Commercial Pilots who don't know about piston engines
That's a good point, Eddie. Engines and the laws of physics know when an aircraft is engaged in private operations versus commercial operations, and change accordingly.
Captjns: Most of those great manuals 'allow', and some and even 'recommend', setting EGT to 50 degrees F on the rich side of peak in the cruise. Aside from the fact that a single point EGT gauge leaves you blissfully ignorant of where on the lean curve each cylinder happens to be, 50 degrees F on the rich side of peak is just about the worst place to set mixture if you want to avoid exposing the cylinders to unnecessarily high pressures and temperatures. The laws of physics and chemistry, backed by data from millions of hours of operation, prove it. As I said earlier and now for the last time in this thread:
Captjns: Most of those great manuals 'allow', and some and even 'recommend', setting EGT to 50 degrees F on the rich side of peak in the cruise. Aside from the fact that a single point EGT gauge leaves you blissfully ignorant of where on the lean curve each cylinder happens to be, 50 degrees F on the rich side of peak is just about the worst place to set mixture if you want to avoid exposing the cylinders to unnecessarily high pressures and temperatures. The laws of physics and chemistry, backed by data from millions of hours of operation, prove it. As I said earlier and now for the last time in this thread:
The fact that the engine might survive the abuse or inefficient operation proves nothing, other than that many engines are manufactured with wide tolerances for abuse and inefficient operation.
A comparison between the condition and costs of running engines the blissful ignorance way, on the one hand, and the condition and costs of running engines on the basis of the science and data used by APS, on the other, is quite instructive. But only for those who are willing and able to learn.
A comparison between the condition and costs of running engines the blissful ignorance way, on the one hand, and the condition and costs of running engines on the basis of the science and data used by APS, on the other, is quite instructive. But only for those who are willing and able to learn.
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 30th Jan 2016 at 19:42.
Leadie, I'm not spending my money and time to go on an APS course. I'll get zero benefit other than be able to possibly argue their point of view to all and sundry. I did read those pelican things years ago though. If anything I found them thought provoking rather than gospel. There's lots of information out on the web and published books about other aircraft and engines, also written by very experienced and technical people (development test crew), thought provoking too but still not gospel.
If however, I operate pistons again then maybe I'll look to build on what I learnt about piston engines all those years ago. But until then, zero benefit from an APS course.
Yes I was told things like "don't run over square" but I did it anyway. Why? Because that power setting is in the aircraft power chart! My engines have made TBO (and beyond) without the fancy equipment, so operating as per the AFM seems to be good enough!
There does also seem to be a bit of a demarcation between the private and the commercial operators here. Private owners don't exactly have to worry about fronting court for someone else operating outside of the approved procedures and crashing a plane/killing people!
If however, I operate pistons again then maybe I'll look to build on what I learnt about piston engines all those years ago. But until then, zero benefit from an APS course.
Yes I was told things like "don't run over square" but I did it anyway. Why? Because that power setting is in the aircraft power chart! My engines have made TBO (and beyond) without the fancy equipment, so operating as per the AFM seems to be good enough!
There does also seem to be a bit of a demarcation between the private and the commercial operators here. Private owners don't exactly have to worry about fronting court for someone else operating outside of the approved procedures and crashing a plane/killing people!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If however, I operate pistons again then maybe I'll look to build on what I learnt about piston engines all those years ago. But until then, zero benefit from an APS course.
and since when has any education been of no benefit? i am willing to bet i could tell you more about your engine by doing a mag check at cruise power at TOD than you could ever gain by doing the same at runup.
i have done the course, and fly behind non mixture equipped aircraft 90% of the time, and when i am flying anything Lycombing or Continental powered, its only fitted with a single EGT probe, and the lessons learnt at the course help me understand whats going on with those aircraft as well.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Age: 37
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are, or at least were major commercial operators in New Zealand who operated LOP. I don't know if they still are but when I talked to a former senior pilot he was pretty proud they did.
The argument to the POH argument is that it just says "recommended" best economy and best power. It doesn't say you can only operate at "best economy" or "best power", because often you can't, takeoff for example. So if you can operate richer than those, why not leaner?
I know that some POHs have said said no LOP (or was it separate Lycoming advice?) Anyway, the funny thing is, as I said before if I used the "lean till rough then enrich till smooth" i'm running at least some of the cylinders LOP. Am I operating illegally?
I bet if I offered most of you a homeopathic remedy you'd point out that the data doesn't support its effectiveness. Well, likewise the operation of an engine at 50 degrees ROP. The data shows it is the worst position. Simple. Manufacturers are like regulators and move at the speed of roading tar, so the pressure from people who have gathered real hard data are in my mind of a similar value to those who pressure for regulatory reform.
The argument to the POH argument is that it just says "recommended" best economy and best power. It doesn't say you can only operate at "best economy" or "best power", because often you can't, takeoff for example. So if you can operate richer than those, why not leaner?
I know that some POHs have said said no LOP (or was it separate Lycoming advice?) Anyway, the funny thing is, as I said before if I used the "lean till rough then enrich till smooth" i'm running at least some of the cylinders LOP. Am I operating illegally?
I bet if I offered most of you a homeopathic remedy you'd point out that the data doesn't support its effectiveness. Well, likewise the operation of an engine at 50 degrees ROP. The data shows it is the worst position. Simple. Manufacturers are like regulators and move at the speed of roading tar, so the pressure from people who have gathered real hard data are in my mind of a similar value to those who pressure for regulatory reform.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From Jabawocky in an earlier post:
To shut the naysayers up, could we get the explanation of how to fly LOP without instrumentation and with eyes shut?
From the same post:
A bit of education here on how to fly LOP without instrumentation and with eyes shut may go along way to preventing these stupid threads that pop up, funnily enough when there's a course on soon with a few spots left...
I can teach anyone to fly safely LOP in under 5 minutes, more like 2-3 minutes including a briefing and demonstration. Mid 2013 during the Aust Womens Pilots conference in Hervey Bay, I took Kreisha Ballantyne, the editor from Australian Pilot flying over Fraser Island. I asked her to fly, and we departed YHBA climbed to 1500' and head rougly towards Lake Mackenzie. Once at 1500 and already over water, I gave a briefing on how to do it, with her eyes closed (1-2 seconds) she did it. This was all done and dusted before we reached the Island shores. She nailed it first go. Simple as that, even a girl can do it we joked! We did not need or use anything of the EMS, no lean find functions, nothing more than the human sensor pack and a 1-2 minute briefing.
From the same post:
One thing I and Mr Atkinson, Braly, Deakin and Denyer promise is that if someone is actually willing to learn and shows signs of being determined to learn, despite the strongly held beliefs we were all once taught, we will do our best to share the education. This is not at all about being in pi##ing contests.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You won't get it Scavenger. The snake oil salesman want you to pay up to get in on their good oil.
I'm not really sure what the mods are thinking when the OzRunways/Avplan guys who post on PPRUNE get shut down at any hint of advertising, yet with clockwork regularity these guys pop up to spruik their wears under the guise of 'trying to spread the good word' and get away with a bit of free advertising at the same time.
I'm not really sure what the mods are thinking when the OzRunways/Avplan guys who post on PPRUNE get shut down at any hint of advertising, yet with clockwork regularity these guys pop up to spruik their wears under the guise of 'trying to spread the good word' and get away with a bit of free advertising at the same time.
Last edited by wishiwasupthere; 31st Jan 2016 at 03:48.
That's right, those APS guys are making a profit out of the courses. It's no wonder they sprulk (sorry ... spruce) them. The presenters had hoped to get real jobs and amass some real wealth, but failed at that and now need to rip off course attendees.
LOP with your eyes closed and without instrumentation?
A lot of those fantastic manuals for simple piston aircraft say the leaning procedure is to lean until the engine 'runs rough' and enrich to remove the roughness.
After complying with this procedure in the manual - to stay legal and safe of course - where on the lean curve is each of the cylinders?
When you use the same procedure 'cause it's in the manual for a different aircraft with a different engine to stay legal and safe of course - where on the lean on the lean curve is each of the cylinders?
Do you need your eyes open to feel roughness?
It's all part of the joke that just keeps on giving.
LOP with your eyes closed and without instrumentation?
A lot of those fantastic manuals for simple piston aircraft say the leaning procedure is to lean until the engine 'runs rough' and enrich to remove the roughness.
After complying with this procedure in the manual - to stay legal and safe of course - where on the lean curve is each of the cylinders?
When you use the same procedure 'cause it's in the manual for a different aircraft with a different engine to stay legal and safe of course - where on the lean on the lean curve is each of the cylinders?
Do you need your eyes open to feel roughness?
It's all part of the joke that just keeps on giving.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A little defensive there, lead balloon. It was a simple question I asked (without mentioning manuals, staying safe and legal or whatever) but I'm not sure from your post whether the answer to my question is:
or something else. Is this what is taught at the course or not? Could you elaborate please?
Actually don't bother, Jabawocky seems to be straight up so I'll wait for him. This isn't the first time supporters of the APS course have, in their hubris, made the course look less attractive to the disinterested observer.
A lot of those fantastic manuals for simple piston aircraft say the leaning procedure is to lean until the engine 'runs rough' and enrich to remove the roughness.
Actually don't bother, Jabawocky seems to be straight up so I'll wait for him. This isn't the first time supporters of the APS course have, in their hubris, made the course look less attractive to the disinterested observer.
You're not a disinterested observer at all, scavenger. Your posts reveal that you're critical of what you perceive to be a marketing trick.
The value of the course is affected by the hubris of some previous attendees?
The joke just keeps on giving!
[T]hese stupid threads pop up, funnily enough when there's a course coming up with a few spots left...
The value of the course is affected by the hubris of some previous attendees?
The joke just keeps on giving!
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: G2 17R
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys realize that after they pay for the venue, catering, & logistics etc, the presenters make no money out of it.
It's ok guys, I'd also be pretty peeved off if I went through a whole career believing and propagating old wives tales about engine management only to be told it was all a lie. Peeved off, but I wouldn't be in denial. I also sure as hell wouldn't be accusing the ones sharing their unbiased data with me as trying to profiteer.
It's ok guys, I'd also be pretty peeved off if I went through a whole career believing and propagating old wives tales about engine management only to be told it was all a lie. Peeved off, but I wouldn't be in denial. I also sure as hell wouldn't be accusing the ones sharing their unbiased data with me as trying to profiteer.
Umm, I fail to see (pun intended), how leaning with your eyes closed and not watching (therefore effectively not having) the engine monitoring gear gets you the correct lean settings. To me that sounds like just as much guesswork as lean till rough then enrich a bit.
Maybe jabba was watching the gauges and told the lady with her eyes closed "that's correct stop there". Learn to do it in 2 seconds, doesn't sound like it's all that difficult compared to these monkey brain turbines
Ultralights, I very much agree that going to courses, diving into extra material, publications etc for developing ones knowledge is paramount. I've just stated that for me, courses on things that I don't operate now nor intend to operate anytime soon are pretty much pointless. It's like you going to a course on Airbus or Boeing systems if you don't fly it nor intend to fly it!
By the way, it isn't possible to mag check my engine
Maybe jabba was watching the gauges and told the lady with her eyes closed "that's correct stop there". Learn to do it in 2 seconds, doesn't sound like it's all that difficult compared to these monkey brain turbines
Ultralights, I very much agree that going to courses, diving into extra material, publications etc for developing ones knowledge is paramount. I've just stated that for me, courses on things that I don't operate now nor intend to operate anytime soon are pretty much pointless. It's like you going to a course on Airbus or Boeing systems if you don't fly it nor intend to fly it!
By the way, it isn't possible to mag check my engine
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lead Balloon, since you are quick to point out someone else's incorrect use of language, allow me to suggest you learn the meaning of the word disinterested. Just because I may be critical of something does not mean I have a personal stake. In fact, isn't one of the arguments used on here that critical thinking is what's lacking in the naysayers.
Just complete the sentence if you can:
The best way to lean the mixture, with eyes closed as Jabawocky claims is easy to teach, is to ________________.
Just complete the sentence if you can:
The best way to lean the mixture, with eyes closed as Jabawocky claims is easy to teach, is to ________________.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please enlighten me (as a member of the uneducated masses) on the correct leaning technique to achieve your precise lop figure flying a basic a/c like a warrior or even a C152, without any fancy gadgets & gauges to assist you. This is a genuine question - I'm interested to know. If doing it with your eyes closed is the way to go, then you must be doing it by sound. As Ramrod said, the only way that would work is leaning it until it starts running rough and then richen it until it smooths out.
The APS course sounds like a good idea if you are flying a more advanced a/c but I can't see how it could help your average ppl chugging around in his old warrior or C172 with a throttle, a mixture control, a tacho and basic oil pressure & temp gauges, not even an egt gauge let alone probes on every cylinder!
Sorry scavenger, trod on your toes a bit with that post, but looks like we're after the same info!
The APS course sounds like a good idea if you are flying a more advanced a/c but I can't see how it could help your average ppl chugging around in his old warrior or C172 with a throttle, a mixture control, a tacho and basic oil pressure & temp gauges, not even an egt gauge let alone probes on every cylinder!
Sorry scavenger, trod on your toes a bit with that post, but looks like we're after the same info!
Last edited by IFEZ; 31st Jan 2016 at 05:11. Reason: Update
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No worries IFEZ, you cut to the heart of the matter. Wait for Jabawocky, his answer will be most illuminating I'm sure. A pity some of his humility did not wear off on some of the attendees.
[A]llow me to suggest you learn the meaning of the word disinterested.
The best way to lean the mixture, with eyes closed as Jabawocky claims is easy to teach, is to:
- in the case of an engine fitted with a CSU, lean until you feel the aircraft decelerate through the seat of your pants [I do this every flight], and
- in the case of an engine fitted with a fixed pitch prop, until the engine 'runs rough' or ceases producing power, and then enrich to remove the roughness or restore power.
The success of these techniques, and where each cylinder ends up on its lean curve, depends on the engine either having left the factory and being fitted in a way that the proper F/A mixture is delivered to each cylinder (a lottery, given the poor quality control of the manufacture of the components that determine these outcomes) or the engine having been set up that way, post-manufacture and fitment (an outcome that I would have thought would be desirable, instead of runnning the engine inefficiently or abusively to cover up the consequences of poor manufacture).
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They'll teach you how to fly ROP if you want. Thing is they'll teach you how to do that at temperatures & pressures that are better for your engine 
I reckon Jaba makes a loss on the course, loves a chat does Jaba, reckon he does it so he can have a good chinwag with likeminded people. So if your mind is closed simple, don't go
I reckon Jaba makes a loss on the course, loves a chat does Jaba, reckon he does it so he can have a good chinwag with likeminded people. So if your mind is closed simple, don't go