How to thread drift in 720 posts!!!
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OK, Yr Right, with all of the blow-hard you have mustered, you still haven't answered my questions.
I started off trying to educate you on some things you have terribly misguided notions about. I have been a miserable failure in that attempt.
You have been outrun by this august body of knowledgeable folks. Those specks you see in the distance are the rest of aviation, leaving you behind.
I started off trying to educate you on some things you have terribly misguided notions about. I have been a miserable failure in that attempt.
You have been outrun by this august body of knowledgeable folks. Those specks you see in the distance are the rest of aviation, leaving you behind.
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Creampuff
Calling me a liar is simply no answer at all.
The operator involved is well known on the central coast and has been known to use auto brake fluid, auto start solenoids and such like.
A shining example of owner/operator maintenance.
An exhaust valve leak on a compression test is investigated further prior to the cylinder being condemned. Staking the valve and even a further ground run is part ov the process. Once the cylinder is removed a check with kero is carried out. Once confirmed the valve is removed and inspected.
Commercial imperatives of the operator are not high on the list of considerations for commercial operations.
God Bless on this holy weekend
Calling me a liar is simply no answer at all.
The operator involved is well known on the central coast and has been known to use auto brake fluid, auto start solenoids and such like.
A shining example of owner/operator maintenance.
An exhaust valve leak on a compression test is investigated further prior to the cylinder being condemned. Staking the valve and even a further ground run is part ov the process. Once the cylinder is removed a check with kero is carried out. Once confirmed the valve is removed and inspected.
Commercial imperatives of the operator are not high on the list of considerations for commercial operations.
God Bless on this holy weekend
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auto brake fluid.
an interesting nonsense.
a Dot 3 brake fluid is hydroscopic organic material that I wouldn't use in aircraft.
but!
a Dot 4 brake fluid is petroleum based.
the aviation certified brake fluid I use is actually an automatic transmission fluid made by Royco. it is petroleum based.
so if you were using a Dot 4 brake fluid why wouldn't that work?????
an interesting nonsense.
a Dot 3 brake fluid is hydroscopic organic material that I wouldn't use in aircraft.
but!
a Dot 4 brake fluid is petroleum based.
the aviation certified brake fluid I use is actually an automatic transmission fluid made by Royco. it is petroleum based.
so if you were using a Dot 4 brake fluid why wouldn't that work?????
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W8
No not red fluid at all, standard brake fluid, the type that causes the seals to swell and go soggy. Cost the operator close to $2000 for the tear down of the system and reseal
God Bless
No not red fluid at all, standard brake fluid, the type that causes the seals to swell and go soggy. Cost the operator close to $2000 for the tear down of the system and reseal
God Bless
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I can answer lots of questions. I am no bully. If someone ask me a question I'll answer it if it's relevant.
As best I can tell all your questions have been answered that are relevant to aviation. How was your score in the free online segment of the APS course? It is called a fun test for a reason. Learning is fun.
Off to go watch more Warbirds, you have all day to have a crack at the multitude of questions we have all asked you.
We really want to know if we are wrong.
Back to the lean of peak question. This might have been covered earlier in the thread and I may have missed the answer.
Can I successfully run lean of peak in my bog standard O320 or IO360 etc with just a single point EGT or even no EGT?
Is this done solely by leaning till the engine runs rough then enriching till the engine runs smoothly just as I was taught many years ago?
Jabba enjoy your trip to Wanaka. Hope the forecast winds aloft (2000 ft 020/40) don't spoil the show and it doesn't get too breezy on the ground. The crap weather has kept me at home.
Can I successfully run lean of peak in my bog standard O320 or IO360 etc with just a single point EGT or even no EGT?
Is this done solely by leaning till the engine runs rough then enriching till the engine runs smoothly just as I was taught many years ago?
Jabba enjoy your trip to Wanaka. Hope the forecast winds aloft (2000 ft 020/40) don't spoil the show and it doesn't get too breezy on the ground. The crap weather has kept me at home.
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***Can I successfully run lean of peak in my bog standard O320 or IO360 etc with just a single point EGT or even no EGT?***
Yes. If one leans from Best Power until there has been a 3-5 knot loss of airspeed the engine will be comfortably LOP. If the engine is smooth at that point, it assures you that:
1) The F:A ratios are balanced.
2) The ignition system is healthy.
3) There are no induction leaks.
If it is not running smoothly at that point then one or more of the above is begging to be addressed.
***Is this done solely by leaning till the engine runs rough then enriching till the engine runs smoothly just as I was taught many years ago?***
No. Unless you know what the F:A ratio spread is you have no way of knowing when the roughness is setting in. In a very well balanced engine it will never get rough--it will just get to idle cutoff and die. In a poorly balanced F:A ratio condition, it may get rough before it ever gets to peak EGT. Lean to roughness wasn't about engine management, it was about "cabin comfort."
Yes. If one leans from Best Power until there has been a 3-5 knot loss of airspeed the engine will be comfortably LOP. If the engine is smooth at that point, it assures you that:
1) The F:A ratios are balanced.
2) The ignition system is healthy.
3) There are no induction leaks.
If it is not running smoothly at that point then one or more of the above is begging to be addressed.
***Is this done solely by leaning till the engine runs rough then enriching till the engine runs smoothly just as I was taught many years ago?***
No. Unless you know what the F:A ratio spread is you have no way of knowing when the roughness is setting in. In a very well balanced engine it will never get rough--it will just get to idle cutoff and die. In a poorly balanced F:A ratio condition, it may get rough before it ever gets to peak EGT. Lean to roughness wasn't about engine management, it was about "cabin comfort."
The F:A ratios are balanced.
What I'm interested in is how practical is LOP for the average pilot flying a C172 or PA28 or anyone flying a four cylinder Lycoming.
The scary issue here is liability. If I try this in a hire machine and for whatever reason things go pear shaped. Saying I was performing this operation according to what I read on PPRuNe is going to be no defence.
Maybe, a disclaimer is required....only do this if your name is on the CofA?
Maybe, a disclaimer is required....only do this if your name is on the CofA?
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***Which begs the question. How well balanced are the F/A ratios (assuming good ignition, no induction leaks) in the average Lycoming O320 O360 IO360?
What I'm interested in is how practical is LOP for the average pilot flying a C172 or PA28 or anyone flying a four cylinder Lycoming.***
For a growing number of carby pilots in the US this is becoming standard operating procedure. Each carbed engine has an optimal carb temp that results in the optimal F:A mixture being delivers equally to all cylinders. This temp is actually given in many POHs (often in the fine print!) Once this temperature is identified, it becomes very easy to set the carb temp to that value and have very good fuel vaporization which results in even F:A ratios and the ability to run the engine much smoother across the entire mixture spectrum. For example, in most 182s, the optimum carb temp is 10dC. Each aircraft type tends to have it's own optimum value. This was once considered standard operating procedure on carbureted engines but the technique was lost. It is very difficult to find this optimal carb temp without and EMS, but with one it is very easy.
In the IO engines, the F:A ratios are balanced by tuning the injectors (GAMIjectors).
As for "legality", there is nothing I can imagine that would be a problem since the entire mixture curve graph is published in the POHs. If the POH recommends 50dF ROP and you run it 100dF ROP, is that a violation?
What I'm interested in is how practical is LOP for the average pilot flying a C172 or PA28 or anyone flying a four cylinder Lycoming.***
For a growing number of carby pilots in the US this is becoming standard operating procedure. Each carbed engine has an optimal carb temp that results in the optimal F:A mixture being delivers equally to all cylinders. This temp is actually given in many POHs (often in the fine print!) Once this temperature is identified, it becomes very easy to set the carb temp to that value and have very good fuel vaporization which results in even F:A ratios and the ability to run the engine much smoother across the entire mixture spectrum. For example, in most 182s, the optimum carb temp is 10dC. Each aircraft type tends to have it's own optimum value. This was once considered standard operating procedure on carbureted engines but the technique was lost. It is very difficult to find this optimal carb temp without and EMS, but with one it is very easy.
In the IO engines, the F:A ratios are balanced by tuning the injectors (GAMIjectors).
As for "legality", there is nothing I can imagine that would be a problem since the entire mixture curve graph is published in the POHs. If the POH recommends 50dF ROP and you run it 100dF ROP, is that a violation?
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**Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Airworthiness Advisory Circulars - Part 6 - General advice**
Yr Right, I know what that says without being schooled. My post was NOT about what CASA or anyone else "thinks" but what the SCIENCE is. It was to educate you, which seems to be a difficult endeavor. Others here "get that." You need not quote outdated regs to somehow try to convince us that a government agency is right and the science is wrong. It isn't.
The choice is ours to be sheeple or independent thinkers and grow in our knowledge and understanding.
Continuing to post non-contributory items while ignoring answering very specific questions is noncontributory to adult discussion.
You said you would answer my questions and you have not. It seems that you've been given quite enough time to research the answers if you did not know them.
If one wishes to play in the adult sand box, it is beneficial for one to act like an adult.
Yr Right, I know what that says without being schooled. My post was NOT about what CASA or anyone else "thinks" but what the SCIENCE is. It was to educate you, which seems to be a difficult endeavor. Others here "get that." You need not quote outdated regs to somehow try to convince us that a government agency is right and the science is wrong. It isn't.
The choice is ours to be sheeple or independent thinkers and grow in our knowledge and understanding.
Continuing to post non-contributory items while ignoring answering very specific questions is noncontributory to adult discussion.
You said you would answer my questions and you have not. It seems that you've been given quite enough time to research the answers if you did not know them.
If one wishes to play in the adult sand box, it is beneficial for one to act like an adult.
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The good ol O320
I have a C172 with the O320-E2D, I have a Single point CHT & EGT fitted, when in cruise I will lean until I get an RPM drop which corresponds to peak, or just past peak EGT. I only do this once I'm running less than 75% power, determined by RPM and density altitude (approx. 2500 @ 2500', 2600 @ 5000' and 2700 @ 9000'). I do not know if I'm running LOP on all cylinders, but it is usually on peak or just lean of peak - 40 deg or so, on cylinder 3 (the one with the EGT probe), but what I do notice is my CHT's which drop from 380-400 degrees to below 350. I am getting about 118 KTAS at 8000' for 30 litres per hour and the engine is running smooth. I have been told that this procedure should not hurt the engine as it is under 75% power. I would love to do the APS course (and will next time it is within 300nm of home) but I'm hesitant to install an EMS in the aircraft (as I'm hoping to upgrade the aircraft in the near future). I could of course run 100 deg ROP but the CHT's get upto 400 and as I understand, the lower the CHTs the better. Of course if the above is all wrong then I would be very interested is learning what I can do practically to run my engine at its best with what I have.
Cheers, Dexta.
Cheers, Dexta.
Last edited by Dexta; 19th Apr 2014 at 00:08. Reason: Spelling and grammar
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Somebody that hasn't attended the yr right school of knowledge. Cessna 206, my bolding.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...t=email#221870
I'm forced to ask the question of yr right, if LOP is so bad why is it that people who run LOP have such a trouble free run? They telling fibs?
Operations are almost exclusively LOP with fuel burns about 10 GPH—speed is not important and fuel is very expensive in Central America. This has allowed us to keep the engine running cool and healthy to well past TBO—we only recently replaced it with a factory reman. Operating costs run $155 per hour, not including engine reserve.
I'm forced to ask the question of yr right, if LOP is so bad why is it that people who run LOP have such a trouble free run? They telling fibs?
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W8
"a Dot 4 brake fluid is petroleum based"
I was alarmed to hear that so just checked the back of my bottle of dot 4 which says, inter alia, "This is a premium non petroleum based product"
"a Dot 4 brake fluid is petroleum based"
I was alarmed to hear that so just checked the back of my bottle of dot 4 which says, inter alia, "This is a premium non petroleum based product"
Walter: It is very difficult to find this optimal carb temp without and EMS, but with one it is very easy.
In the IO engines, the F:A ratios are balanced by tuning the injectors (GAMIjectors).
In the IO engines, the F:A ratios are balanced by tuning the injectors (GAMIjectors).
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Oils Arnt oils nor are orings not all orings. An ms28775- is not interchangeable with an ms 29513 - yet they look the same. That's why we have ms and an and nas etc and I believe the the repair bill was 20k and not 2k as the whole u/c system was removed and re sealed.
Chees.
Chees.
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Dexta,
The only issue of running LOP without an EGT on each cylinder (and I suspect this is were most problems arise) is, that you have to get into a slightly different mindset with LOP and understand what your engine is doing. This is where the APS seminar helps. I really think a decent engine management understanding is essential before operating LOP.
If I remember back I think one of the first things that Walter said to me when I did his course years ago, that has really stuck with me ever since. Think of every Cyl as an individual engine, your trick is to get them all flying in perfect formation to become a single unit or engine. So unless all Cyl are producing roughly the same horsepower they wont be in formation. Well that may not be his exact words but that's the simple thought process that helped me understand what's in front or beside me and what I need to strive to achieve and I ask our pilots to think of an engine the same way as a series of engines that are connected by a common shaft.
When leaning to lean side of peak EGT you need to watch for the last cyl to peak, not your first as you would when running ROP and have always been taught. If you dont and you don't have a tight fuel spread or F/A ratio, then as you lean you may have some cyl's LOP (if you are watching for first EGT to peak and lean past peak EGT) but you may also have some at peak or 10-40 ROP and not lean or rich enough and in the danger zone. How can you do this with a single point EMS.
If you do this with a higher power setting then you can potentially have damage the like of what Yr right is seeing in his LOP operations disasters with cylinders showing detonation and burnt hot valves as that odd cylinder not flying in formation has crashed. So without an EMS in my mind, you really are really running blind. With a EMS you can pickup the start of light detonation and stop it before it causes any damage
I ask our pilots monitor our EDM's not only to lean but as part of their scan in flight as I feel individual CHT and EGT is very important in understanding what's happening in front of you and could well save your life by detecting an issue no matter if you run LOP or ROP, well before your other gauges react or you hear, feel a problem or see the oil on the windscreen.
If you invest in a EMS you will find after a while engine management will all make more sense.
I might ad we don't sell or prefer any after market EMS in fact we have three different brands and it all comes back to price and personal preference and how many bells and whistles you want.
For me I just require all CHT, all EGT, TIT for turbo's and Oil Temp. FF and HP is nice but I found that it easy to rely on FF and this could lead to a disaster.
For example we have had an issue in the past with K factor on FF being accidently changed and pilots relying so much on EMS figures that dips in our 210's pre and post were not getting done, laziness and thinking EMS figures looked more accurate than a mark on a stick. Inflight fuel calculations were not being done as they relied on the EMS, so the real consumption was different to the EMS figures pilot had used. CP picked it up on end of week review of fuel consumption figures for the particular aircraft and it wasn't an issue, it was however a warning to make sure with FF on a EMS you only used it as guide and get to know your EMS/aircraft and the importance of trending with all that beautiful data you have recorded. Get to understand your data.
Sorry to ramble on a bit. Thought I would try and give you a operators perspective after maybe 10,000 hours or more of EMS operations and LOP.
The only issue of running LOP without an EGT on each cylinder (and I suspect this is were most problems arise) is, that you have to get into a slightly different mindset with LOP and understand what your engine is doing. This is where the APS seminar helps. I really think a decent engine management understanding is essential before operating LOP.
If I remember back I think one of the first things that Walter said to me when I did his course years ago, that has really stuck with me ever since. Think of every Cyl as an individual engine, your trick is to get them all flying in perfect formation to become a single unit or engine. So unless all Cyl are producing roughly the same horsepower they wont be in formation. Well that may not be his exact words but that's the simple thought process that helped me understand what's in front or beside me and what I need to strive to achieve and I ask our pilots to think of an engine the same way as a series of engines that are connected by a common shaft.
When leaning to lean side of peak EGT you need to watch for the last cyl to peak, not your first as you would when running ROP and have always been taught. If you dont and you don't have a tight fuel spread or F/A ratio, then as you lean you may have some cyl's LOP (if you are watching for first EGT to peak and lean past peak EGT) but you may also have some at peak or 10-40 ROP and not lean or rich enough and in the danger zone. How can you do this with a single point EMS.
If you do this with a higher power setting then you can potentially have damage the like of what Yr right is seeing in his LOP operations disasters with cylinders showing detonation and burnt hot valves as that odd cylinder not flying in formation has crashed. So without an EMS in my mind, you really are really running blind. With a EMS you can pickup the start of light detonation and stop it before it causes any damage
I ask our pilots monitor our EDM's not only to lean but as part of their scan in flight as I feel individual CHT and EGT is very important in understanding what's happening in front of you and could well save your life by detecting an issue no matter if you run LOP or ROP, well before your other gauges react or you hear, feel a problem or see the oil on the windscreen.
If you invest in a EMS you will find after a while engine management will all make more sense.
I might ad we don't sell or prefer any after market EMS in fact we have three different brands and it all comes back to price and personal preference and how many bells and whistles you want.
For me I just require all CHT, all EGT, TIT for turbo's and Oil Temp. FF and HP is nice but I found that it easy to rely on FF and this could lead to a disaster.
For example we have had an issue in the past with K factor on FF being accidently changed and pilots relying so much on EMS figures that dips in our 210's pre and post were not getting done, laziness and thinking EMS figures looked more accurate than a mark on a stick. Inflight fuel calculations were not being done as they relied on the EMS, so the real consumption was different to the EMS figures pilot had used. CP picked it up on end of week review of fuel consumption figures for the particular aircraft and it wasn't an issue, it was however a warning to make sure with FF on a EMS you only used it as guide and get to know your EMS/aircraft and the importance of trending with all that beautiful data you have recorded. Get to understand your data.
Sorry to ramble on a bit. Thought I would try and give you a operators perspective after maybe 10,000 hours or more of EMS operations and LOP.
Mick
Thank you for some educated explanations instead of wanking
As someone who operates GTISO 435hp engines I wouldn't not have an Edm system, it really shows up potential engine problems
Again thanks for an educated point of view
Thank you for some educated explanations instead of wanking
As someone who operates GTISO 435hp engines I wouldn't not have an Edm system, it really shows up potential engine problems
Again thanks for an educated point of view