"Left" or "Leaving"...What should I say?
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Only in Australia would you have have a thread on a subject like this and it runs for 3 pages what's more.
I found this to be rather unusual but then again I had to remind myself we are talking about Australia, where they often do it "better" than the rest of the world.
I found this to be rather unusual but then again I had to remind myself we are talking about Australia, where they often do it "better" than the rest of the world.
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Don't cha just love them? You should try having a training department full of them, many of whom (not who) will argue for 6 beers and 3 hours over the words "should" or "shall"
Shall is a mandatory, Should is an advisory or recommendation. Part of my role is delivering training on a specific subject-those who have trouble with the difference have it expressed as "you *effin will or I or someone above me will have your 4rs* or "it would be a good idea to"
Lido-General part - COM page Section 90
LEVEL CHANGE- PILOT- When in radar contact and changing altitude, the report LEAVING is compulsory. Report REACHING only on request of ATC
For info LIDO is the Lufthansa Systems (Jep equivalent).
"The General part contains a brief summary of standards and recommended practices based on ICAO,FAA EASA/JAA guidelines as well as operational standards and guidelines based on EU/EASA-OPS and FARs. This ensures that all applicable world-wide standards are covered in the RM."
(Emirates uses LIDO)
LEVEL CHANGE- PILOT- When in radar contact and changing altitude, the report LEAVING is compulsory. Report REACHING only on request of ATC
For info LIDO is the Lufthansa Systems (Jep equivalent).
"The General part contains a brief summary of standards and recommended practices based on ICAO,FAA EASA/JAA guidelines as well as operational standards and guidelines based on EU/EASA-OPS and FARs. This ensures that all applicable world-wide standards are covered in the RM."
(Emirates uses LIDO)
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Nope, yers all wrong. All about consistency.
It's "leaves" to be consistent with "ABC turns base ...", etc
It's "leaves" to be consistent with "ABC turns base ...", etc
In all seriousness, how hard is it?
ENR 1.7-8 "Change of Levels"
ATC approval required:
"The PIC of an aircraft, receiving an instruction from ATC to change level, must report:
a. when the aircraft has left a level at which level flight has been conducted in the course of climb, cruise or descent; and
b. when the aircraft leaves a level for which ATC has requested a report"
My bolding. So, you've had level flight. Your cleared to change to a different level. Based on the written word above the report would be "Left (alt/FL such and such)"
If you have been requested to report as per b, it would be "Leaving (alt/FL such and such".
Now, when ATC Approval Not Required:
4.2.1 "In airspace where ATC approval is not required to change level, the pilot of an IFR flight must report present position and intention to ATC approximately 1 minute prior to making any change"
This one is a little harder, they don't differentiate. Just say something that everyone can understand!
As for the "Left 200" confusion thinking they are turning left to 200 degrees because they didn't say Flight Level, pfft. They are in the wrong and they should be corrected to say "Left FL(figure)".
Gen 3.4-13 4.4.3, Radiotelephony procedures - "Reported level figures of an aircraft must be preceded by the words "FLIGHT LEVEL" when related to standard pressure and may be followed by the word "FEET" when related to QNH".
So my pigeons, I feel like throwing you another cat. Is it PASSING or THROUGH??
'myname'.............."out of" covers all contingencies Meow
Said it all day just yesterday, seems ATC got the idea without a hitch!
Wmk2
MeowSaid it all day just yesterday, seems ATC got the idea without a hitch!
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 11th Jun 2014 at 06:42.
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Well, some controllers do make another whole extra radio call just to tell you not to enter controlled airspace without a clearance, and the 'pending' is an attempt to let them know that, yes, I am aware FL2xx is in controlled airspace and I'll level off at FL180 if you haven't given me a clearance by then, so don't make that unnecessary radio call. To be honest I haven't actually said 'pending clearance' for years, mostly because controllers in the sectors I've been flying haven't been doing the above.
With regard to left/leaving, I probably hear it hundreds of times a shift, and honestly can't remember which one has been used.
Just to stir things along an bit, how many crews know the difference between "left of track" and "left of route"?
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Some controllers HAVE HAD to say remain OCTA after having Kingairs climb into controlled airspace without a clearance. Guess who gets their arse kicked if this happens? Some controllers have had this happen several times (
). Some controllers assume that a professional pilot WITHOUT an airways clearance would level out at the base of controlled airspace
). Some controllers assume that a professional pilot WITHOUT an airways clearance would level out at the base of controlled airspace
b. when the aircraft leaves a level for which ATC has requested a report"
Guess who gets their arse kicked if this happens? Some controllers have had this happen several times
how many crews know the difference between "left of track" and "left of route"?
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AIP Example "LEAVING"
AIP ENR 1.1 Section 12.1.4:
After any frequency change, pilots must advise the last assigned level and, if not maintaining the assigned level, the level maintaining or last vacated level; eg, "MELBOURNE CENTRE (CALLSIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO".
*Don't forget the note guys!!
Note: The "last vacated level" may be omitted by identified aircraft squawking pressure altitude derived level information.
^^^
That's pretty clear to me that if it's present tense use the word "LEAVING". If it's past tense (maybe 10 - 15 seconds ago) I'd use "LEFT".
Notice guys that the AIP reference doesn't use the word "LEFT"...?
It's ironic this thread popped up when it did, I've been flying around CTA for about 10 years and have never given this topic a moment of thought, until about 2 weeks ago, I said the "LEAVING ___" as at that exact point in time we commenced our descent. I was then corrected by another crew member that I should use the word "LEFT" because it isn't as confusing as "LEAVING" ......wtf!? I just smiled and nodded to keep the peace but I don't understand how it's confusing.
Also if you think about the way SSR works and what ATC see, I tend to say "LEAVING ____" (if it's present tense of course) because I understand that there may be a few second delay on their screen. Otherwise if I were to say "LEFT____", ATC may look up at their screen and think.."no they haven't", wait and stare for those few seconds at the screen to make sure the pilot is behaving himself - which could distract them from another task. Maybe that is drawing quite a long bow though....
I'd be interested to hear if anybody can tell me why using the word "LEAVING" is confusing (especially because there is a clear example in the AIP!!)
After any frequency change, pilots must advise the last assigned level and, if not maintaining the assigned level, the level maintaining or last vacated level; eg, "MELBOURNE CENTRE (CALLSIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO".
*Don't forget the note guys!!
Note: The "last vacated level" may be omitted by identified aircraft squawking pressure altitude derived level information.
^^^
That's pretty clear to me that if it's present tense use the word "LEAVING". If it's past tense (maybe 10 - 15 seconds ago) I'd use "LEFT".
Notice guys that the AIP reference doesn't use the word "LEFT"...?
It's ironic this thread popped up when it did, I've been flying around CTA for about 10 years and have never given this topic a moment of thought, until about 2 weeks ago, I said the "LEAVING ___" as at that exact point in time we commenced our descent. I was then corrected by another crew member that I should use the word "LEFT" because it isn't as confusing as "LEAVING" ......wtf!? I just smiled and nodded to keep the peace but I don't understand how it's confusing.
Also if you think about the way SSR works and what ATC see, I tend to say "LEAVING ____" (if it's present tense of course) because I understand that there may be a few second delay on their screen. Otherwise if I were to say "LEFT____", ATC may look up at their screen and think.."no they haven't", wait and stare for those few seconds at the screen to make sure the pilot is behaving himself - which could distract them from another task. Maybe that is drawing quite a long bow though....
I'd be interested to hear if anybody can tell me why using the word "LEAVING" is confusing (especially because there is a clear example in the AIP!!)
'InsaneO' "leaving" isn't confusing at all, that's the craziest thing about this thread 
"Leaving" "Left" "out of" FL390, they all describe the same event & they are all used at one time or another & you know what? Planes continue to fly, oh the horror of it all
Wmk2
"Leaving" "Left" "out of" FL390, they all describe the same event & they are all used at one time or another & you know what? Planes continue to fly, oh the horror of it all
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 11th Jun 2014 at 11:21.
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Some controllers HAVE HAD to say remain OCTA ...... And they'd be wrong.
It's "REMAIN OUTSIDE CLASS (Insert class) AIRSPACE."
It's "REMAIN OUTSIDE CLASS (Insert class) AIRSPACE."
And this is an example of the worlds second best controller
Pilots of Australia, this is what you're dealing with from 'your' ATC
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Nautilus Blue
Does any other country in the world bother with such a difference? When I read that one in the AIP it just confirmed what I've said on a previous thread:
The rest of the world communicates; in Australia we have procedures.
Seriously, I'm flying from point A to point B and require to go Left or Right to aviod something. Does it really matter if point A was a waypoint or not?
IME pilots rarely get it right. Sometimes some ATC get it wrong. However, 100% of the requests are granted if there is no conflicting traffic regardless if the pilot/ATC say "route" instead of "track".
DIVOSH!
Just to stir things along an bit, how many crews know the difference between "left of track" and "left of route"?
The rest of the world communicates; in Australia we have procedures.
Seriously, I'm flying from point A to point B and require to go Left or Right to aviod something. Does it really matter if point A was a waypoint or not?
IME pilots rarely get it right. Sometimes some ATC get it wrong. However, 100% of the requests are granted if there is no conflicting traffic regardless if the pilot/ATC say "route" instead of "track".
DIVOSH!
'Di_V' I agree there we tend to over complicate things here. One often hears the 'trk/route' thingy, tech there is a diff as we all know but sheeez I wanna go left/right,can I? How hard is that!!
Wmk2
Wmk2
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Seriously, I'm flying from point A to point B and require to go Left or Right to aviod something. Does it really matter if point A was a waypoint or not?
It has resulted in a loss of separation, hence the AIC and directive for us.
I'm not sue but I suspect left/right of route is ICAO, and we are coming into line.
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"Leaving" is present tense. "Left" is past tense.
If you have left your level several minutes ago, but have been unable to report that (due frequency congestion, say), then to say "leaving" is wrong - and would certainly feel wrong.
Nothing in the AIP gives us licence to cease using proper english!
This may be what it says in AIP, but this is wrong. Sometimes there are typos and misprints in the AIP. This is one of those times.
If you were passing FL245 at the time of the call, then you should have said "DESCENDING TO FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEFT FLIGHT LEVEL TWO FIVE ZERO"
Diversions around weather? Why do Qantas pilots insist on saying things like "require 20 miles left of track to avoid weather", when they don't really require that?
Sure, they may require a diversion, but the amount is really just a request. If they really want to use the word "require", then they should say "require diversion due weather, request 20 miles left of track".
To say "require 20 miles left of track" is to say that 19 miles left will not suffice, nor will 21, 30, 40 or 50 - it must be 20!
If you have left your level several minutes ago, but have been unable to report that (due frequency congestion, say), then to say "leaving" is wrong - and would certainly feel wrong.
Nothing in the AIP gives us licence to cease using proper english!
"MELBOURNE CENTRE (CALLSIGN) CLEARED FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO".
If you were passing FL245 at the time of the call, then you should have said "DESCENDING TO FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEFT FLIGHT LEVEL TWO FIVE ZERO"
Diversions around weather? Why do Qantas pilots insist on saying things like "require 20 miles left of track to avoid weather", when they don't really require that?
Sure, they may require a diversion, but the amount is really just a request. If they really want to use the word "require", then they should say "require diversion due weather, request 20 miles left of track".
To say "require 20 miles left of track" is to say that 19 miles left will not suffice, nor will 21, 30, 40 or 50 - it must be 20!
That AIP call really is a doozy as it is totally farked and non-sensical.
Actually, the call would be "Descending to FL 210, Left FL 250" being the last vacated level, not your original cruising level.
"up to, up to 20 I asked for!".
Originally Posted by FDG
If you were passing FL245 at the time of the call, then you should have said "DESCENDING TO FLIGHT LEVEL TWO ONE ZERO, LEFT FLIGHT LEVEL TWO FIVE ZERO"
"up to, up to 20 I asked for!".