Channel 7 Sunday Night Program About VH-MDX
Many posters on this site seem to be obsessed with keeping the status quo.
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Evilroy,
Could not have put that better myself.
Dick, you say the pilot couldn't contact the military controller directly...
Yet ESV and AZC were in direct contact with Williamtown...
Could not have put that better myself.
Dick, you say the pilot couldn't contact the military controller directly...
Yet ESV and AZC were in direct contact with Williamtown...
Thread Starter
Rats. You are showing your ignorance of the ridiculous rules at the time.
The pilot could not call ATC directly when OCTA until told to do so by the FSO.
Yes. Even if you wanted to get your transponder checked you called the FSO who relayed the message to the ATC and then the FSO came back to you with the answer.
And I too dislike the way I have to go about this important safety change.
In fact it makes me feel sick.
However after a decade of letters , meetings , phone calls , committees and more it is clear there is unlikely to be any other way to make these important changes.
And I have only just started. I don't like being lied to by senior military people.
They don't say "we don't agree with you". Quite the opposite but even they can't get their desired changes through.
Australia deserves better.
The pilot could not call ATC directly when OCTA until told to do so by the FSO.
Yes. Even if you wanted to get your transponder checked you called the FSO who relayed the message to the ATC and then the FSO came back to you with the answer.
And I too dislike the way I have to go about this important safety change.
In fact it makes me feel sick.
However after a decade of letters , meetings , phone calls , committees and more it is clear there is unlikely to be any other way to make these important changes.
And I have only just started. I don't like being lied to by senior military people.
They don't say "we don't agree with you". Quite the opposite but even they can't get their desired changes through.
Australia deserves better.
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Having grown up in an industry where most pilots if they ever flew over 500 feet they get a nose bleed need a bex and a lie down. It was instilled in me very very early reduce your risk when ever you can. Last night I saw his flight track over the ranges. This is toattly unacepebable. There was no reason to have to fly over that country.
To fly over that you should have 4 engines two isles and a drinks trolly. The pilots I was brought up around half a dozen of them would have more hours than prob every person on this site combined.
People say Ag flying is to dangous. We'll I think what I saw last night was shame full. Anyone that thinks that what the status quo is ok sorry you need your head read.
Cheers
To fly over that you should have 4 engines two isles and a drinks trolly. The pilots I was brought up around half a dozen of them would have more hours than prob every person on this site combined.
People say Ag flying is to dangous. We'll I think what I saw last night was shame full. Anyone that thinks that what the status quo is ok sorry you need your head read.
Cheers
How about we make the it a Prohibited Area, then no-one will ever have to fly over it again.
Problem solved.
Problem solved.
There was no reason to have to fly over that country.
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Arm
For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. It was in correct of him to do what he did. But if your in that position and have to wait for cleareance you can see why he pressed on. I'm not for one minute saying he did the right thing at all but I can see why he did. I'm sure that had he had an option of a straight run via a coastal lane he would have taken it. The fact that still after all this time it's the same it's seriously obscene
Cheers
For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. It was in correct of him to do what he did. But if your in that position and have to wait for cleareance you can see why he pressed on. I'm not for one minute saying he did the right thing at all but I can see why he did. I'm sure that had he had an option of a straight run via a coastal lane he would have taken it. The fact that still after all this time it's the same it's seriously obscene
Cheers
Thread Starter
I would say there is a chance that he thought he would be given a clearance without delay down the coast .
When he was told to remain outside the Williamtown zone and he was getting closer to the invisible line in the sky where he would have his license lifted if he crossed without permission from the RAAF he decided to take the chance and head on the riskier inland route as required by the RAAF if you dare to fly down the coast from Coolangatta to Bankstown .
A little later the gyro failed so instead of heading south towards Singleton he headed west towards the top of the mountain range.
Of course this error may have been visible on the RAAF radar but it wasn't the responsibility of that operator - even if the mistake was seen- to inform anyone.
The poor FSO ( that pilot by law must remain on his frequency ) just has a microphone , headset and a few paper strips and had no idea the radar screen at Williamtown could have easily shown the catastrophe unfolding.
And not one recommendation was made by the BASI investigators to fix this. That's resistance to change for you that continues today.
When he was told to remain outside the Williamtown zone and he was getting closer to the invisible line in the sky where he would have his license lifted if he crossed without permission from the RAAF he decided to take the chance and head on the riskier inland route as required by the RAAF if you dare to fly down the coast from Coolangatta to Bankstown .
A little later the gyro failed so instead of heading south towards Singleton he headed west towards the top of the mountain range.
Of course this error may have been visible on the RAAF radar but it wasn't the responsibility of that operator - even if the mistake was seen- to inform anyone.
The poor FSO ( that pilot by law must remain on his frequency ) just has a microphone , headset and a few paper strips and had no idea the radar screen at Williamtown could have easily shown the catastrophe unfolding.
And not one recommendation was made by the BASI investigators to fix this. That's resistance to change for you that continues today.
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You can't have your cake and eat it too
That was 1981. You keep arguing for 'change', but surely you mean change to the current system not change to the system that existed 30 years ago?
Yes,ATC, not Flight Service, are now responsible for the airspace that MDX flew through that night. Yes, they have radar and flight plan details. Yes, there is one less step in the coordination chain to WLM.
So what is your point? Do you want to change the CURRENT system? If you do, why are you mentioning Flight Service when they ceased to exist 15 years ago?
Thread Starter
My point is that the change that allowed pilots to talk directly to the person with the radar screen was resisted by many within the bureaucracy .
However the change has undoubtedly improved safety.
Now we need a change that allows pilots to plan the safest way down the coast - that is remove the RAAF imposed prohibition of filing a plan over Williamtown.
Yes , sometimes a pilot may be delayed but I bet in most cases the military controllers will get civilian aircraft on the most direct and safest route.
Remove the restriction .
However the change has undoubtedly improved safety.
Now we need a change that allows pilots to plan the safest way down the coast - that is remove the RAAF imposed prohibition of filing a plan over Williamtown.
Yes , sometimes a pilot may be delayed but I bet in most cases the military controllers will get civilian aircraft on the most direct and safest route.
Remove the restriction .
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I have no argument with Dick. I think all he has ever tried to do is improve the flying environment.
I find this post quite amazing....
well what else was he going to do arm.... he couldn't stop in mid air while the bureaucracy caught up with him!!!
gods some of you guys have blinkered views of the world.
have you ever tried flying yourself?
if you ever did you'd find Dick is pretty well on the money.
I find this post quite amazing....
There was no reason to have to fly over that country.
Yep, spot on, so why did he, at night, into icing conditions and with unserviceable instruments? That's the real issue, not the airspace or anything else.
Yep, spot on, so why did he, at night, into icing conditions and with unserviceable instruments? That's the real issue, not the airspace or anything else.
gods some of you guys have blinkered views of the world.
have you ever tried flying yourself?
if you ever did you'd find Dick is pretty well on the money.
How many hours did the PIC have? Who trained him? Was he trained in basic instrument flying?
Seems the holes on the Swiss cheese lined up on that night BUT the PIC is the last line of defense to close the holes in the Cheese and it seems he either didn't know how or wasn't trained to.
A situation he most likely shouldn't have gotten himself into in the first place.
When an Airline accident happens the investigators look at all contributing factors including the actions of the crew themselves, the training of the crew and the operator. Just as in QF10 BKK over run.
Had the PIC flown through this area before? Was he familiar with the area?
Why did he turn toward the hills at night not knowing if he could maintain VFR?? ( I'm assuming he was NVFR? )
I fly into some pretty crappy places around Asia and I sure a sh** ain't going to put my aircraft in harms way because ATC won't cooperate. I'll declare a PAN or a MAYDAY if I have to.
Edit----seems his DG failed later on? So obviously he didn't intend to fly over the mountains?
Seems the holes on the Swiss cheese lined up on that night BUT the PIC is the last line of defense to close the holes in the Cheese and it seems he either didn't know how or wasn't trained to.
A situation he most likely shouldn't have gotten himself into in the first place.
When an Airline accident happens the investigators look at all contributing factors including the actions of the crew themselves, the training of the crew and the operator. Just as in QF10 BKK over run.
Had the PIC flown through this area before? Was he familiar with the area?
Why did he turn toward the hills at night not knowing if he could maintain VFR?? ( I'm assuming he was NVFR? )
I fly into some pretty crappy places around Asia and I sure a sh** ain't going to put my aircraft in harms way because ATC won't cooperate. I'll declare a PAN or a MAYDAY if I have to.
Edit----seems his DG failed later on? So obviously he didn't intend to fly over the mountains?
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Gerry I'll answer your question. No I'm me me alone no one else but me. So there.
In around 1985 a 210 took of out of ybkn as he took off he pull the mixture to ICO resulting in a all loose on board 5 as I recall. A baron took off out of ybkn and between goulburn and Canberra on the way to the snow fields crashed with a loose of another 5. Both of these accidents where low time pilots on type and both endorsed on the aircraft that week.
Make you think dose it.
And stop the raaf bashing. God giver a break
Cheers
In around 1985 a 210 took of out of ybkn as he took off he pull the mixture to ICO resulting in a all loose on board 5 as I recall. A baron took off out of ybkn and between goulburn and Canberra on the way to the snow fields crashed with a loose of another 5. Both of these accidents where low time pilots on type and both endorsed on the aircraft that week.
Make you think dose it.
And stop the raaf bashing. God giver a break
Cheers
Oh I don't know I couldn't see any grammatical errors there but for the last word 'cheers', should have been 'beers'
I can't believe this is still being bashed out here. Obviously the PIC made several decisions that night along the way that culminated in these poor buggers demise. Now at the end of the day despite all the little 'outs' the PIC had like staying put at Cooly, declaring a Mayday & heading straight for the coast where he could see straight thru whatever CTZ he saw fit etc etc he felt at the time to continue the flight under now obvious duress, peer pressure, & fear of failure the latter a very real human trait we ALL have.
Hands up those in here who would have turned towards the high country given the same circumstances? Obviously no one is going to own up & say 'I would' as hindsight is a beautiful thing & being judged amongst your peers is the worst feeling for pilots mostly.
This whole sorry saga should be a lesson for ALL as NO ONE is immune!
Wmk2
I can't believe this is still being bashed out here. Obviously the PIC made several decisions that night along the way that culminated in these poor buggers demise. Now at the end of the day despite all the little 'outs' the PIC had like staying put at Cooly, declaring a Mayday & heading straight for the coast where he could see straight thru whatever CTZ he saw fit etc etc he felt at the time to continue the flight under now obvious duress, peer pressure, & fear of failure the latter a very real human trait we ALL have.
Hands up those in here who would have turned towards the high country given the same circumstances? Obviously no one is going to own up & say 'I would' as hindsight is a beautiful thing & being judged amongst your peers is the worst feeling for pilots mostly.
This whole sorry saga should be a lesson for ALL as NO ONE is immune!
Wmk2
well what else was he going to do arm.... he couldn't stop in mid air while the bureaucracy caught up with him!!!
gods some of you guys have blinkered views of the world.
have you ever tried flying yourself?
if you ever did you'd find Dick is pretty well on the money.
gods some of you guys have blinkered views of the world.
have you ever tried flying yourself?
if you ever did you'd find Dick is pretty well on the money.
yr right - the event between Canberra and Goulburn happened in 1992 was VH-JDL at Tarago. The causes identified were overloading and lack of recency.
PS - When you refer to ybkn I assume you mean YSBK (Bankstown)?
PS - When you refer to ybkn I assume you mean YSBK (Bankstown)?
The crash of VH-JDL was the result of poor risk management and decision making by the PIC (and that is putting it nicely!).
Now where have I seen that before?
Dr
PS: Thankfully, the Williamstown airspace was NOT an issue in this case!
Now where have I seen that before?
Dr
PS: Thankfully, the Williamstown airspace was NOT an issue in this case!