main spar and using my parachute as a pillow. A sixth sense woke me up with a startle and scrambling to my feet, I headed to the cockpit. There I saw both the radio operator and navigator fast asleep, heads resting on their tables. The co-pilot in the left seat was also slumped asleep with the aircraft on autopilot.

We were IMC at 1500 feet in low cloud and the morning sun was starting to poke through the mist. The co-pilot dicky seat was folded against the fuselage wall so I couldn’t take a seat. From a standing position I shoved the four engines to climb power and pulled back on the copilots control column and shook the co-pilot awake. Within a few seconds we came out on top of cloud at 2000 ft into the bright sunlight. Dead ahead on track by about ten miles was Palm Island.

If that sixth sense had not awakened me we would have likely flown into Palm Island 300 feet below its peak.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 21:19
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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I’d be surprised if anyone who has flown long haul crossing more than 5 time zones with min rest between duty periods hasn’t had the overwhelming urge to nod off by the third duty day.
Fatigue is cumulative, rest unfortunately is not .
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 21:23
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Wow, what a story. I hope you never had to make use of that sixth sense ever again though.
Is there no "dead-man switch" that one can activate which would sound an alarm to prevent falling asleep unless deactivated every X minutes?
The very reason why such a device may be used could indeed indicate that the crew themselves believe they may need need it, therefore suggesting that a chance of fatigue exists which in turn would be contravening to their obligations under CAO 48.1.

Last edited by Okihara; 28th Jun 2019 at 04:16.
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Old 28th Jun 2019, 00:14
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Okihara View Post
Wow, what a story. I hope you never had to make use of that sixth sense ever again though.
Is there no "dead-man switch" that one can activate which would sound an alarm to prevent falling asleep unless deactivated every X minutes?
They have that on the Indian Pacific trains.

Smart pilots set their iPhone alarm.
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