"Left" or "Leaving"...What should I say?
It was always "Left Flight Level 250" until the ICAO masochists came along, then that (and other clear, concise calls) were removed.
In my view, "Left" is best and most commonsense. You are either at a level or you are not.
There are only two real examples in AIP (CPDLC notwithstanding):
- GEN 3.4 Page 31, which is an ATC call so not definitively a pilot call and
- ENR 1.1 12.1.4, which is such a non-sensical example that it has no credibility (in CTA, there is absolutely no need to say "Left" [or "Leaving"] and then saying "cleared to" in the same breath).
As for confusion between Heading Left and Level Left, ATC will never say "Leaving" in the context of a heading command so there would be no of confusion there. And all levels should have "Flight Level" at the start!
Of course not. That is probably why it was always "Left". But let's not allow practicality to get in the way of the MIGHTY ICAO! 
Got a reference for that? 
When in Ozzie do as Aussies do: ENR 1.7 4.1.6. 
Be interesting to know what MATS says. Jack knows but isn't saying!
In my view, "Left" is best and most commonsense. You are either at a level or you are not.
There are only two real examples in AIP (CPDLC notwithstanding):
- GEN 3.4 Page 31, which is an ATC call so not definitively a pilot call and
- ENR 1.1 12.1.4, which is such a non-sensical example that it has no credibility (in CTA, there is absolutely no need to say "Left" [or "Leaving"] and then saying "cleared to" in the same breath).
As for confusion between Heading Left and Level Left, ATC will never say "Leaving" in the context of a heading command so there would be no of confusion there. And all levels should have "Flight Level" at the start!
Originally Posted by FPVDude
So I'm at 390, cleared to leave, start descent, and due to radio fluff, can't get in for a few thousand feet.. Am i still "leaving FL390"..?
Originally Posted by Make it Happen Capn
ps. "Leaving" is the correct phrase for a level change when not radar identified.
Originally Posted by Picker
The call is not required when under Radar Control.
Be interesting to know what MATS says. Jack knows but isn't saying!
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G'day Wal parole is almost as bad as banned
Cap'n, I cannot get involved in these discussions anymore as it raises my blood pressure
there's a reason for standard phraseology. I think most Australian ATC's (second best in the world ) plan for 'non standard' phraseologies
Lead sled (see that? I'm now reformed)
parole is almost as bad as banned Cap'n, I cannot get involved in these discussions anymore as it raises my blood pressure
there's a reason for standard phraseology. I think most Australian ATC's (second best in the world ) plan for 'non standard' phraseologies Lead sled
(see that? I'm now reformed)
Jesus "JR" live a little there buddy, don't let tyranny rule it's bad enuf up there in China where the Mods don't live (then again!)!What have those Mods done to you mate?:-)
You can always come back as "JR Mk2", we'll still luvs ya
I can't believe there's so much fracas over this, I mean how the hell did we ever got on b4
I always say "out of xxx", never had an issue am sure ATC get a ruff idea what I am doing:-)
Wmk2
What have those Mods done to you mate?:-)You can always come back as "JR Mk2", we'll still luvs ya
I can't believe there's so much fracas over this, I mean how the hell did we ever got on b4
I always say "out of xxx", never had an issue am sure ATC get a ruff idea what I am doing:-)Wmk2
'blackt' you cannot have 'practical' here in Oz where Aviation is concerned, we also cannot have happiness breaking thru with 'practicable' on the radio either mixed in with it, it's not allowed & neither is it on PPrune, stick with the facts quote the Jepps & we will all live happily ever after!
Wmk2
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 9th Jun 2014 at 12:15. Reason: reducing happiness:-)
When you live....
Nervously stepping into the fray.... I confess I thought there was a use for both in a pilot report? Procedural controlled airspace (does it still exist with ADSB?) with step climbs and step descents. Pilot 'blocking' the following traffic should report 'Left' the level in order to allow the following guy to be cleared to the next level (or even that level?).
I do use both -
- leaving when given a "when ready, descend to xxxx" *
- left when asked to report on descent (doesn't happen often but it has) or being situation-ally aware of someone being on top of me.
Maybe it was a european thing i read doing JAA ATPLs? But leaving was good enough - as you were still there. Left was a required statement as it meant you had vacated and weren't going back?
Anyone who thinks a pilot reporting 'left' instead of 'leaving' is a safety issue needs their head read. At most you'll get a query from ATC if they misunderstand that you're turning when you're climbing/descending - but it's a report, not an instruction.
* Who can think of a more concise way to get around the verbal diarrhea that occurs going into Essendon from the north? "XXX, when ready, descent to niner thousand, QNH 1030, with a requirement to reach niner thousand by two zero Melbourne". Can't it just be an Essendon 1 arrival or something? Drives me nuts - and I only have to read it back once (or twice if recleared ) a flight.
** Heard it given to Qantas yesterday - first time for a ML arrival I've heard?
I do use both -
- leaving when given a "when ready, descend to xxxx" *
- left when asked to report on descent (doesn't happen often but it has) or being situation-ally aware of someone being on top of me.
Maybe it was a european thing i read doing JAA ATPLs? But leaving was good enough - as you were still there. Left was a required statement as it meant you had vacated and weren't going back?
Anyone who thinks a pilot reporting 'left' instead of 'leaving' is a safety issue needs their head read. At most you'll get a query from ATC if they misunderstand that you're turning when you're climbing/descending - but it's a report, not an instruction.
* Who can think of a more concise way to get around the verbal diarrhea that occurs going into Essendon from the north? "XXX, when ready, descent to niner thousand, QNH 1030, with a requirement to reach niner thousand by two zero Melbourne". Can't it just be an Essendon 1 arrival or something? Drives me nuts - and I only have to read it back once (or twice if recleared ) a flight.
** Heard it given to Qantas yesterday - first time for a ML arrival I've heard?
AIP GEN 4.14
Where circumstances warrant, and no phraseology is available, clear and concise plain language should be used to indicate intentions.
Where circumstances warrant, and no phraseology is available, clear and concise plain language should be used to indicate intentions.
When blasting off and letting ATC know you will be climbing to a particular level in controlled airspace but won't enter without a clearance, one might say 'pending clearance', or similar.
or
When having already left a flight level some minutes ago but unable to get on the radio for whatever reason, using 'left FL290', rather than 'leaving FL290'.
etc.
Nothing wrong with clear, concise plain language use in radio calls.
No need to get your knickers in a knot Jack Ranga
Or how's about "now on descent passing FL281..."
I still maintain it's not required under Radar control, it's the way we've done it for years all over the World.....no issues at all.
Typical Australia.
I still maintain it's not required under Radar control, it's the way we've done it for years all over the World.....no issues at all.
Typical Australia.
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Glekichi, no knots here mate previous to my ban (sentence) I was the Wil Anderson of prune i.e. The more you yell & swear the funnier you are
I do like your reference, it's cool & apt. Sometimes I catch myself talking a lot of sh!t on the radio. I think to myself, dood, you could have said that in 5 words of standard rather than 20 words of crap, kinda like requesting traffic & code when the worlds' second best controllers give that to you without thinking about it
previous to my ban (sentence) I was the Wil Anderson of prune i.e. The more you yell & swear the funnier you are I do like your reference, it's cool & apt. Sometimes I catch myself talking a lot of sh!t on the radio. I think to myself, dood, you could have said that in 5 words of standard rather than 20 words of crap, kinda like requesting traffic & code when the worlds' second best controllers give that to you without thinking about it
UTR sadly us procedural tower types still need the report... can't use ADSB/TSAD for separation.
As alluded, it's not too difficult to work out if you say left 4000 that you aren't headed... well who knows. Leaving or left both work for me
PS I am pretty sure there is a reference in AIP that you don't have to advise vacating a level when you are identified. I will look it up tomorrow at work if someone doesn't beat me to it
AIP ENR 1.1-16 8.4.3 Note is the bit about not needing to advise vacated when identified
As alluded, it's not too difficult to work out if you say left 4000 that you aren't headed... well who knows. Leaving or left both work for me
PS I am pretty sure there is a reference in AIP that you don't have to advise vacating a level when you are identified. I will look it up tomorrow at work if someone doesn't beat me to it
AIP ENR 1.1-16 8.4.3 Note is the bit about not needing to advise vacated when identified
Last edited by Awol57; 9th Jun 2014 at 13:43. Reason: Found the reference
Depends on how you interpret it. The original AIP statement was "Left (9000)" indicating you were not at 9000 anymore since you had "left" it behind.
You couldn't get more positive or concise than that.
The along came good old ICAO and said the word to be used by everyone should be "Leaving (9000). That could be interpreted as "I intend to leave 9000 when it suits me" As the song said "I'm leaving on a jet plane" but I haven't actually left yet.
"Leaving" leaves doubt in other pilots minds as to has the bugger left 9000 yet? IMHO of course
You couldn't get more positive or concise than that.
The along came good old ICAO and said the word to be used by everyone should be "Leaving (9000). That could be interpreted as "I intend to leave 9000 when it suits me" As the song said "I'm leaving on a jet plane" but I haven't actually left yet.
"Leaving" leaves doubt in other pilots minds as to has the bugger left 9000 yet? IMHO of course
"Leaving" leaves doubt in other pilots minds as to has the bugger left 9000 yet? IMHO of course
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Onya Bloggs, as usual. Our slavish adherence to ICAO has created more confusion than clarity.
For a controller to assign climb or decent, in an instance where there needs to be certainty, then 'leaving' means stuff all.
'Leaving,' 'leaving' - are you still there?
'Left' is certainty from a controller's perspective. The level has been vacated. No ifs, no buts.
And don't start me on read-backs. Once, we read back the SID, ALT/FL and anything preceded by the word 'amended.' How many prangs were caused by that? But we had to be ICAO compliant and now read-backs just take up airtime for no reason other than being 'compliant.'
For a controller to assign climb or decent, in an instance where there needs to be certainty, then 'leaving' means stuff all.
'Leaving,' 'leaving' - are you still there?
'Left' is certainty from a controller's perspective. The level has been vacated. No ifs, no buts.
And don't start me on read-backs. Once, we read back the SID, ALT/FL and anything preceded by the word 'amended.' How many prangs were caused by that? But we had to be ICAO compliant and now read-backs just take up airtime for no reason other than being 'compliant.'
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It is comforting to know that some have the big issues in aviation so perfect & error free, that they have all the time in the world to argue about this nit-picking, inconsequential, crap! 
Everyone has an opinion, they are all different & everyone thinks their opinion is the correct one. You have to ask yourself - "In the overall scheme of things, is it really that important?" Perhaps it is time to step back & take a look at the forest.
Everyone has an opinion, they are all different & everyone thinks their opinion is the correct one. You have to ask yourself - "In the overall scheme of things, is it really that important?" Perhaps it is time to step back & take a look at the forest.