Unintended 457 consequences could ground airlines
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With all due respect. Why do you assume every pilot wants to be an airline pilot? I'm GA for life, yet getting anyone to believe that is a struggle in itself, and pilots like myself are placed in the same basket.
I'd be happy flying a SE turbine for life if the pay and conditions were enough to at least make ends meet, and the endorsement to go with it.
As an employer, surely you'd be happy to pay for some initial training if you had a guy/girl who loves being in GA and could potentially give you years, or decades of loyal service. Surely that has to be more economical?
I'd be happy flying a SE turbine for life if the pay and conditions were enough to at least make ends meet, and the endorsement to go with it.
As an employer, surely you'd be happy to pay for some initial training if you had a guy/girl who loves being in GA and could potentially give you years, or decades of loyal service. Surely that has to be more economical?
flying a commuter twin like the SAAB is the top of the tree i want to get to. not interested in the airline lifestyle.
Something like Sydney seaplanes would be perfect, could easily see my flying days out with that gig for the next few decades...
but, no, no one will invest in training, and as someone mentioned earlier, it apears to be more than an aviation thing.. seen any TAFE students lately?
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"And I now hear a person who could do a lot to reduce costs has been rejected by the CASA Chairman and Board for consideration for the top job.
Why are they doing this?"
It's really quite simple Dick.
Self Interest.
There is a cadre of people in the top echelon of CAsA known as the "Iron Ring" who have been there for years, they are the ones who have lead Australian aviation to the bottom.
They know full well that to employ someone like Mike Smith, a proven reformer, would jeopardise their position at the trough. They are also aware that with their level of incompetence they'd be unlikely to find employment anywhere else.
From what people who have experienced the CAsA cesspit and left tell me, they left because they were competent people and recognised their talents would never be utilised. I'm told that there are rafts of people within CAsA who are only there because its the only place where they can study for their degrees, or masters and receive a massive salary in the process. Its no wonder it takes months, even years, to obtain make work approvals when half the staff are working on their own self interests rather than the job they are paid to do.
I know one company trying to get an aircraft on their AOC, got charged 16 hours for an FOI to check that a manufacturer supplied, FAA approved QRH, exactly matched the content of the manufacturers, FAA approved flight manual.
It is self interest and a reflection of the incompetence in the top echelon of CAsA that has produced the folly of our regulatory debacle, half a billion dollars of taxpayer dollars fritted away and more in the pipeline, to achieve absolutely nothing except a massive cost burden that has brought a whole industry to its knees.
Australia is just not being smart like the Kiwi's. Self interest right across the public service in Australia from energy policy, aviation,to almost every corner of industry is driving the mind boggling mountain of red tape, strangling everything in its path.
Why are they doing this?"
It's really quite simple Dick.
Self Interest.
There is a cadre of people in the top echelon of CAsA known as the "Iron Ring" who have been there for years, they are the ones who have lead Australian aviation to the bottom.
They know full well that to employ someone like Mike Smith, a proven reformer, would jeopardise their position at the trough. They are also aware that with their level of incompetence they'd be unlikely to find employment anywhere else.
From what people who have experienced the CAsA cesspit and left tell me, they left because they were competent people and recognised their talents would never be utilised. I'm told that there are rafts of people within CAsA who are only there because its the only place where they can study for their degrees, or masters and receive a massive salary in the process. Its no wonder it takes months, even years, to obtain make work approvals when half the staff are working on their own self interests rather than the job they are paid to do.
I know one company trying to get an aircraft on their AOC, got charged 16 hours for an FOI to check that a manufacturer supplied, FAA approved QRH, exactly matched the content of the manufacturers, FAA approved flight manual.
It is self interest and a reflection of the incompetence in the top echelon of CAsA that has produced the folly of our regulatory debacle, half a billion dollars of taxpayer dollars fritted away and more in the pipeline, to achieve absolutely nothing except a massive cost burden that has brought a whole industry to its knees.
Australia is just not being smart like the Kiwi's. Self interest right across the public service in Australia from energy policy, aviation,to almost every corner of industry is driving the mind boggling mountain of red tape, strangling everything in its path.
457s are a two edged sword, they price Australian workers out but lower costs for consumers, and we are both. Restaurants can't afford to open on public holidays because by the time penalty rates are factored in, a nights trading will cost the owner money. They few that do open stick on a 20% surcharge making it unaffordable for many consumers.
It's unusual in many cities to find an Australian driving a taxi, Indian students who are happy with $10 an hour are the norm. Few people want to pay fares that would attract Aussie drivers.
If 457s could be used for restaurant staff you could eat out for less than half current prices but unemployment would increase.
There should be a levy paid for each 457 visa holder employed, that way companies could still fill positions where there are no qualified locals but an Australian would always be cheaper and it would be worth investing in training them.
It's unusual in many cities to find an Australian driving a taxi, Indian students who are happy with $10 an hour are the norm. Few people want to pay fares that would attract Aussie drivers.
If 457s could be used for restaurant staff you could eat out for less than half current prices but unemployment would increase.
There should be a levy paid for each 457 visa holder employed, that way companies could still fill positions where there are no qualified locals but an Australian would always be cheaper and it would be worth investing in training them.
The only government funding going towards GA is the massive training loans/Ponzi schemes which have been discussed at length elsewhere.
The first step, Raptor, would be for the Minister for Transport to rein in the property developers who have a stranglehold on the capital city airports. The only one who ever stood up to them was Mark Vaile.
Agree with you the massive wastage of money on the VET schemes (and it continues, although slightly less) could have made a massive difference to existing pilots ready to jump up to the next step instead of leaving masses of brand new CPLs looking for non existent jobs at that 150-200 hour level...if they were able to qualify before the administrators moved in because of the people enjoying the ride on the gravy train made all the money disappear.
Agree with you the massive wastage of money on the VET schemes (and it continues, although slightly less) could have made a massive difference to existing pilots ready to jump up to the next step instead of leaving masses of brand new CPLs looking for non existent jobs at that 150-200 hour level...if they were able to qualify before the administrators moved in because of the people enjoying the ride on the gravy train made all the money disappear.
Raptor090, there have been some moves recently to try and rein in the number of students being trained with VET, they've recently introduced a requirement to prove that the Schools are actively assisting their students in finding meaningful employment in the industry so they aren't just churning them out and leaving them high and dry. Small move but good to see.
Some quotes from the AFR seaplanes and 457 article.
The only concession I'd give him is the Chinese language issue, but we have immigrants from China and these workers should be available through standard employment practices.
....
The five pilots Mr Shaw employs in winter and the eight in summer are mainly from Canada and the United States on 457 visas but aeroplane pilots have joined a slew of occupations now ineligible for the new visas announced by the government this week.
"It's a terrible situation. If I put an ad out for a seaplane pilot in Australia, I would barely get a whimper," he told AFR Weekend.
"That skills market doesn't exist here and, ...
... flying culture often means those qualified tend to use smaller tourism companies as a stepping stone towards larger airlines such as Qantas.
...
Mr Shaw's business is the largest in Australia and turns over about $8 million a year. The pilots fly between 25,000 and 30,000 domestic and international tourists a year from its base in Rose Bay.
... Mr Shaw's business is seasonal and he employs about 30 people in the summer and 20 in winter; the vast majority of them are foreign nationals on a variety of visas.
"It's not just pilots. As I've found advertising for our new hospitality arm, whether it be entry level hospitality or administration staff, virtually everyone we receive applications from are foreign nationals who are here on a variety of visas.
...
Sydney Seaplanes courts the Chinese market and has employed market specialists on 457 visas before, in a bid to drum up Asian business.
... Mr Shaw said the new English language laws were an unnecessary interference in an open market, especially when businesses are looking to grow.
...
"As long as I can communicate with them, I don't care if their English is not quite perfect. I want their Chinese to be perfect.
"I don't need the government to tell me how and at what level my potential employee needs to be able to speak English.
"A person's ability to speak English should be determined by the market, not the government. This is not a person to become a citizen, this is a person to fill a temporary role."
Temporary roles that never end. It seems Mr. Shaw seems to run his whole business on 457 visas and is just rorting the system. If you pay people enough, they'll do the job. Giving jobs to 3rd world people will only make Australia part of the 3rd world.The five pilots Mr Shaw employs in winter and the eight in summer are mainly from Canada and the United States on 457 visas but aeroplane pilots have joined a slew of occupations now ineligible for the new visas announced by the government this week.
"It's a terrible situation. If I put an ad out for a seaplane pilot in Australia, I would barely get a whimper," he told AFR Weekend.
"That skills market doesn't exist here and, ...
... flying culture often means those qualified tend to use smaller tourism companies as a stepping stone towards larger airlines such as Qantas.
...
Mr Shaw's business is the largest in Australia and turns over about $8 million a year. The pilots fly between 25,000 and 30,000 domestic and international tourists a year from its base in Rose Bay.
... Mr Shaw's business is seasonal and he employs about 30 people in the summer and 20 in winter; the vast majority of them are foreign nationals on a variety of visas.
"It's not just pilots. As I've found advertising for our new hospitality arm, whether it be entry level hospitality or administration staff, virtually everyone we receive applications from are foreign nationals who are here on a variety of visas.
...
Sydney Seaplanes courts the Chinese market and has employed market specialists on 457 visas before, in a bid to drum up Asian business.
... Mr Shaw said the new English language laws were an unnecessary interference in an open market, especially when businesses are looking to grow.
...
"As long as I can communicate with them, I don't care if their English is not quite perfect. I want their Chinese to be perfect.
"I don't need the government to tell me how and at what level my potential employee needs to be able to speak English.
"A person's ability to speak English should be determined by the market, not the government. This is not a person to become a citizen, this is a person to fill a temporary role."
The only concession I'd give him is the Chinese language issue, but we have immigrants from China and these workers should be available through standard employment practices.
Soon Australia will be just like the UK, low end jobs being done by cheap unskilled foreign labour because the locals get more on the dole.
Foreign workers can be a huge benefit to a country but only if their use is managed correctly.
Foreign workers can be a huge benefit to a country but only if their use is managed correctly.
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ManInJapan,
"It's not just pilots. As I've found advertising for our new hospitality arm, whether it be entry level hospitality or administration staff, virtually everyone we receive applications from are foreign nationals who are here on a variety of visas."
I very much doubt you are correct in your comment about 457's being Mr Shaws work force.
You with any small research will find that "hospitality staff" is the visa that many backpackers use (417) and given that these visa holders can only work a maximum of 6 months for any one employer in the year (can be extended to two) Mr Shaw's seasonal work is ideal for a Work Holiday Visa holder (these holders have trouble getting work due to employers wanting longer term employees).
As for the pilots, I assume you can prove he is lying?
In my field there are persons trained at certain places I wont risk employing, and certain persons from certain nations the same.
Personally I think his points are valid. He calls it "seasonal" you call it "Temporary" =a question for you - how long can a pilot be employed as a casual (temp) until the by law they must be employed as "full time".
"It's not just pilots. As I've found advertising for our new hospitality arm, whether it be entry level hospitality or administration staff, virtually everyone we receive applications from are foreign nationals who are here on a variety of visas."
I very much doubt you are correct in your comment about 457's being Mr Shaws work force.
You with any small research will find that "hospitality staff" is the visa that many backpackers use (417) and given that these visa holders can only work a maximum of 6 months for any one employer in the year (can be extended to two) Mr Shaw's seasonal work is ideal for a Work Holiday Visa holder (these holders have trouble getting work due to employers wanting longer term employees).
As for the pilots, I assume you can prove he is lying?
In my field there are persons trained at certain places I wont risk employing, and certain persons from certain nations the same.
Personally I think his points are valid. He calls it "seasonal" you call it "Temporary" =a question for you - how long can a pilot be employed as a casual (temp) until the by law they must be employed as "full time".
Maybe people don't want to work for him because he can only offer a few months of work and then what do they do as Seaplane Pilots? Perhaps if he worked towards being able to employ Pilots year round and took in rookies instead of requiring they have hundreds of water landings before they get there he'd have more who'd come and stay.
I'd love to know how many 457 Visas Air Whitsundays have to use...I doubt very many!
I'd love to know how many 457 Visas Air Whitsundays have to use...I doubt very many!
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Were would Air Whitsundays pilots be based?
How many have been there for 5 or 10 years?
What to you do to being able to employ people year round?
A crashed plane costs money to an employer - and I guess most put wheels down on low time pilots becoming Seaplane pilots! do you agree?
How many have been there for 5 or 10 years?
What to you do to being able to employ people year round?
A crashed plane costs money to an employer - and I guess most put wheels down on low time pilots becoming Seaplane pilots! do you agree?
Were would Air Whitsundays pilots be based?
But somewhere around Airlie Beach / Shute Harbour area in the Whitsundays region I'd say - North Queensland coast, if you arent familiar with the area. Flying a floatplane and all the backpackers you can handle...tough life! From their website it looks like a few of their pilots have been there a few years, their "Crew" page has a few brief bios. I'm guessing the tourist industry is fairly busy all year round, though less so through a couple of months of the wet season.
From the perspective of someone looking to work at a hypothetical floatplane operator that can only offer 6-8 months work out of a year, it sounds like a very insecure lifestyle. Good luck finding another employer so you can eat and pay rent for the other 6 months of the year, especially in one of the most expensive cities on Earth, when the second mob know that after a month or two of training they get 4 months useful work out of you then you return to the floatplane operator - or you stay with the second operator, and the floatplane operator is back to square one looking for another pilot prepared to sign up for a 6 month season. Now if a hypothetical operator offered enough pay in 8 months working that there was an effective full year's salary once 4 months unpaid leave was taken into account as part of the conditions of employment, I think there would be no shortage of pilots at all!
That would be a market based solution to a market based problem, which is something managers love when there's a glut of pilots, but don't like at all when there's a pilot shortage, so they turn to the politicians and newspaper columnists.
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Care to leak the accom/food costs for living on such an island? (wages too)
We can assume the Seaplane bloke offers ZERO in this area.
I don't think it is fair to tell a guy how to run a place - as long as it is with in rules.
I don't care if you don't like the rules BTW.
Have you ever paid for any other persons training? I have - so now I will no longer - they use you to self gain, with no respect.
We can assume the Seaplane bloke offers ZERO in this area.
I don't think it is fair to tell a guy how to run a place - as long as it is with in rules.
I don't care if you don't like the rules BTW.
Have you ever paid for any other persons training? I have - so now I will no longer - they use you to self gain, with no respect.
Care to leak the accom/food costs for living on such an island? (wages too)
I dont know what the wages are, but if they arent having trouble retaining staff at Air Whitsunday, as it appears, then I guess the wages/quality of life/cost of living equation is favourable enough to keep people happy and staying there.
Not telling anyone how they have to run their business, just observing that being employed for 6 months at a time, followed by 6 months of unemployment, would be unattractive, so if that is the possible offer at an employer in Sydney, qualified pilots may look elsewhere when there are other opportunities out there offering a more stable career path. Maybe something needs to change to make the positions more appealing now 457 visas appear to be off the table.
Last edited by De_flieger; 3rd May 2017 at 13:53. Reason: Clarify who does what where
If anyone is serious about floatplanes, have a look at operators in the Maldives. Twin Otter Captains are on a good deal and go to work in shorts and sandals.
Good chance of going troppo though, and the islands have a few political problems, but definitely on a seaplane pilots shortlist.
Good chance of going troppo though, and the islands have a few political problems, but definitely on a seaplane pilots shortlist.
Another issue that I find difficult to understand, and is particularly prevalent in he bizjet sector, is that when some employers are seeking staff with a particular type rating, they have no qualms about poaching someone who as been trained at the expense of another operator. In other words I'm not prepared to invest in training, but I want other employers to..........
Poaching happens all the time in the training side of things. Not worth investing time and effort mentoring a Grade 3 who will be poached by one of the big International schools as soon as they are out of supervision.
So why can't a bond work then? Are they really not enforceable if the employee walks?
E.G.
Award is $50k
Pay is $50k
Bond is $10k
Leave during bond period then pay for the year is only $40k, less than the award and not 'better off overall'.
Bond cancelled by FWA.
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If both schools pay the award and have some career progression why do they leave?
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Also often the full cost of training after a run away employee is a cost again!
Re advertise, read all applications, reply all/some applications, draw short lists, do initial interviews (who pays airfare if required), Internal discussions on who is still a contender, Do second interviews, get the idea yet that this is time of generally high paid staff and Chief Pilot that cost money when a bonded person jumps ship!!!
Not one of you would ever include these costs in your bond! maybe Raptor but that's a guess.
* What if (from memory) Mr Shaw only wishes to operate 6 months a year so he can have a life the other 6 months in a warmer climate?
Should he be denied this right he actually has, and be forced to employ 12 months of the year?
Re advertise, read all applications, reply all/some applications, draw short lists, do initial interviews (who pays airfare if required), Internal discussions on who is still a contender, Do second interviews, get the idea yet that this is time of generally high paid staff and Chief Pilot that cost money when a bonded person jumps ship!!!
Not one of you would ever include these costs in your bond! maybe Raptor but that's a guess.
* What if (from memory) Mr Shaw only wishes to operate 6 months a year so he can have a life the other 6 months in a warmer climate?
Should he be denied this right he actually has, and be forced to employ 12 months of the year?