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Jabiru Bad experience

Old 21st Jan 2014, 11:28
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
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From the current maintenance manual for the 2200 engine.

Aero Oil W Multigrade 15W-50, or equivalent
Lubricant complying with MIL-L-22851C, or
Lycoming Spec. 301F, or Teledyne –
Continental Spec MHF-24B
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 11:32
  #102 (permalink)  
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Jetjr,
Well here we go again hey?


"As far as DS problems go, maybe Im mixing incidents but heres an engine running on mixture of fuels, overheated (something gone very wrong), significant SB not carried out. At least a few issues piling up. What did you expect Jabiru to do? Seems they may have offered reco parts."


No mixture!
Mate the engine never overheated!


Your right! under the previous owner the thru bolt SB was not carried out, this was because Don Richter from Jabiru advised them that it wasn't required and that all engines were being done when they were returned for overhaul! They missed the deadline by 4 days! pretty telling that it snapped one under 200 hrs from Top end overhaul though!


The 3300 on the other hand did have the SB incorporated, and in the report into its demise at 700hrs Jabiru themselves explain that the SB destroyed the bottom end due to closing up the fretted crank cases with the extra torque. So that engine wasn't fit for purpose from the get go!


I for one am not expecting any Jabiru warranty ( there's a reason it was reduced from 500 hrs to 200), what I am expecting though is my consumer rights to be upheld! To talk on The simplest of consumer rights and one of the many basis for claim, neither engine could be described as fit for purpose, of which based on the log books and correspondence a very expensive lawyer has said they are in breech and is preparing the case.


I am so happy for you that you are getting a relatively good run from their product, this thread is about the other 95% of people who are getting shafted day in and day out by them, but congrats to you.


By all means keep pointing your finger, one day you may find it pointing back at you!


(I am sorry this seems a little poorly toned I usually enjoy reading your posts)
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 11:35
  #103 (permalink)  
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XXX,
hope you don't have any failures, LOL cause this will be the reason after the factory investigate:


"Aeroshell 100 for run-in.
W100+ for continued use.

Don't confuse the W's and the +'a as there is also a W100 with no plus".


meant to be Light hearted in tone!
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 11:48
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Lol.Lets hope insurers dont read prune huh?..Or we'd all be stuffed..
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 12:26
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Jaba,

I was in no way questioning your opinion, or inferring you were in any way factory aligned or opinionated. In fact I look forward to your input; you seem to know what you are talking about in most cases.

I just feel that with current technology, better design and manufacture is possible if the dollars are spent wisely. This may include stronger (more expensive) alloys used in component production. If a head needs torqueing down every 25 hours, is this the cheap retaining bolts stretching or the cheap alloys compressing?

Of course it all costs motza dollars in certification, but surely the same cost for any level of design; just higher design and build costs? “Build it and they will come”

This is purely my opinion; I hold no engineering qualifications at all, but have successfully built more than one high performance V8 engine, gearbox, limited slip differential, auto transmission etc. This was all done by research, (Haynes Manuals, God bless em) and following the accepted current engineering practices. Of course, I had an advantage, I was using superior parts with a proven history. I did not have to design or manufacture them myself.

As an aside, I grew up on Cleveland and Windsor 302 and 351 engines. I can still remember the beautiful note they produced running on a twin 2’’ sports exhaust system, particularly the Ford XY GTHO Phase III shifting into top gear some five miles (remember them) out of town.

Last edited by Two_dogs; 21st Jan 2014 at 12:32. Reason: Kant spell proper
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 20:18
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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95% owners with problems?? Is that another evidence based claim. Id point to 95% being happy and 5% complaining loudly and on some cases rightly so.

There are plenty of things jabiru could do better and the Latest tech manuals are pretty good, compared to originals. An issue is the adjustment and changes with no comms to owners and maintainers. An example is the 15w50, was deleted a year or so ago as Shell (or someone) decided it was a very poor choice, so back to W100+ and problems it had. Who knew, i learnt from a presentation @ Ausfly.
Its going to change again soon.
The through bolts were being replaced for free if you took the ac back to bundy, the tightening of the bearings confuses me as torque was the same afaik.

Re the fuel, talk to jabiru and reading documents Avgas is the preferred fuel mainly cos quality is stable. experience shows me what you get from Service stations is pot luck and pretty common to get bad batch.

Many of the current problems have developed with newer hydraulic lifters implemented and points to preignition to me.
Jabiru will still sell you a zero time solid lifter type now so will Camit, trouble is the LSA rules prevent it in 24 aircraft.
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 22:19
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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xperience shows me what you get from Service stations is pot luck and pretty common to get bad batch.
There are some other threads where Jabawocky and I have debated this in detail, but I maintain the Australian refined fuel has quite good "batch control".

The bigger problem issues are:
1. companies who import fuel bought on the international spot market
2. service station sites adding cheapening chemicals
3. Service station sites with old ingound tanks which let in contaminants

If you are going to use Mogas stick to 98 octane fuel from a high volume Shell, BP or Mobil site. These are the only companies who refine in Australia and therefore have a consistent supply line. All other service station brands are buying fuel from somewhere else that is unknown.
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 22:29
  #108 (permalink)  
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"95% owners with problems?? Is that another evidence based claim"


no that was a stab (frustration can do that to a usually nice bloke)


By stating "is that another evidence based claim" are you inferring that what I am saying isn't based on evidence or fact?


Jetjr,
I am happy that you are having a great run with your Jabiru's and the factory's support I really am that's not sarcasm.


This however is not what I have experienced, I have done nothing wrong in the operation of these aircraft, they have been by the book.
If I was an outsider looking in I would probably default to a surely they can't be that bad, after all aren't the certified to fly over populous areas?


But a good indication that there is multiple problems out there is the constant revision and changes to just about every part of operating these aircraft and engines.
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 22:36
  #109 (permalink)  
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Jetjr, "Many of the current problems have developed with newer hydraulic lifters implemented and points to pre ignition to me.
Jabiru will still sell you a zero time solid lifter type now so will Camit, trouble is the LSA rules prevent it in 24 aircraft"


The hydraulic lifters are a bit suspect, I have seen dings in the tops of pistons from what I can only suspect to be "pump up" or incorrect preload on the lifter.
I was told by camit and I quote " yeah the hydraulic lifter engines haven't been very good".


Having said that the roller cam engine now in my J230 seems to be going well, but its early days yet.
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 23:06
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Jabiru bad experience?

Yeah, I've had a Jabiru bad experience - flew with Jaba in one!

Dr
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 23:10
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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One defence is that they are cheap and fairly easy to work on. Great for home kit builders who like to tinker with the engine in their hangar. However, in a flying school situation where L2's and LAME's are involved, costs can quickly get out of hand.

Jabiru valve $45
Rotax 912 valve $280
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Old 21st Jan 2014, 23:38
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Jabiru valve $45
Rotax 912 valve $280
jabiru valve replaced every 200 hrs, $45x10 =$450
rotax valve replaced at TBO 2000 hrs. =$280

actually when it comes to prices, i have heard a new 3300 is $19,000AUD
a new 912 ULS is $18,500 USD...
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Old 22nd Jan 2014, 00:23
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Absolutely agree there Wal, just looking for a positive side if there is one.

Ultralights, problem is that the turbo Rotax at 115hp is in the mid $30k range and the J3300 is 19k for ~128hp ... and that is why people are still buying them.
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Old 22nd Jan 2014, 08:02
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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912 vs 3300 ....... your 20 hp short in a 912
912 is an exceptional engine, no debate, but whats the relevance

At least compare 914 price, 2012 it was over $30K USD
Not convinced it has the same reliability reputation as 912

Your right Motz, the 15W50 is still in there, Seminar in 2012 saw this being strongly recommended to go back to W100+ from Jabiru and others.
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Old 22nd Jan 2014, 08:13
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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from what i have heard, a J230 airframe with a 100Hp 912 performs equally as well as one with the Jab 3300 fitted. though i dont have any facts on hand, could possibly be just the advantage of a different prop. who knows, but the info i have heard is from pilots who have flown a 912 equipped J230/200 so for comparison of similar performance, the 912 would be equiv of the 3300. as said before, this is based just on hangar talk.
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Old 22nd Jan 2014, 10:43
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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The 912 100 hp is only any good for 600kgs if that.
Just hangar talk I'm afraid. There's a 912 J230 in NsW and performance is reported to be underwhelming. Happy to put anyone in touch with them if required.
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Old 22nd Jan 2014, 20:50
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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At minimum would need IFA prop, need to add this to engine price and then not OK in RAA I believe
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Old 23rd Jan 2014, 00:11
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Until recently IFA was only ok for a homebuilt RAA, but the regs have changed and IFA's are ok for LSA, just not reversible at this time. I know an LSA floatplane with IFA but they had to disable reverse as that's not covered under ATSM.


I priced up a 914 for a recent project. With a base price of ~$32-34k plus an IFA which is as good as mandatory for a turbo I was looking at around $40k plus custom engine mount plus rooting around fitting it.

I know it's not a turbo but a Jab3300 gets more 5-10 more horsepower for circa $17k with prop.

Fitting a new CAMIT 3300 to throw away at 800 you'd be looking at $20 an hour.

Running off a power by the hour concept, $20 is quite reasonable.
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Old 23rd Jan 2014, 01:32
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Yep, what you are saying Wal goes without saying. Agreed.
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Old 23rd Jan 2014, 04:18
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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just when I was about to buy 2 jabiru engines mick had his shed a conrod and seize in flight.

scratch two purchases.

I am told that Jabiru engines are now made in china.
the appearance of the jabiru lookalike is an effort by the australian company that used to do the contract machining to make something of the disaster that they experienced when the contract ceased.

personally I wish jabiru well. but they have to get engines regularly making TBO before they will really get successful.
disasters dont have a great future in aviation.
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