What is the reason for separate military ATC?
Thread Starter
Come on. After thirty years the RAAF have not been able to put modern internationally proven safe procedures in at Williamtown.
Aircraft still get held for up to 30 minutes orbiting over the ocean at Anna Bay because the missed approach has to be protected by their 1950' s airspace procedures .
The FAA specialists I have attempted to explain this to have been amazed at the lack of leadership in following international proven safe procedures.
I would imagine that underneath it all there must be low morale over this resistance to change.
Even the UK controllers I have spoken to say there must be incompetent leadership. What other answer could there be for not copying the best?
Aircraft still get held for up to 30 minutes orbiting over the ocean at Anna Bay because the missed approach has to be protected by their 1950' s airspace procedures .
The FAA specialists I have attempted to explain this to have been amazed at the lack of leadership in following international proven safe procedures.
I would imagine that underneath it all there must be low morale over this resistance to change.
Even the UK controllers I have spoken to say there must be incompetent leadership. What other answer could there be for not copying the best?
Jeez, it's like a scratched record.
Dick, you started out on separate civil/military ATC systems, moved on (via a truly bizarre diversion into nuclear submarines) to the Seasprite debacle, and now we're back orbiting over Anna Bay, in a post that might as well be a cut-and-paste of about a dozen others that have appeared here in recent months.
On each issue, you've either been shot down or had your questions answered, and it makes no difference - you just ignore it and move smoothly on to your next hoary old chestnut.
What troubles me is that some of your comments (I'm thinking here of the 'agenda to damage Australia' one and the 'military fools and piston-powered submarine' stuff) are not opinionated or passionate, they're just downright....odd. Odd to the point of being genuinely worrying.
One's credibility is a hard-won and precious thing. It's a shame you seem intent on burning yours up with bizarre and silly statements. Maybe time to pause, take a deep breath, and figure out exactly what you think you're achieving here?
Dick, you started out on separate civil/military ATC systems, moved on (via a truly bizarre diversion into nuclear submarines) to the Seasprite debacle, and now we're back orbiting over Anna Bay, in a post that might as well be a cut-and-paste of about a dozen others that have appeared here in recent months.
On each issue, you've either been shot down or had your questions answered, and it makes no difference - you just ignore it and move smoothly on to your next hoary old chestnut.
What troubles me is that some of your comments (I'm thinking here of the 'agenda to damage Australia' one and the 'military fools and piston-powered submarine' stuff) are not opinionated or passionate, they're just downright....odd. Odd to the point of being genuinely worrying.
One's credibility is a hard-won and precious thing. It's a shame you seem intent on burning yours up with bizarre and silly statements. Maybe time to pause, take a deep breath, and figure out exactly what you think you're achieving here?
Thread Starter
My comments all link to exactly the same issue - the almost total lack of the military leadership being able to copy the best from around the world .
The last three CASA Chiefs have been military trained. Look at what has happened to our industry and the regulatory reform programme
GA is almost totally destroyed. Part 61 will contribute to that.
Over a year ago I had a meeting with Mt Skidmore and gave him a list of over twenty points that could save the industry money if actioned.
In the last 12 months not one change has taken place and not one person has contacted me from CASA to even discuss the points I brought up.
There is evidence that many of these ex military people are intentionally put in these positions to prevent any cost reducing reform.
I believe there is a plan in the Canberra bureaucracy to destroy the Non Airline aviation industry in Australia. The reason is obscure. Probably they don't really know why the group think operates in this way.
Many rational thinking people after reading my posts would not believe my credibility is being de graded. If some do- so be it.
The last three CASA Chiefs have been military trained. Look at what has happened to our industry and the regulatory reform programme
GA is almost totally destroyed. Part 61 will contribute to that.
Over a year ago I had a meeting with Mt Skidmore and gave him a list of over twenty points that could save the industry money if actioned.
In the last 12 months not one change has taken place and not one person has contacted me from CASA to even discuss the points I brought up.
There is evidence that many of these ex military people are intentionally put in these positions to prevent any cost reducing reform.
I believe there is a plan in the Canberra bureaucracy to destroy the Non Airline aviation industry in Australia. The reason is obscure. Probably they don't really know why the group think operates in this way.
Many rational thinking people after reading my posts would not believe my credibility is being de graded. If some do- so be it.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 24th May 2016 at 09:58.
Many rational thinking people after reading my posts would not believe my credibility is being de graded
Just my two cents.
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Dick, if your arguments and reasoning (combined with your ability to listen) are anything to go by in this and the 10 other threads you've started in the last few months, I can quite clearly see why none of the hierarchy are listening to you. You're a fanatical.
I'm just sitting, reading, hoping that the man I thought was a champion for true blue Aussie causes is not the ignorant, nonsensical poster on this forum. I hope every time I see you post that it's actually an imposter using your name on the forum to undermine you. I truly hope it is.
I'm just sitting, reading, hoping that the man I thought was a champion for true blue Aussie causes is not the ignorant, nonsensical poster on this forum. I hope every time I see you post that it's actually an imposter using your name on the forum to undermine you. I truly hope it is.
Thread Starter
All of my posts are about what is destroying GA in Australia.
Most of you have all been successful in supporting the status quo and the ratchet increase of costs for too long.
Not even game to stand by your own names. No one would take you seriously. I am making sure all of this is on record.
To general readers- most of my critics are or were most likely on the gravy plane.
As I have said. Get out of GA as soon as you can. The quicker the destruction is finalised by those who post on this website who don't understand that aviation safety must be affordable the quicker the fix can come in. I would say at least a decade away.
And yes. Re MDX. The pilot was never allowed to communicate to the radar operator. I fixed that despite resistance by the typical dopes. Some are so stupid they want to go back to pre AMATs where pilots OCTA in good radar coverage can only communicate to a 1930s type radio operator. Crazy.
I dare you to comment on why Ex RAAF Mr Skidmore has not addressed even one of my 20 cost saving points.
And what is fanatical about attempting to reduce 20 minutes of holding at Willy when other leading aviation countries can operate a system that has far more efficient procedures.
Yes. I am glad I am undermining the credibility of the Iron Colonels- I bet that's what you dont like. You have got away with your destruction of our industry for a long time and many of us are on to you!
Most of you have all been successful in supporting the status quo and the ratchet increase of costs for too long.
Not even game to stand by your own names. No one would take you seriously. I am making sure all of this is on record.
To general readers- most of my critics are or were most likely on the gravy plane.
As I have said. Get out of GA as soon as you can. The quicker the destruction is finalised by those who post on this website who don't understand that aviation safety must be affordable the quicker the fix can come in. I would say at least a decade away.
And yes. Re MDX. The pilot was never allowed to communicate to the radar operator. I fixed that despite resistance by the typical dopes. Some are so stupid they want to go back to pre AMATs where pilots OCTA in good radar coverage can only communicate to a 1930s type radio operator. Crazy.
I dare you to comment on why Ex RAAF Mr Skidmore has not addressed even one of my 20 cost saving points.
And what is fanatical about attempting to reduce 20 minutes of holding at Willy when other leading aviation countries can operate a system that has far more efficient procedures.
Yes. I am glad I am undermining the credibility of the Iron Colonels- I bet that's what you dont like. You have got away with your destruction of our industry for a long time and many of us are on to you!
Last edited by Dick Smith; 24th May 2016 at 22:45.
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Not even game to stand by your own names. No one would take you seriously. I am making sure all of this is on record.
I'm afraid from what I have seen of Canberra that Dick is right.
1. Canberra and its public service minions think of themselves as 'rulers" of Australia, they are totally unresponsive to the requests of ordinary citizens. We are an annoyance if we protest.
2. the senior public servants I saw in a variety of Departments view their "Customer" as the Minister, not the general public. We are relegated to "consumers". Hence their is no hope in hell of any customer focused initiative succeeding in our terms.
3. The RAAF, with one or two notable exceptions has an unfortunate capability of breeding unresponsive, egocentric, rigid thinkers with an enormous sense of self importance who find it difficult to cope with decision making in a commercial free market environment where information flow is less than perfect and decisions need to be made under uncertainty. Their usual response is to try to turn the organization they inhabit into a carbon copy of the Air Force, complete with hierarchy. They are incapable of independent thinking, let alone change or reform.
4. RAAF Officers seem to believe they are in some type of private club. Hence in institutions they form their own clique and work together as a. team to. achieve their own group objectives at the expense of and in defiance of, the goals. of the institution.
5. Traits (1) and (2) amplify the behaviors of (3). and (4) Canberra is a very small hot house that brings out the worst. The grey sponge incubates these creatures.
6. The freedom of movement of citizens via GA and recreational flying is as a direct threat to the rule of Canberra and is also anathema to the RAAF. That is why. ADS-B is so attractive - total information awareness to make control easier to achieve. ASICS, etc. and restrictive regulations are a step in this direction. Make no mistake, Canberra wants MORE regulation, ideally you shut GA and recreational aviation down as soon as possible. the Freudian slip about pilots being uncaught criminals is a reflection of this attitude.
To put that another way don't listen to what CASA says, watch what they do.
But wait, there is more.....ADFA is. a disaster according to a couple of people I know who have experienced it, and it's going to make matters much worse in future. ADFA now suffers from rampant political correctness and favoritism - did you know for example, that there are now 'military families' in Australia? junior goes to ADFA and gets special treatment because Daddy is an Admiral/General/AVM? sad but true. just wait till these perfumed princes and princesses join the ranks of our 'leaders".
unfortunately I believe I was correct when the good AVM was appointed, not a hope in hell of real reform despite his best intentions.
oh, and an integrated ATC system that is affordable and capable? not a hope in hell.
1. Canberra and its public service minions think of themselves as 'rulers" of Australia, they are totally unresponsive to the requests of ordinary citizens. We are an annoyance if we protest.
2. the senior public servants I saw in a variety of Departments view their "Customer" as the Minister, not the general public. We are relegated to "consumers". Hence their is no hope in hell of any customer focused initiative succeeding in our terms.
3. The RAAF, with one or two notable exceptions has an unfortunate capability of breeding unresponsive, egocentric, rigid thinkers with an enormous sense of self importance who find it difficult to cope with decision making in a commercial free market environment where information flow is less than perfect and decisions need to be made under uncertainty. Their usual response is to try to turn the organization they inhabit into a carbon copy of the Air Force, complete with hierarchy. They are incapable of independent thinking, let alone change or reform.
4. RAAF Officers seem to believe they are in some type of private club. Hence in institutions they form their own clique and work together as a. team to. achieve their own group objectives at the expense of and in defiance of, the goals. of the institution.
5. Traits (1) and (2) amplify the behaviors of (3). and (4) Canberra is a very small hot house that brings out the worst. The grey sponge incubates these creatures.
6. The freedom of movement of citizens via GA and recreational flying is as a direct threat to the rule of Canberra and is also anathema to the RAAF. That is why. ADS-B is so attractive - total information awareness to make control easier to achieve. ASICS, etc. and restrictive regulations are a step in this direction. Make no mistake, Canberra wants MORE regulation, ideally you shut GA and recreational aviation down as soon as possible. the Freudian slip about pilots being uncaught criminals is a reflection of this attitude.
To put that another way don't listen to what CASA says, watch what they do.
But wait, there is more.....ADFA is. a disaster according to a couple of people I know who have experienced it, and it's going to make matters much worse in future. ADFA now suffers from rampant political correctness and favoritism - did you know for example, that there are now 'military families' in Australia? junior goes to ADFA and gets special treatment because Daddy is an Admiral/General/AVM? sad but true. just wait till these perfumed princes and princesses join the ranks of our 'leaders".
unfortunately I believe I was correct when the good AVM was appointed, not a hope in hell of real reform despite his best intentions.
oh, and an integrated ATC system that is affordable and capable? not a hope in hell.
Last edited by Sunfish; 24th May 2016 at 23:07.
I am making sure all of this is on record.
I don't doubt your good intentions, and if you can genuinely make things better or simpler for aviation, then more power to you. Repeatedly spouting untruths and nonsense just doesn't seem like a good way to achieve it.
I think my motto will now be: "I am become death, destroyer of GA". If I'm being accused I might as well enjoy it. Now I just have to find a few spare arms to wave about so I can take my proper form.......
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Sunfish
Nice Great War characature. You really believe that war fighters operate in an 'environment of perfect information flow and certainty' don't you. Or you wouldn't have written that. 
3. The RAAF, with one or two notable exceptions has an unfortunate capability of breeding unresponsive, egocentric, rigid thinkers with an enormous sense of self importance who find it difficult to cope with decision making in a commercial free market environment where information flow is less than perfect and decisions need to be made under uncertainty.
To be fair, I don't mind rigid thinkers maintaining my aircraft (an Ansett engineer developed a persecution complex - the company made him chief inspector - exquisite promotion!).
However such folk, while they have their uses, have no business running civilian institutions staffed by ordinary humans.
Many of these comments are extremely insulting to the people in the RAAF and other armed services who work very hard and can be called upon to put their lives at risk to protect YOUR freedoms. Have you ever considered that problems such as 'rigid thinking' are a feature of the system rather than the individuals that work within that system? It's about time some people woke up to the fact that the Public Service is a bureaucracy, with all the disadvantages that type of system entails. It is not a commercial enterprise. You won't get anywhere by attacking a few individuals who have little or no chance of changing the way the system works.
The suggestion that RAAF officers can't cope with decision making in an environment where "information flow is less than perfect and decisions need to be made under uncertainty" is, quite frankly, laughable, as are some of the other derogatory comments above.
The suggestion that RAAF officers can't cope with decision making in an environment where "information flow is less than perfect and decisions need to be made under uncertainty" is, quite frankly, laughable, as are some of the other derogatory comments above.
Thread Starter
I say for the third time. It was ex RAAF Ron Cooper who introduced the first major cost reductions at CAA.
In more recent times it appears that those in the military who resist change and copying the success of others have more influence.
They are quite un -intentionally destroying the GA industry in this country.
In more recent times it appears that those in the military who resist change and copying the success of others have more influence.
They are quite un -intentionally destroying the GA industry in this country.
Post #44
Post #59
So is there a plan or not?
The last three CASA Chiefs have been military trained. Look at what has happened to our industry and the regulatory reform programme .........
I believe there is a plan in the Canberra bureaucracy to destroy the Non Airline aviation industry in Australia.
I believe there is a plan in the Canberra bureaucracy to destroy the Non Airline aviation industry in Australia.
...those in the military who resist change and copying the success of others.......are quite un -intentionally destroying the GA industry in this country.
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The suggestion that RAAF officers can't cope with decision making in an environment where "information flow is less than perfect and decisions need to be made under uncertainty" is, quite frankly, laughable, as are some of the other derogatory comments above.