The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots
Think hard about the ease with which the safety of air navigation can be invoked to justify just about anything, safe in the knowledge that scared punters are always going to scream to be saved from any pilot with any hint of any physical or mental problem
It's all called the "mystique of air safety", identified many years ago in the Lane Report, a a technique used by aviation bureaucrats to scare the living bejesus out of politicians, thereby justifying more/new/harsher "safety" regulation and more money.
The record must have been the day, during the Morris inquiry, when CASA produced 13 press releases (in one day) all calling for more money to solve non-existent air safety problems.
If you think Avmed is a problem, and Part 61 is an operational and financial disaster, you ain't seen nuttin' yet, wait till you see Parts 91/121/135. All the new restrictions simply ignore the Government policy on red rape reduction, and don't comply with the preamble to NPRMs, let alone the mandatory requirement of The Australian Government Guide to Regulation.
But ----- what are you all going to do about it?? Wait for "somebody else" to "do something"????
Tootle pip!!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't it more the point that CVD people have grown up with their condition and as such have adapted to what they see?
I deal with 2 youngsters with cochlear implants. I'm sure what they hear isn't the same as you an I hear.
What CVD's see is as normal to them as is what we see.
I deal with 2 youngsters with cochlear implants. I'm sure what they hear isn't the same as you an I hear.
What CVD's see is as normal to them as is what we see.
A recycled twist in the old mystique of aviation game
See if you can get the gentle hint in this story in today's Canberra Times
Phew! Bless the nation's air safety bureaucrats.
Oh no! If they don't get a pay rise, we're all gonna die because no one will be ensuring that aircraft around the country are airworthy! Please give our saviours a pay rise!
Back to CVD...
Hi Radix
Funny thing is that every non-CVD pilot that flys in the aircraft is confused and distracted by the red up and locked light. It's counter-intuitive (at least for some people).
And pilots with CVD spot and understand, just as quickly as pilots without CVD, the meaning of the illumination of light that means "up", and the meaning of the illumination of the light that means "down", and the meaning of neither light being illuminated.
Air Safety Staff set to join unrest...
The nation's air safety bureaucrats are set to join unrest sweeping the Commonwealth government ...
But unions representing staff at CASA say they will not compromise passenger safety ...
The nation's air safety bureaucrats are set to join unrest sweeping the Commonwealth government ...
But unions representing staff at CASA say they will not compromise passenger safety ...
[A union official] said his members at CASA were anxious not to cause disruption that might jeopardise passenger safety.
But the union official said the dispute might escalate if CASA's management did not make a pay offer soon.
"Members have looked at lower forms of action because they don't want to compromise their general duties, ensuring that aircraft around the country are airworthy," [the union official said]. "But if this is not resolved ...
But the union official said the dispute might escalate if CASA's management did not make a pay offer soon.
"Members have looked at lower forms of action because they don't want to compromise their general duties, ensuring that aircraft around the country are airworthy," [the union official said]. "But if this is not resolved ...
Back to CVD...
Hi Radix
Funny thing is that every non-CVD pilot that flys in the aircraft is confused and distracted by the red up and locked light. It's counter-intuitive (at least for some people).
And pilots with CVD spot and understand, just as quickly as pilots without CVD, the meaning of the illumination of light that means "up", and the meaning of the illumination of the light that means "down", and the meaning of neither light being illuminated.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 44
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE]CVD's can see colour and make safe pilots. They struggle with so called colour vision tests, which are far too discriminating and completely unrepresentative of any operational situation. The CAD test is no different in that it discriminates between those who can pass an irrelevant test and those who cannot. /QUOTE]
I can testify to the above.
Being diagnosed with CVD 20 years ago, I have a slight red/green deficiency but I 100% believe I see solid red/green colours (and lights) exactly the same as any colour normal person, but may have issues like finding it a little more difficult to distinguish a small green light from a white light at say 1000m (anyone probably would), yet red lights are very distinct.
In 20 years, with myself, family, friends and work/flying colleagues aware of the condition (I often get them to quiz me), I would struggle to count the instances I have misidentified a colour on one hand, yet I can't "pass" any of the colour vision tests, including the CAD, falling just outside the "acceptable" cutoff.
I have zero issues with road traffic lights, red/amber caution lights, green and red landing gear annunciations, nav lights, instrument placarding, runway (inc threshold, taxi and stop-bar lighting) , obstruction lighting and any fellow pilots can testify to this, yet I still "fail" the "required standard". It is absolutely frustrating.
Despite the above, let's not forget it has also been proven that pilots with severe defects who may not be great at naming colours can still operate aircraft safely!
I have an ATPL (which I can't use), 3000 hours (mostly multi IFR charter) and 500 hrs at night, without incident.
As someone deeply affected (and at times traumatised) by the stance CASA have taken in the last 2 years, a $5000 donation to the next fight would be within my realms at the current time, but obviously a career is worth much more than this amount. Hell, I've already blown over $1500 on two CAD tests
Thank you so much to those not affected by CVD willing to part with $200 for the cause, it means a huge amount to us CVDs to have your support!
p.s just as a side note and a bit of trivia: When you do the maths it works out that there would be around 1 million CVDs in Australia. Go figure
I can testify to the above.
Being diagnosed with CVD 20 years ago, I have a slight red/green deficiency but I 100% believe I see solid red/green colours (and lights) exactly the same as any colour normal person, but may have issues like finding it a little more difficult to distinguish a small green light from a white light at say 1000m (anyone probably would), yet red lights are very distinct.
In 20 years, with myself, family, friends and work/flying colleagues aware of the condition (I often get them to quiz me), I would struggle to count the instances I have misidentified a colour on one hand, yet I can't "pass" any of the colour vision tests, including the CAD, falling just outside the "acceptable" cutoff.
I have zero issues with road traffic lights, red/amber caution lights, green and red landing gear annunciations, nav lights, instrument placarding, runway (inc threshold, taxi and stop-bar lighting) , obstruction lighting and any fellow pilots can testify to this, yet I still "fail" the "required standard". It is absolutely frustrating.
Despite the above, let's not forget it has also been proven that pilots with severe defects who may not be great at naming colours can still operate aircraft safely!
I have an ATPL (which I can't use), 3000 hours (mostly multi IFR charter) and 500 hrs at night, without incident.
As someone deeply affected (and at times traumatised) by the stance CASA have taken in the last 2 years, a $5000 donation to the next fight would be within my realms at the current time, but obviously a career is worth much more than this amount. Hell, I've already blown over $1500 on two CAD tests
Thank you so much to those not affected by CVD willing to part with $200 for the cause, it means a huge amount to us CVDs to have your support!
p.s just as a side note and a bit of trivia: When you do the maths it works out that there would be around 1 million CVDs in Australia. Go figure
Last edited by CoftC; 9th Apr 2015 at 00:29.
Thread Starter
Thanks to all for your supportive and encouraging replies. For those who don't know, we have a legal entity called the Colour Vision Defective Pilots Association (CVDPA)which was set up primarily to act as a focal point for CVD pilots, would-be pilots and others who would want to support the cause. As an entity, we collected about $80,000 from all sources. However, the vast bulk of that has been spent supporting the legal fees for John O'Brien's appeal to the AAT. The money spent made it possible for John's appeal to even happen, and for the successful outcome to become a reality. John is now going ahead in leaps and bounds towards the dream of being an airline captain. While the outcome was a success, it isn't the end-point of the project, just a very big advance towards the ultimate goal. That goal is to end the immoral and unscientific discrimination against a particular group that has a trivial variance from what is considered "normal". In aiming for that goal, we seek to hold CASA accountable for its flawed logic, its misrepresentation of evidence and its flagrant disregard for the law of this country.
The fact that we can even try to achieve these goals is a great reflection on our legal system. In no other country in the world is there the opportunity available to challenge the blind bureaucracy that is behind the Aviation Colour Perception Standard (ACPS). We are unique in our access to independent and expert review of bureaucratic decisions, and that is the full explanation of why the Aussie version of the ACPS has led the world on the topic, at least until June 2014, when the "Empire" struck back.
Whatever money is or was raised, serves solely to finance legal challenges. No one takes any payments for services. There are small outgoings for accounting services and for court related witness expenses. I personally keep the records for the CVDPA, and those records are supervised by an independent accounting firm in Geelong. All financial records are available to subscribers upon request.
As discussed in an earlier post, our current target is to raise about $200,000 to enable the CVDPA to support a challenge to the lawfulness of the CAD test, under Australian law. It is vital that we raise the bulk of the money before we can engage lawyers to do the detailed preparation for taking this challenge to the Federal Court of Australia. If the appeal fails to reach its target, meaning the case can't go ahead, refunds will be made available to the original donors.
At the CVDPA website (www.cvdpa.com) individuals or groups can contribute by subscription or by donation and there are a number of means available to make the transactions happen.
You will understand that it is probably unwise to discuss legal strategies in detail in a forum such as this one, but very easily done through a subscription website such as the one the CVDPA has.
Keeping in mind what I have indicated earlier, the donation of $200 by only a thousand pilots would achieve our goal, but that doesn't confine any donor to that amount. All donations, large and small will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Arthur Pape
The fact that we can even try to achieve these goals is a great reflection on our legal system. In no other country in the world is there the opportunity available to challenge the blind bureaucracy that is behind the Aviation Colour Perception Standard (ACPS). We are unique in our access to independent and expert review of bureaucratic decisions, and that is the full explanation of why the Aussie version of the ACPS has led the world on the topic, at least until June 2014, when the "Empire" struck back.
Whatever money is or was raised, serves solely to finance legal challenges. No one takes any payments for services. There are small outgoings for accounting services and for court related witness expenses. I personally keep the records for the CVDPA, and those records are supervised by an independent accounting firm in Geelong. All financial records are available to subscribers upon request.
As discussed in an earlier post, our current target is to raise about $200,000 to enable the CVDPA to support a challenge to the lawfulness of the CAD test, under Australian law. It is vital that we raise the bulk of the money before we can engage lawyers to do the detailed preparation for taking this challenge to the Federal Court of Australia. If the appeal fails to reach its target, meaning the case can't go ahead, refunds will be made available to the original donors.
At the CVDPA website (www.cvdpa.com) individuals or groups can contribute by subscription or by donation and there are a number of means available to make the transactions happen.
You will understand that it is probably unwise to discuss legal strategies in detail in a forum such as this one, but very easily done through a subscription website such as the one the CVDPA has.
Keeping in mind what I have indicated earlier, the donation of $200 by only a thousand pilots would achieve our goal, but that doesn't confine any donor to that amount. All donations, large and small will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Arthur Pape
Wonder what CASA's response/reaction will be to this:
UW scientists, biotech firm may have cure for colorblindness | The Seattle Times
Source: HAI Rotor News April 15, 2015
UW scientists, biotech firm may have cure for colorblindness | The Seattle Times
Source: HAI Rotor News April 15, 2015
In my opinion all these work arounds are great, however it detracts from the core issue that flying with a CVD does not matter!
The empirical evidence shows, over the last 25 years in Australia, that CVD pilots operate to the same levels as their non CVD peers. It would seem that this is over a broad range of CVD's.
Tested over the years, the same as their colleagues, some have continued their careers to the highest levels in Airline transport.
A practical flight test or a test in the same simulator that is used for renewals is being avoided? Maybe this is because it may be subjective to who is conducting the test?
What any practical test should be looking for is can the applicant operate safely despite having a CVD?
It would show the argument, that colour is so critical, is redundant.
The empirical evidence shows, over the last 25 years in Australia, that CVD pilots operate to the same levels as their non CVD peers. It would seem that this is over a broad range of CVD's.
Tested over the years, the same as their colleagues, some have continued their careers to the highest levels in Airline transport.
A practical flight test or a test in the same simulator that is used for renewals is being avoided? Maybe this is because it may be subjective to who is conducting the test?
What any practical test should be looking for is can the applicant operate safely despite having a CVD?
It would show the argument, that colour is so critical, is redundant.
Gene therapy opens a new way
That doesn't mean someone should have to go through with it to get a restriction-free medical certificate.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Posts: 272
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It may have fallen a little silent on this thread but I know work is being done in the CVDPA on the next logical step in this fight. Any newbie who has failed the ishihara test in an Australian medical and is contemplating the next steps should contact the CVDPA before any further colour vision testing.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CASA Response to Senate Estimates QON
For those interested, CASA's response to Senator Fawcett's QON from the February Estimates hearings was released a few days ago:
Question no.: 170
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: Civil Aviation Safety Authority Topic: AAT Decision and Colour Vision Deficiency
Proof Hansard Page: 96 (24 February 2015)
PDF
Question no.: 170
Program: n/a
Division/Agency: Civil Aviation Safety Authority Topic: AAT Decision and Colour Vision Deficiency
Proof Hansard Page: 96 (24 February 2015)
Senator FAWCETT: Sure, I understand that. I will ask you to take this on notice as well. Since the committee last met with you in estimates, the AAT has handed down its decision in the case of Mr John O'Brien, with regard to colour vision deficiency. CASA lost that case. Mr O'Brien has been given the privileges of exercising the airline transport pilot licence on the basis that he has a safe flying history as a co-pilot and they do not anticipate any increase in risk to the travelling public or others with him exercising the privileges of being a captain. I would be interested in your answer, on notice, about how you plan to move forward with this issue, in that this is twice now that the AAT has found against the CASA position. The AAT's judgement recognises, during the very long period under Liddell and Brock and other principal medical officers within CASA, the very proactive and positive approach to enabling people to fly with appropriate individual assessments. I guess I would like you to, on notice, explain to the committee how you plan to respond to not just this judgement about Mr O'Brien as an individual but also the very clear statements that came out of the AAT around their concerns about the broad application of the CAD Test and the fact that, essentially, each individual should be given the opportunity to demonstrate their competence and safety, regardless of the clinical diagnosis of CVD that may be identified through various forms of testing.
Mr Skidmore: You quite correctly identified that we have only just received the response in regard to Mr O'Brien from the AAT. There is still time for us to appeal that response, and we will provide the information you requested in regard to that. But I would state that the AAT response was in regard to Mr O'Brien, and they did say it was in regard to Mr O'Brien only.
Answer:
CASA will be reviewing the implications of the individual judgement made by the Administrative Appeals Tribunal decision in relation to Mr O’Brien for its wider assessment of applicants for pilot licences with colour vision deficiency (CVD).
CASA notes the need for consistency in the safety assessment of pilot licence applications while recognising the different individual circumstances of each applicant with CVD and its potentially variable impact on their operating performance.
Mr Skidmore: You quite correctly identified that we have only just received the response in regard to Mr O'Brien from the AAT. There is still time for us to appeal that response, and we will provide the information you requested in regard to that. But I would state that the AAT response was in regard to Mr O'Brien, and they did say it was in regard to Mr O'Brien only.
Answer:
CASA will be reviewing the implications of the individual judgement made by the Administrative Appeals Tribunal decision in relation to Mr O’Brien for its wider assessment of applicants for pilot licences with colour vision deficiency (CVD).
CASA notes the need for consistency in the safety assessment of pilot licence applications while recognising the different individual circumstances of each applicant with CVD and its potentially variable impact on their operating performance.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Munich, DE
Age: 52
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can I fly in AUS?
FAA PPL, no restrictions, passed tower light test, have LOE (FAA Letter Of Evidence stating all restrictions removed despite Ishihara test failure, does not expire). Only FAA test left is OCVT (Operational Color Vision Test) which requires recognizing terrain types from an aircraft, which I need for the CPL.
So... would CASA throw a tantrum? Since I have an "alternative" profession (I grew up in Mexico, which DOES NOT let you fly with CVD, no matter what the FAA says, perhaps even because of the fact the FAA lets you fly with it) I've been considering a move to Oz in the near future, and depending on when I would get there, I would have a FAA CPL with me. Anz chances of cargo/RFD flying for me?
So... would CASA throw a tantrum? Since I have an "alternative" profession (I grew up in Mexico, which DOES NOT let you fly with CVD, no matter what the FAA says, perhaps even because of the fact the FAA lets you fly with it) I've been considering a move to Oz in the near future, and depending on when I would get there, I would have a FAA CPL with me. Anz chances of cargo/RFD flying for me?
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In a land down under
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone had a chance to look at this:
http://enchroma.com
Says on the FAQ that haven't been authorised by regulators but if corrective glasses can be worn then I don't see why these can't.
http://enchroma.com
Says on the FAQ that haven't been authorised by regulators but if corrective glasses can be worn then I don't see why these can't.
Thread Starter
CVDPA Announcement
CVDPA Announcement
There have been two significant meetings with the Director of CASA, Mr Mark Skidmore on the topic of the Aviation Colour Perception Standard (ACPS). The first was on June 22nd at Aviation House, Canberra, CASA headquarters. The second was in Queenstown, New Zealand where the CASA Director and his New Zealand counterpart, M Graeme Harris, met jointly with our affiliate group in New Zealand, Colour Vision Aviators (CVA) on June 29th. The CVDPA and the CVA are collaborating closely to fight the discrimination against CVD pilots, as you will see from the attached documentation.
As a result of these encounters with both directors, the CVDPA is left in no doubt that CASA’s act of total bastardry in June 2014 in its assault on CVD pilots will not be reversed in any way by the new director. Of paramount significance were the two points: (1) the CASA Director was shown a film clip of the CAD test and declared that to him the test does simulate an operational situation, and (2) the changes implemented by CASA in June 2014 were just a “clarification of the standard that was already there”. We witnessed what appeared to us to be open disdain and disregard for the AAT decisions and the rational choices of earlier principal medical officers (PMOs) that had placed Australia in a world leadership position in regard to aviation colour vision policy. We heard that the preference would be to be “fast followers” rather than “leaders”, and that the leaders would be ICAO.
The CVDPA has therefore, sadly, come to the conclusion that CASA’s claims of being a “risk based and evidence driven” regulator are mere rhetoric, and we are left with no practical alternative but to litigate in the Federal Court against the lawfulness of the CAD test. The CAD test lies at the heart of the above-said act of bastardry, and demonstrates the blind regulatory prejudice that colour vision defective pilots continue to suffer. Steps are being now taken to set the process in motion.
Documentation:
- Submission to CASA Director, Mr Mark Skidmore:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kxzmyvyx72d53bb/Submission%20to%20Mark%20Skidmore%20final.docx?dl=0
Our verbal presentation followed this document closely.
Supplementary material provided to the Director:
- A short film clip of an actual CAD test (my own, in fact) being performed:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8c5rmnonu3mr5l/CAD-small%20clip-no%20audio.mp4?dl=0 - A copy of the letter from CASA to CVD Pilots:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hawho75efc6fnnh/CASA%20to%20CVD%20Pilots%20-%20June%202014%20-%20Copy.pdf?dl=0
- A copy of the letter sent by CASA to AOC holders:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxwqgudhnd7lrtu/CVD%20Letter%20to%20AOC%20holders%20-%20Copy.pdf?dl=0
- A copy of the letter sent to Designated Aviation Medical Examiners (DAMEs) by the former PMO, Dr Pooshan Navathe:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/by27bzdavxllfl1/PMO%20letter%20to%20DAMEs.docx?dl=0
- A summary statement by Professor Stuart:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kx606flkf60ptsu/Geoff%20Stuart%20on%20Colour%20Vision%20Deficiency%20and%20A viation%20Safety%20-%20Copy.doc?dl=0
- A copy of a letter to the Editor of the Journal of the Australasian Society of Aerospace Medicine (JASAM)on the topic of the changes in the implementation of the Aviation Colour Perception Standard in June of 2014:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0lr0seira2nslyk/Pape%20Letter%20to%20Editor%20JASAM%202014.pdf?dl=0
- A copy of the paper by Pape and Crassini published in the JASAM concerning the Crash of Fedex Flight 1478, the central pillar of “evidence”of the pro-ACPS lobby:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ihin35ls74qv1x6/Pape%20and%20Crassini%202013%20The%20Puzzle.pdf?dl=0
- A copy of the Pape and Crassini paper of 2011 about the implications of the ACPS
https://www.dropbox.com/s/st7t3sgsgh3lte8/Pape%20and%20Crassini%20JASAM%202011%20final.pdf?dl=0
- A review of the CAD test by CVA NZ
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qbrawdno1fgbu00/GD-VIS-1-2013%20CAD%20Test%20Review.pdf?dl=0
- Submission to NZ CAA on what the CVDPA and NZ CVA consider to be fraudulent/unethical material generated by the NZ PMO
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ejn7taaew9dl9k1/GD-VIS-1-2013%20PMO%20Review.pdf?dl=0
- Copy of article by NZ PMO on which the CASA June 2014 changes relied
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0vl5cad75ltmire/Watson%20DB%20ASEM%20201402%20ASEM.pdf?dl=0
- Copy of letter from Pape to Dr Drane
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9uvaxidrn3235r5/pape%20to%20drane%2020150327%20-%20Copy.docx?dl=0
The only material I have left out is the Case Study documentation given at the meeting in Canberra that includes the personal details of brave CVD pilots who agreed to be a part of our case presentations to CASA, detailing their names, ranks and experience as well as their CVD categories.
Finally, if anyone considers this to be a matter of interest only to pilots or potential pilots with colour vision deficiency, please think again. This matter is merely one manifestation of a broader failure of CASA to take a risk based and evidence driven approach to medical certification and aviation regulation generally. Please do not sit on the sidelines and watch other people fight the fights to try to fix problems that may well be yours one day, if not already.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Finally, if anyone considers this to be a matter of interest only to pilots or potential pilots with colour vision deficiency, please think again. This matter is merely one manifestation of a broader failure of CASA to take a risk based and evidence driven approach to medical certification and aviation regulation generally. Please do not sit on the sidelines and watch other people fight the fights to try to fix problems that may well be yours one day, if not already.
Whilst I am not CVD, I take a lot of interest in this thread on how CASA is dealing with the whole lot, and how the judiciary reacts.
Today it is CVD, tomorrow..........? just look at your medical questionaire!
Yes we all know what to tick and what not to...but it should not be that way!!
The whole premise of operation is driving problems underground...sure its bad for the CASA medical team, being lied to, but its also driving people to give no answers that a normal GP would say, " I think we should look at that further" They are forcing people to deny problems they have, which in most cases could be easily sorted.
Skidmark earns more than the PM, time he earn't it
