"Left" or "Leaving"...What should I say?
Originally Posted by Awol57
PS I am pretty sure there is a reference in AIP that you don't have to advise vacating a level when you are identified. I will look it up tomorrow at work if someone doesn't beat me to it
AIP ENR 1.1-16 8.4.3 Note is the bit about not needing to advise vacated when identified
AIP ENR 1.1-16 8.4.3 Note is the bit about not needing to advise vacated when identified
Hey "JR" if we didn't have this sort of thing on PPrune just think how boring it would be in here buddy...yawn!
NO ONE is word perfect even ATC (sorry 'JR'), we are all meant to be professional pilots/controllers (well most of you guys are anyway)so we adapt where necessary to the situation like pilots have being doing since the 'Wrong Bro's left the ground:-)
We drivers could write volumes about nothing, this thread is volume 1
Wmk2
NO ONE is word perfect even ATC (sorry 'JR'), we are all meant to be professional pilots/controllers (well most of you guys are anyway
)so we adapt where necessary to the situation like pilots have being doing since the 'Wrong Bro's left the ground:-)We drivers could write volumes about nothing, this thread is volume 1
Wmk2
Originally Posted by Glecki
When blasting off and letting ATC know you will be climbing to a particular level in controlled airspace but won't enter without a clearance, one might say 'pending clearance', or similar.
Originally Posted by Compressor Stall
Why does that matter as the other pilot can't go to 9000 until you're confirmed through the next level anyway. You might have "left" 9000, but still be at 8950...
Glad we had this discussion; today I said "Left 9000" and the ATC asked me how many orbits was I going to do? I said 9000 divided by 360.
Heard on the freq today(Seattle FIR) "OUTA Two For Oh for Three Oh Oh". Yah I guess it doesn't meet the anal retentive standards of the ICAO weenies but everybody understood what was being said, and North America still has the least number of airline accidents per 100,000 hrs flown, than anywhere else in the world......
It's "leaving".
Many moons ago a memo/aic or something was put out stating NOT TO USE "left" due possible confusion with a heading instruction. In the wake of an incident that involved this very subject.
End of story
Many moons ago a memo/aic or something was put out stating NOT TO USE "left" due possible confusion with a heading instruction. In the wake of an incident that involved this very subject.
End of story
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..due possible confusion with a heading instruction.
I doubt very much that there is that much lack of common sense out there!
Reading this rubbish is doing my head in. From this day forth, I am going to say 'going UP' or 'going DOWN' (as the actress said to the Bishop.)
Bladeangle
As to reporting requirements when identified...
AIP Enr 1.1 para 11.3.5
Pilots must report maintaining an assigned level, unless ATC has advised IDENTIFIED.
The principle is that on first contact with a station, you verfify your altimeter reading so that ATC can confirm it is within 300' of what you txpdr is broadcasting. If you are identified, they can see on radar when you reach or depart a level, hence no need to report unless requested.
Nitpicker has it right.
Capt Bloggs
Reference?
AIP Gen 3.4 para 5.14.8
Item 2 Airborne Report. PASSING (Level) CLIMBING TO (Level).
As to reporting requirements when identified...
AIP Enr 1.1 para 11.3.5
Pilots must report maintaining an assigned level, unless ATC has advised IDENTIFIED.
The principle is that on first contact with a station, you verfify your altimeter reading so that ATC can confirm it is within 300' of what you txpdr is broadcasting. If you are identified, they can see on radar when you reach or depart a level, hence no need to report unless requested.
Nitpicker has it right.
Capt Bloggs
Reference?
AIP Gen 3.4 para 5.14.8
Item 2 Airborne Report. PASSING (Level) CLIMBING TO (Level).
How does one misinterpret a pilot reporting "Left FL X/ X000'" with a heading instruction?
A response of
"Left 200" meaning "leaving fl 200" is easily interpreted
as "im turning left heading 200".
Something like this is EXACTLY why the incident occurred and hence
emphasis on correct RT and use of "leaving" was highlighted.
Two different words is impossible to confuse.
You often hear people drop the "flight level" part . If you use "left" instead of "leaving" it is easy to see how confusion can occur .
If ATC wants us to say "pending clearance" to let them know that yes, I promise I won't enter CTA without a clearance, then they would have it put into AIP. What next, call the tower and always say "holding short", just to let ATC know you are not going to take off without a clearance?
The point isn't just about 'pending clearance', however, its about using plain language to get a particular message across - the AIP states very clearly that this is what you SHOULD do in the absence of a standard phrase.
'Leaving FLxxx' is the standard phraseology, 'left FLxxx' is plain language that tells the controller its now past tense. Its not the big deal some want to make it out to be.
Originally Posted by Spelling Nazi
"Left 200" meaning "leaving fl 200" is easily interpreted
as "im turning left heading 200".
Something like this is EXACTLY why the incident occurred
as "im turning left heading 200".
Something like this is EXACTLY why the incident occurred
As the call you mentioned would have been done only by a pilot, surely the only result would have been from ATC: "WTF are you doing again?". The aeroplane wouldn't have been turning, it would have been doing exactly what ATC thought it was going to do, leave FL200. Apart from a slack-@rse driver, what's the problem?
Originally Posted by Make it happen captain
If you are identified, they can see on radar when you reach or depart a level, hence no need to report unless requested.Nitpicker has it right
Reference?
AIP Gen 3.4 para 5.14.8
Item 2 Airborne Report. PASSING (Level) CLIMBING TO (Level).
AIP Gen 3.4 para 5.14.8
Item 2 Airborne Report. PASSING (Level) CLIMBING TO (Level).
Only in Australia would you have have a thread on a subject like this and it runs for 3 pages what's more.
I found this to be rather unusual but then again I had to remind myself we are talking about Australia, where they often do it "better" than the rest of the world.
No, you must report leaving/left when you whenever depart a level, even if identified, reference already provided in post #22: ENR 1.7 4.1.6.
I would have put my money on Nitpicker and Make it happen Captain as being correct, that's how it is in other parts of the world.
I found this to be rather unusual but then again I had to remind myself we are talking about Australia, where they often do it "better" than the rest of the world.
Originally Posted by Make it happen captain
If you are identified, they can see on radar when you reach or depart a level, hence no need to report unless requested.Nitpicker has it right
If you are identified, they can see on radar when you reach or depart a level, hence no need to report unless requested.Nitpicker has it right
Can't recall but that's the gist of why the
emphasis on "leaving". I remember getting the memo/ AIC or whatever it was very clearly.
Google it. It will be out there somewhere . Gotta go. I'm needed to fight trolls back in the RPT thread.
emphasis on "leaving". I remember getting the memo/ AIC or whatever it was very clearly.
Google it. It will be out there somewhere . Gotta go. I'm needed to fight trolls back in the RPT thread.
So Bloggs, why don't you show everyone here where it says "LEFT (level)" in the book?
The phraseology for pilot responses uses;
CHANGING TO,
MAINTAINING,
DESCENDING TO
CLIMBING TO
LOOKING,
RESUMING,
HOLDING,
LINING UP,
HOLDING SHORT,
TAXIING,
TURNING,
HEADING,
TRACKING....
Still that difficult to see the pattern?
ps, AIP ENR 1.1 12.1.4 Uses the phrase "LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO".
A SID can use the phrasing LEFT (OR RIGHT) (three digits). NOWHERE is a level change referenced as "LEFT".
Comment reserved on identified requirements...
The phraseology for pilot responses uses;
CHANGING TO,
MAINTAINING,
DESCENDING TO
CLIMBING TO
LOOKING,
RESUMING,
HOLDING,
LINING UP,
HOLDING SHORT,
TAXIING,
TURNING,
HEADING,
TRACKING....
Still that difficult to see the pattern?
ps, AIP ENR 1.1 12.1.4 Uses the phrase "LEAVING FLIGHT LEVEL TWO NINER ZERO".
A SID can use the phrasing LEFT (OR RIGHT) (three digits). NOWHERE is a level change referenced as "LEFT".
Comment reserved on identified requirements...
As an aside, this report is quite enlightening...
http://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/i...File/9957/2350
Drifting, but humorous excerpt...
(a) JNB:Bankstown Tower. Juliet November Bravo, 2RN inbound with alpha.
(b) Tower:Juliet November Bravo. Bankstown Tower.
Follow a Cherokee turning downwind.
(c) JNB:Looking for traffic. Juliet November Bravo.
Unable to locate the turkey.
(d) Tower:silence.
Juliet November Bravo. Preceding traffic is in your 2 o'clock and it is a white and blue CHE-RO-KEE. Report sighted.
(e) JNB:Traffic sighted. Sighted Cherokee.
http://www.equinoxpub.com/journals/i...File/9957/2350
Drifting, but humorous excerpt...
(a) JNB:Bankstown Tower. Juliet November Bravo, 2RN inbound with alpha.
(b) Tower:Juliet November Bravo. Bankstown Tower.
Follow a Cherokee turning downwind.
(c) JNB:Looking for traffic. Juliet November Bravo.
Unable to locate the turkey.
(d) Tower:silence.
Juliet November Bravo. Preceding traffic is in your 2 o'clock and it is a white and blue CHE-RO-KEE. Report sighted.
(e) JNB:Traffic sighted. Sighted Cherokee.
So Bloggs, why don't you show everyone here where it says "LEFT (level)" in the book?
Tally Ho the Turkey!
As to reporting requirements when identified...
AIP Enr 1.1 para 11.3.5
Pilots must report maintaining an assigned level, unless ATC has advised IDENTIFIED.
The principle is that on first contact with a station, you verfify your altimeter reading so that ATC can confirm it is within 300' of what you txpdr is broadcasting. If you are identified, they can see on radar when you reach or depart a level, hence no need to report unless requested.
Nitpicker has it right.
AIP Enr 1.1 para 11.3.5
Pilots must report maintaining an assigned level, unless ATC has advised IDENTIFIED.
The principle is that on first contact with a station, you verfify your altimeter reading so that ATC can confirm it is within 300' of what you txpdr is broadcasting. If you are identified, they can see on radar when you reach or depart a level, hence no need to report unless requested.
Nitpicker has it right.
Love it!!
My favourite is the 3rd post by Happybandit, you Sir are an inspiration!
Not only did Happybandit in one post combine "This old chestnut" with "said checkie" they also peppered their response with gems such as "correct terminology" and "Suffice to say".
Keep up the good work
My favourite is the 3rd post by Happybandit, you Sir are an inspiration!
Not only did Happybandit in one post combine "This old chestnut" with "said checkie" they also peppered their response with gems such as "correct terminology" and "Suffice to say".
Keep up the good work