Alaska Airlines or Air NZ??? Any tips from fellow pilots?
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Alaska Airlines or Air NZ??? Any tips from fellow pilots?
Hi mates,
Kind of stuck in a crossroads here in my aviation career. I currently am a A320 FO for Alaska Airlines in the states ( formerly Virgin America). Just finished 2 years here with the company and live in SFO. Just got my NZ residency and was considering Air NZ since the wife is a kiwi and I have family down in AKL as well.
Looking for any tips or advice from Kiwi pilots. Rosters, Pay, Quality of Life, Upgrade times? I am now in to my mid/late 20's now so still have some years to fly.
We recently got a new contract with a decent pay bump and nice retirement. The thing is that the future of Alaska Airlines merging in the future with another airline is highly likely as airline in the states are swallowing their competiotion and getting bigger.
Air NZ is a great airline and I love taking them. Also the world of Long/Midhaul flying has always been keen on my mind.
Appreciate any words or advice.
Cheers !
Kind of stuck in a crossroads here in my aviation career. I currently am a A320 FO for Alaska Airlines in the states ( formerly Virgin America). Just finished 2 years here with the company and live in SFO. Just got my NZ residency and was considering Air NZ since the wife is a kiwi and I have family down in AKL as well.
Looking for any tips or advice from Kiwi pilots. Rosters, Pay, Quality of Life, Upgrade times? I am now in to my mid/late 20's now so still have some years to fly.
We recently got a new contract with a decent pay bump and nice retirement. The thing is that the future of Alaska Airlines merging in the future with another airline is highly likely as airline in the states are swallowing their competiotion and getting bigger.
Air NZ is a great airline and I love taking them. Also the world of Long/Midhaul flying has always been keen on my mind.
Appreciate any words or advice.
Cheers !
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Hi sfopilot207
I see your captains managed a 16-29% increase in pay and the FOs a 28-45% increase with 3% increases for the two following years. Well done!
“New pilot contract at Alaska raises pay to levels just below largest U.S. airlines” - The Seattle Times.
How did the negotiations go? Did ALPA /Pilots have to threaten strike action or was the management well informed of the current supply and demand issue and accepted a significant pay rise was overdue?
I only ask because down here in Aus and NZ we have been accepting only 2-3% inflationary adjustments for years and we have let pay in real terms lag far behind from what it used to be.
Air NZ had a 2.5% increase for the last 2 year contract and I hear their next one won’t be much different... again going backwards. They really need a 15-25% increase to get back to where they were!
AirNZ have been hiring a significant number of experienced guys from overseas (including lots of kiwis returning home after doing their overseas experience) as a result of limited suitable candidates from NZ .
If your wife is a kiwi and you are eventually going to live in NZ I would say get in to Air NZ ASAP as it is a seniority based airline!
I see your captains managed a 16-29% increase in pay and the FOs a 28-45% increase with 3% increases for the two following years. Well done!
“New pilot contract at Alaska raises pay to levels just below largest U.S. airlines” - The Seattle Times.
How did the negotiations go? Did ALPA /Pilots have to threaten strike action or was the management well informed of the current supply and demand issue and accepted a significant pay rise was overdue?
I only ask because down here in Aus and NZ we have been accepting only 2-3% inflationary adjustments for years and we have let pay in real terms lag far behind from what it used to be.
Air NZ had a 2.5% increase for the last 2 year contract and I hear their next one won’t be much different... again going backwards. They really need a 15-25% increase to get back to where they were!
AirNZ have been hiring a significant number of experienced guys from overseas (including lots of kiwis returning home after doing their overseas experience) as a result of limited suitable candidates from NZ .
If your wife is a kiwi and you are eventually going to live in NZ I would say get in to Air NZ ASAP as it is a seniority based airline!
At one time ANZ had the longest time to upgrade in the world, 20 years. What's the demographic of the current Captains ? If they're mostly in their 40s you could have a very long wait, if they're mostly 60 plus then jump at it.
There's likely a few younger Widebody Captains on the 787 (Late 40's early 50's) but most will be late 50's or older, especially on the 777.
It's a slow start at Air NZ. With ~1000 Jet Pilots, FO 787 and Capt A320 sit ~650 on the list so that's 3-400 retirements away assuming no expansion. Retirements are apparently going to average ~30 year for the foreseeable future.
Someone who's mid-late 20's, could probably expect a Widebody command around 45-50, which is much better than some of the FO's in their 60's still waiting to upgrade.
Ultimately, you don't join Air NZ for the upgrades. You join in the hopes that you'll retire here and never have to look for work again.
How did the negotiations go? Did ALPA /Pilots have to threaten strike action or was the management well informed of the current supply and demand issue and accepted a significant pay rise was overdue?
I only ask because down here in Aus and NZ we have been accepting only 2-3% inflationary adjustments for years and we have let pay in real terms lag far behind from what it used to be.
I only ask because down here in Aus and NZ we have been accepting only 2-3% inflationary adjustments for years and we have let pay in real terms lag far behind from what it used to be.
Where do you want to live?
You would possibly be joining Air NZ as a Second Officer. So at a guess, $120-130K NZD. Thats a educated guess, others can firm those numbers up.
Living in Auckland isn’t what is used to be. Its become expensive, no doubt you would be used to that sort of situation living in SFO. However think of the same sort of costs relative to the pay, but minus any of the benefits of SFO in terms of infrastructure i.e public transport or culture. Housing isn’t cheap, average house now circa $1 million NZD in AKL.
Many commute to Auckland from the regions, for the better lifestyle and relative increase in bang for buck. As a SO, I believe on the long haul roster it is perfectly do-able. Just expect once or twice a year to have a reserve line for the entire 28 days and expect to stay in AKL for that roster.
Occasionally they are taking new hires direct into FO A320 because many of the current SOs are happy with the lifestyle and don’t change fleets. From what I hear, they are working relatively harder than the SOs on the A320. You probably couldn’t commute on the 320 as it is a mix of domestic and short haul international. Pay slightly higher for A320 FO.
Upgrade on A320, ball park 3-5 years. My numbers maybe out. Upgrade to widebody, hmmm I hate to think, 20 years plus? Depends on retirement rate, which has been steady lately and projected to increase.
There are other operators if you don’t want to do long haul or want a slightly better chance of a quicker upgrade.
-Virgin Australia NZ, AKL and CHC bases. 737NGs
-Jetconnect/QANTAS, might pay to do some research on the current IR situation. B737NGs. Has AKL base.
-Jetstar NZ, A320. AKL base...
Pros and cons of each too. Air NZ is relatively the most secure...
I think the basis of your decision maybe where do you want to live and eventually retire?
You would possibly be joining Air NZ as a Second Officer. So at a guess, $120-130K NZD. Thats a educated guess, others can firm those numbers up.
Living in Auckland isn’t what is used to be. Its become expensive, no doubt you would be used to that sort of situation living in SFO. However think of the same sort of costs relative to the pay, but minus any of the benefits of SFO in terms of infrastructure i.e public transport or culture. Housing isn’t cheap, average house now circa $1 million NZD in AKL.
Many commute to Auckland from the regions, for the better lifestyle and relative increase in bang for buck. As a SO, I believe on the long haul roster it is perfectly do-able. Just expect once or twice a year to have a reserve line for the entire 28 days and expect to stay in AKL for that roster.
Occasionally they are taking new hires direct into FO A320 because many of the current SOs are happy with the lifestyle and don’t change fleets. From what I hear, they are working relatively harder than the SOs on the A320. You probably couldn’t commute on the 320 as it is a mix of domestic and short haul international. Pay slightly higher for A320 FO.
Upgrade on A320, ball park 3-5 years. My numbers maybe out. Upgrade to widebody, hmmm I hate to think, 20 years plus? Depends on retirement rate, which has been steady lately and projected to increase.
There are other operators if you don’t want to do long haul or want a slightly better chance of a quicker upgrade.
-Virgin Australia NZ, AKL and CHC bases. 737NGs
-Jetconnect/QANTAS, might pay to do some research on the current IR situation. B737NGs. Has AKL base.
-Jetstar NZ, A320. AKL base...
Pros and cons of each too. Air NZ is relatively the most secure...
I think the basis of your decision maybe where do you want to live and eventually retire?
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here is the article.
we have some catching up to do down under!
"
A new combined labor contract for the pilots of Alaska Airlines and Virgin America, finalized Monday, provides hefty wage increases that bring the highest pay rate to $251 per flight hour, with increases of 3 percent in 2018 and in 2019.
The current top of the pay scale is $216.46 per flight hour for an Alaska Airlines captain and $189 for a Virgin America captain (although no Virgin pilots have yet reached that 12-year level).
The average pay increase is 16 percent for an Alaska Airlines captain and 29 percent for a Virgin America captain.
The new contract, effective Wednesday and running through April 2020, also accelerates the pay of younger pilots by increasing the ratio of first-officer pay from 31 percent of a captain’s pay in year one to 41 percent, with corresponding increases in that ratio throughout the first five years of employment.
The contract provides an average wage increase of 28 percent for Alaska Airlines first officers and 45 percent for Virgin America first officers.
The contract terms were decided by an arbitration panel that ruled compensation for Alaska Air pilots should be “ranked just behind the four leading industry carriers … American, Delta, United (and) Southwest.”
The award places Alaska pilots at 5 to 6 percent below the highest rate in the airline industry.
It also includes improvements to the 401(k) retirement plan for the roughly 1,500 pilots, out of a total 2,800 Alaska Airlines pilots, who are not part of the company’s defined-benefit plan.
Competing on low cost
The pilots union, the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), expressed disappointment at the pay gap left between Alaska and the larger airlines, saying the contract’s terms would make it harder for Alaska to recruit and retain pilots.
The new contract “leaves the combined pilot group well behind our peers at other successful airlines,” said Capt. Chris Notaro, chairman of ALPA’s Alaska Master Executive Council. “We remain disappointed.”
However, the arbitrators ruled that Alaska needs the slightly lower wages to be competitive because it is significantly smaller than the top four airlines and has a much more restricted route network.
Alaska “cannot compete against Delta, American and United on the basis of network or on the frequency or breadth of flight offerings — it must maintain low costs to compete successfully,” the arbitrators wrote in their decision.
Additionally, the panel said Alaska is facing increased competition from low-cost and ultra-low-cost carriers and so its business model rests upon “the critical assumption of a low-cost, low-fare airline.”
Alaska Airlines spokeswoman Bobbie Egan said management respects the decision.
“Our commitment is to keep our company strong with low costs, low fares and great experience for our guests while paying competitively. It is a delicate balance,” Egan said.
The union had asked for a top rate of $261 per flight hour, with increases of 3.45 percent in 2018 and 3.7 percent in 2019.
The company had offered $246 per flight hour with 2 percent increases in 2018 and 2019.
Dominic Gates: 206-464-2963 or [email protected]
"
we have some catching up to do down under!
"
A new combined labor contract for the pilots of Alaska Airlines and Virgin America, finalized Monday, provides hefty wage increases that bring the highest pay rate to $251 per flight hour, with increases of 3 percent in 2018 and in 2019.
The current top of the pay scale is $216.46 per flight hour for an Alaska Airlines captain and $189 for a Virgin America captain (although no Virgin pilots have yet reached that 12-year level).
The average pay increase is 16 percent for an Alaska Airlines captain and 29 percent for a Virgin America captain.
The new contract, effective Wednesday and running through April 2020, also accelerates the pay of younger pilots by increasing the ratio of first-officer pay from 31 percent of a captain’s pay in year one to 41 percent, with corresponding increases in that ratio throughout the first five years of employment.
The contract provides an average wage increase of 28 percent for Alaska Airlines first officers and 45 percent for Virgin America first officers.
The contract terms were decided by an arbitration panel that ruled compensation for Alaska Air pilots should be “ranked just behind the four leading industry carriers … American, Delta, United (and) Southwest.”
The award places Alaska pilots at 5 to 6 percent below the highest rate in the airline industry.
It also includes improvements to the 401(k) retirement plan for the roughly 1,500 pilots, out of a total 2,800 Alaska Airlines pilots, who are not part of the company’s defined-benefit plan.
Competing on low cost
The pilots union, the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), expressed disappointment at the pay gap left between Alaska and the larger airlines, saying the contract’s terms would make it harder for Alaska to recruit and retain pilots.
The new contract “leaves the combined pilot group well behind our peers at other successful airlines,” said Capt. Chris Notaro, chairman of ALPA’s Alaska Master Executive Council. “We remain disappointed.”
However, the arbitrators ruled that Alaska needs the slightly lower wages to be competitive because it is significantly smaller than the top four airlines and has a much more restricted route network.
Alaska “cannot compete against Delta, American and United on the basis of network or on the frequency or breadth of flight offerings — it must maintain low costs to compete successfully,” the arbitrators wrote in their decision.
Additionally, the panel said Alaska is facing increased competition from low-cost and ultra-low-cost carriers and so its business model rests upon “the critical assumption of a low-cost, low-fare airline.”
Alaska Airlines spokeswoman Bobbie Egan said management respects the decision.
“Our commitment is to keep our company strong with low costs, low fares and great experience for our guests while paying competitively. It is a delicate balance,” Egan said.
The union had asked for a top rate of $261 per flight hour, with increases of 3.45 percent in 2018 and 3.7 percent in 2019.
The company had offered $246 per flight hour with 2 percent increases in 2018 and 2019.
Dominic Gates: 206-464-2963 or [email protected]
"
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Hi Guys Thanks for the feedback.
Here are some of the details of our New TA with Alaska/Virgin. As of April 1st, 2018 :
1st year FO Pay : $ 89.89/hr which comes out to ~ $90k USD/Yr
12th year FO Pay : $173.74/hr ~ $174k USD/Yr
1st year CA Pay : $219.25/hr ~ $220k USD/Yr
12th year CA Pay: $258.53/hr ~ $259k USD/Yr (* Hr rates x 1000)
These rates will go up another 3% for April 2019, and then our contract will be up for negotiations again in 2020.
We also get 15% of our annual wages into a retirement fund and about a 7-10% profit sharing bonus depending on company performance for the financial year.
With the exchange rates our 12 yr CA's will make close to what a WB CA likely will make on Air NZ from what I have heard.
As far as Command times, It is running about 5-6 years on the Airbus Fleet and about 4-5 years on the Boeing Fleet . This is the place where I am a little stuck at since I just finished 2 years here and so command in not to far away.
In the great US we are governed by the Railway Labor Act, which is basically a century year old labor law that makes it illegal for pilots to simply go on strike. Instead we have to go through a lengthy process of mediation and other bloody hoops to fight for anything we want.
All these rates we a result of forced arbitration by company management, since they did not want to honor our unions request and therefore was sent to a arbitration lawyer who whipped up these new pay rates.
I always was keen on WB flying. I am not sure if I will be ever able to get that here. Rumors are that there is another merger for us with another major in the not to distant future.
Anyone one care to chime in on their experience of WB flying vs. NB flying? How is the lifestyle, fatigue, ect..???
Cheers for all the posts on this thread so far!! Really gaining alot of info.
Here are some of the details of our New TA with Alaska/Virgin. As of April 1st, 2018 :
1st year FO Pay : $ 89.89/hr which comes out to ~ $90k USD/Yr
12th year FO Pay : $173.74/hr ~ $174k USD/Yr
1st year CA Pay : $219.25/hr ~ $220k USD/Yr
12th year CA Pay: $258.53/hr ~ $259k USD/Yr (* Hr rates x 1000)
These rates will go up another 3% for April 2019, and then our contract will be up for negotiations again in 2020.
We also get 15% of our annual wages into a retirement fund and about a 7-10% profit sharing bonus depending on company performance for the financial year.
With the exchange rates our 12 yr CA's will make close to what a WB CA likely will make on Air NZ from what I have heard.
As far as Command times, It is running about 5-6 years on the Airbus Fleet and about 4-5 years on the Boeing Fleet . This is the place where I am a little stuck at since I just finished 2 years here and so command in not to far away.
In the great US we are governed by the Railway Labor Act, which is basically a century year old labor law that makes it illegal for pilots to simply go on strike. Instead we have to go through a lengthy process of mediation and other bloody hoops to fight for anything we want.
All these rates we a result of forced arbitration by company management, since they did not want to honor our unions request and therefore was sent to a arbitration lawyer who whipped up these new pay rates.
I always was keen on WB flying. I am not sure if I will be ever able to get that here. Rumors are that there is another merger for us with another major in the not to distant future.
Anyone one care to chime in on their experience of WB flying vs. NB flying? How is the lifestyle, fatigue, ect..???
Cheers for all the posts on this thread so far!! Really gaining alot of info.
