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ADS-B Mandate ATCs Responsible for Deaths?

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ADS-B Mandate ATCs Responsible for Deaths?

Old 6th Feb 2014, 07:39
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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<yawn>

Is this thread done yet?
CaptainMidnight is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2014, 07:53
  #302 (permalink)  
 
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No.....and who asked you! We are just getting onto something far more interesting.

Akro....but what about CL's lap.....took a long time to break Murphs.
Jabawocky is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2014, 23:36
  #303 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone know where there is a list of specifically which navaids are being decommissioned? I saw a list years ago, but now I can't find anything.

Why do I ask? Because CASA are forcing me to plan a complete panel relay to fit a new C146a GPS and Mode S transponder, I thought it would be appropriate to reconsider what navaids I need. I'd really like to be able to consider what Navaids will be available at my common destinations over the likely life of the new panel. Unreasonable??

Secondly, I have read many times about how these aids are old and uneconomic. I've read how upgrade will cost vaguely $120m, but I have seen nothing that actually looks like someone has built up a number from real costs. If the $120m relates to the 200-odd navaids that will be shutdown, then this averages at $600,000 per unit. However it appears that a brand new Nautel or Thales NDB installation (using an existing building with existing power) might be as little as AUD$50,000.

Does anyone at all get to see real figures and scrutinise them?

Here is an interesting presentation from Nautel:

http://www.nautelnav.com/wp-content/...DB-Systems.pdf

I like the line that NDB's are the navigation aid of last resort and therefore mission critical.

Here is the Thales product:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/de..._datasheet.pdf

Thales boast 35,000 hours between failures. That's inferring 4 years between maintenance. Combined with a running cost less than that to light the average AsA bureaucrat's office the AsA's bleats that its too expensive don't smell right.

But going back to my original question, it would be nice to have some guidelines for (say) the next 10 years before I spend my money.

For GA, ILS is now basically worthless. We have less runways with ILS than Malaysia (do I need to say... Mildura?). This is a country we have just donated 2 customs ships to! VOR's are uncommon outside the J curve. NDB's are the lifeline in remote Australia. But which ones will remain? Does AsA have a plan or are they making it up as they go?
Old Akro is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2014, 00:18
  #304 (permalink)  
 
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Your last sentence probably sums it up.


There is no such thing, (any more), as routine or preventative maintenance so I would wager they will just let them become redundant as they fail and call it natural attrition. Then revert to above sentence.
Frank Arouet is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2014, 00:28
  #305 (permalink)  
 
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Looking through the AsA website.

I can find in great detail its plan and progress to plan for " equity and diversity" of its employees:

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...rt_2009-10.pdf

But I can find NOTHING detailing exactly what airservices will be provided or how that is performing compared with plan.

Is this a dysfunctional organisation or what?
Old Akro is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2014, 00:41
  #306 (permalink)  
 
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Found a tender to demolish old Navaid buildings, but still nothing on the forward plan.

Tender Detail for DEMOLITION OF NAVIGATION AIDS

The interesting thing, is that some of this morning's reading found that overseas, the NDB buildings, power supplies, etc are being re-tasked as GBAS transmitters. Are we prejudicing our ability to roll out a WAS system??

Last edited by Old Akro; 8th Feb 2014 at 01:53.
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 03:34
  #307 (permalink)  
 
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Akro, search the CASA website for NPRM 1105 AS. When you find it, click the link to an 'Annex G'

That is a list of navaids due to be retained, if a navaid is not on that list, then it is due to go.

The only change that I know of is the Sydney VOR, its going.

Alpha

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - NPRM 1105AS
alphacentauri is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2014, 04:43
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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AlphaCentauri

Exactly what I was looking for, although the totals are a bit different from the AsA figures I found.

Interestingly, it basically removes all the AsA navaids used for training in the Melbourne basin. How does this fulfil their charter of promoting safety?

For currency or training if one wants to do an NDB approach the choice will be Moorabbin (too busy for training) or the private one at Latrobe Valley. Full stop. The gone list includes: Essendon, Ballarat, Yarrowee, Cowes, Wonthaggi, Mangalore, Strathbogie,Bendigo, Echuca, Wangaratta, Horsham, Nhill, Bairnsdale

For currency or training if one wants to do a VOR approach the choice will be:
Mangalore or Avalon (Private). Full stop. The gone list includes Cowes, Wonthaggi, Yarrowee, Eildon Weir, Nhill

Getting or maintaining a MECIR is about to get a whole lot more expensive and Lindsay Fox is about to make more money at Avalon.

There might be a business in someone like Leongatha buying a couple of old units from AsA and installing them to charge for training!

Seriously, we are a first world country that prides itself on education & training. Why wouldn't we leave Yarrowee, Phillip Is or Wonthaggi with its NDB / VOR for training??
Old Akro is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2014, 20:02
  #309 (permalink)  
 
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Probably got this??

OA for you..

Drop-in ADS-B Out

Cheers

Sarcs
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 22:02
  #310 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like a nice piece of kit Sarcs, and slide in slide out definitely the way to go but here's the rub...

When coupled with a Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) GPS,
That's the bit that ain't cheap..
Clearedtoreenter is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2014, 22:59
  #311 (permalink)  
 
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clearedtoenter

Correct!!

The C146a (WAAS) GPS is the expensive part.

Plus, it needs a grey code altitude transponder. And the WAAS GPS needs a new antennae & cabling, so its not a simple upgrade - even from GNS 430 to GNS430W

Any IFR aircraft with a Garmin 155, 300, 430/ 530 (non waas), King 89 / 94 or heaven forbid an Apollo or Trimble unit will require a new C146a GPS. If you browse through Aviation trader it feels like that will be 80% of all existing IFR aircraft.

AND frequently, when Avioincs say drop in they mean physically, not electrically. There is a very large chance that the rear connector on the rack will need to be replaced.

Reading NPRM 1105 yesterday, its pretty clear that IFR enroute navigation after the start turning off navaids and de-rating the power of many of the remaining ones in early 2016, that only GPS will be acceptable for en-route navigation for any IFR flight.

A question that has been glossed over is whether this will also apply to aircraft on NVMC plans.
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 23:28
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not to mention that WAAS coverage is not avail in AUS.
underfire is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2014, 23:50
  #313 (permalink)  
 
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not to mention that WAAS coverage is not avail in AUS.
But could be available cheaply by using ground based beacons in old NDB facilities (building power supply, antennae structure).

Oops, wait, we are demolishing them all. Doh!
Old Akro is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2014, 11:08
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Sorry my friend, but you would need at least 2 if not 3 geostationary sats..they are a bit pricey (note the cost of the US WAAS is $3 Billion)
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Old 9th Feb 2014, 12:15
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My understanding is that WAAS is just a form of differential GPS (DGPS). An additional beacon is used to improve the accuracy (especially altitude accuracy) of GPS. Surveyors, farmers and crop dusters have been doing this for about 15 years.

GBAS is another form of DGPS, but uses ground based ones instead of geo stationary satellites. I have read that some countries use ADF infrastructure (buildings, power supplies and antennae) for GBAS beacon installation and that if you already have all the bricks & mortar parts, the electronic box for GBAS is relatively cheap.

I had always thought that a network of beacons would be an alternative for Australia to launching a satellite. Its basically what AMSA has done for marine GPS. AMSA have 16 land based DGPS beacons that I always thought provided WAAS type accuracy for the marine equivalent of the aviation J routes.

However, some browsing I just did on the FAA GBAS office site suggests that GBAS requires different GPS units in the aircraft. So, now I'm unsure.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2014, 14:17
  #316 (permalink)  
 
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Old Akro,

WAAS requires specific satellite signals.
WAAS requires aircraft GPS receivers that are WAAS capable.
WAAS requires a small network of ground stations to broadcast correction signal to achieve "WAAS" accuracy, the aircraft does not need to "see" any ground station.

Japanese satellites cover Australia with a WAAS signal, this is a different satellite system to the original over the central Pacific, which was moved when the Australian policy decision to not deploy WAAS was made public.

The value of WAAS, for other than aviation, is rapidly declining, as Generation 3 GPS goes into place, providing positioning accuracy equivalent to WAAS, without the ground based infrastructure.

In the aviation field, for any aircraft with a modern IRS/FMCS system, baro-VNav eliminates the need for WAAS --- the update is about the same as updating an older GPS system to a WAAS capable system.

In summary, the part of the Australian GA fleet that could benefit from WAAS is quite small. - so the benefits of PVG to an ILS like minima, given Australia's overall weather record, is quite small, far smaller than when the WAAS policy decision was made.

Forget WAAS in Australia, it ain't gunna happen. If for no other reason than the fact that AsA couldn't figure out a way to charge for it!!

Tootle pip!!
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Old 9th Feb 2014, 22:21
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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Leadsled said it pretty well.

WAAS requires at least 2 different geosats for coverage, and at least 2 centers.

The ground stations gather the data from the GPS sats. This is all fed to the centers. In the US, there is a center on each coast.

The centers broadcast a hyper-corrected signal up to the 2 geosats, which then broadcast to the coverage area.

You reciever still uses all of the GPS sats, and the WAAS part applies the correction factor.

GBAS is completely different.

A GBAS system is per airport, with at least 3 ant, spaced as far aprt as possible. The GBAS continuously monitors all of the sats avail. The GBAS creates its own correction factor for that location only.
The system broadcasts this correction factor, as well as the code for the final approach for the ac to use. It is a signal broadcast which the ac uses with much the same look alike system as an ILS.

With GBAS, the ac still uses the GPS sats, the GBAS is the correction factor.

Hope that clears it up a bit more.

As noted, there is little hope for WAAS in AUS, but GBAS is a much different story. A typical GBAS unit, installed, is about $3Million per airport. With this you get a max 26 runway ends, and currently cert to Cat I. The signal is accurate enough for CAT III, but it is not cert for it yet. When it does get cert, the system, nor ac will need any mod.

Both Boeing and Airbus offer GBAS at no cost difference on a new ac.
underfire is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2014, 04:24
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The system broadcasts this correction factor, as well as the code for the final approach for the ac to use
And, I am told, AsA can code it so that it is only available to subscribers.
Likewise Galileo, the most accurate signals will only be available to subscribers.

The US Gen 3 GPS is free to users.

Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  
Old 10th Feb 2014, 08:15
  #319 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
And, I am told, AsA can code it so that it is only available to subscribers.
Really???? Please do tell!!!
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Old 10th Feb 2014, 10:19
  #320 (permalink)  
 
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Hempy,
I do not profess to k now the technicalities, either for how you can limit access to either GBAS (LAAS) signals or the precision Galileo signals, only that it can be done.

A significant factor in financing Galileo apparently revolves around this feature, and much $$$$ argument amongst European governments about what happens if the revenue is not up to expectations --- this is part of the reason for the long delays in getting Galileo satellites up.

I am not certain even whether the arguments about which signals will be freely available, or whether all will be available free is yet settled. Galileo is way behind schedule.

At least third Generation GPS only involves the politics of one single government.

Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  

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