Who represents GA to government in Australia?
Thorn Bird, further to your comment:
Who speaks for GA in NZ (as they appear to be world trendsetters in GA reform)? Who speaks for GA in China, if their GA is really starting to kick off?
Who does the lobbying in the background? Or do they just have pollies with some nous?
Who speaks for GA in NZ (as they appear to be world trendsetters in GA reform)? Who speaks for GA in China, if their GA is really starting to kick off?
Who does the lobbying in the background? Or do they just have pollies with some nous?
Another area of non- representation not yet mentioned here is the impact of aviation security legislation on GA. Airports, airlines etc all have strong representation and input but never a peep from GA.
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Out and about,
I have no idea who represents the industry in those countries.
Perhaps their political masters recognize that industry in any form, no matter how fragile, is a good thing because it employs people, services community needs and promotes other unrelated commerce which does the same thing.
I hardly think killing off an industry through ignorance, corruptly regulating it out of existence is in the "National interest".
There has been a lot of discussion as to what the catalyst was that send NZ on their reform project, but I don't think there are many who could not say they did it very well, a few years, a few million $ as apposed to hundreds of Millions and a quarter of a century.
Their industry is now reaping the benefits, while Australia languishes in splendid isolation, that big rock at the end of the network that everyone shrugs their shoulders and rolls their eye's about.
Very soon we will be sticking out like a sore thumb, the odd man out in the Pacific and Asia because all the rest of the world is wrong we are right.
I have no idea who represents the industry in those countries.
Perhaps their political masters recognize that industry in any form, no matter how fragile, is a good thing because it employs people, services community needs and promotes other unrelated commerce which does the same thing.
I hardly think killing off an industry through ignorance, corruptly regulating it out of existence is in the "National interest".
There has been a lot of discussion as to what the catalyst was that send NZ on their reform project, but I don't think there are many who could not say they did it very well, a few years, a few million $ as apposed to hundreds of Millions and a quarter of a century.
Their industry is now reaping the benefits, while Australia languishes in splendid isolation, that big rock at the end of the network that everyone shrugs their shoulders and rolls their eye's about.
Very soon we will be sticking out like a sore thumb, the odd man out in the Pacific and Asia because all the rest of the world is wrong we are right.
Thread Starter
OK so some areas where a GA professional body/lobby group IS required (excuse those terms or acronyms which are obsolete but you will know what I mean):
- CASA regulatory reform- review & feedback
- CASA malpractice/injustice/complaints/dispute resolution
- DOTARS security & ASICs
- GAAP Aerodrome operator malpractice/injustice/complaints/dispute resolution
- Representation to government on policy direction;
- ATO professional standards liability limitation scheme
- Education to industry on those things CASA are doing that are not a bad thing, or a good thing, or not as bad as they seem (because CASA is consistently demonstrating that they can't do their own job)
All of the above would require significant and visible backing from the industry.
Does the RAAA or AOPA act for GA on any of the above? Has the RAAA or AOPA made any submissions on Part 61, or Part 141, or Part 142?
Who would help set up a new squeaky wheel for GA?
- CASA regulatory reform- review & feedback
- CASA malpractice/injustice/complaints/dispute resolution
- DOTARS security & ASICs
- GAAP Aerodrome operator malpractice/injustice/complaints/dispute resolution
- Representation to government on policy direction;
- ATO professional standards liability limitation scheme
- Education to industry on those things CASA are doing that are not a bad thing, or a good thing, or not as bad as they seem (because CASA is consistently demonstrating that they can't do their own job)
All of the above would require significant and visible backing from the industry.
Does the RAAA or AOPA act for GA on any of the above? Has the RAAA or AOPA made any submissions on Part 61, or Part 141, or Part 142?
Who would help set up a new squeaky wheel for GA?
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On the topic of politicians with possible aviation interests, I just noticed Clive Palmer's jet (M-ATAR) isn't on the VH register.
Regardless of what you might otherwise think of him, perhaps he has some sort of beef with CASA?
Regardless of what you might otherwise think of him, perhaps he has some sort of beef with CASA?
Last edited by bankrunner; 1st Nov 2013 at 02:33.
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AUD $00.20
This is one of those posts I know I'll regret; but there is a gentle zephyr of change wafting through the corridors of power; thus encouraged:-
Dear Horatio, I do admire that you want to 'do': to try and make things better; I really do. But the collective 'group' vehicle is beyond all repair. The vehicle has been repaired, only to be broken so often now that it's beyond practical redemption. (No, Minnie, it will not just buff out).
Australian GA is too small, diverse, selfish and fractured to ever gain serious traction, despite many repeated group 'best' efforts, going back as far the Wright boys. GA has only done well where there is a regulator with insight, knowledge, understanding with a minister supporting, at the moment, we have neither. Have a look at where the 'reformation' process was heading before Albo was conned into believing; the 2007 recommendations are almost identical to the recent Senate findings. Passing strange that it should be retrieved now, under FOI; someone is working hard behind the scenes, using the FOI act and preparing for 'awkward' questions. See here.... and where brother SARCS has nailed it down.. here.
I believe the commission of inquiry is needed -(as promised), the appointment of a junior minister with the balls to use a large, sharp knife and the vitals of a few assorted sociopaths and psychopaths in a bucket, hung high, for all to see. Then if we get lucky, really lucky, we may get a DAS who knows how to do the job properly (e.g. M. Smith Esq. if available, or a look alike). Then watch, the culture of fear will vanish – overnight, the mantra of 'blood on your hands' will disappear like mist and the rule of the pedants, the inutile and the dubious will be over..
A decent DAS will root out for the law to punish, those who hide behind their perceived autocracy. A new DAS and a couple of lost houses will curb the cowardly pack. This would allow the 'good eggs', to get on with administering a small, diverse group of aviators with an even, practical hand. Targeting enhanced safety, job security and operational knowledge through working with industry, rather using it as personal piggy bank and/or whipping boy.
Perhaps there's more to gained by researching who would make a great DAS, nominating that person and reminding Mr. Truss of the promises made and his obligation to keep them....(lest he forget)..
Selah.
Dear Horatio, I do admire that you want to 'do': to try and make things better; I really do. But the collective 'group' vehicle is beyond all repair. The vehicle has been repaired, only to be broken so often now that it's beyond practical redemption. (No, Minnie, it will not just buff out).
Australian GA is too small, diverse, selfish and fractured to ever gain serious traction, despite many repeated group 'best' efforts, going back as far the Wright boys. GA has only done well where there is a regulator with insight, knowledge, understanding with a minister supporting, at the moment, we have neither. Have a look at where the 'reformation' process was heading before Albo was conned into believing; the 2007 recommendations are almost identical to the recent Senate findings. Passing strange that it should be retrieved now, under FOI; someone is working hard behind the scenes, using the FOI act and preparing for 'awkward' questions. See here.... and where brother SARCS has nailed it down.. here.
I believe the commission of inquiry is needed -(as promised), the appointment of a junior minister with the balls to use a large, sharp knife and the vitals of a few assorted sociopaths and psychopaths in a bucket, hung high, for all to see. Then if we get lucky, really lucky, we may get a DAS who knows how to do the job properly (e.g. M. Smith Esq. if available, or a look alike). Then watch, the culture of fear will vanish – overnight, the mantra of 'blood on your hands' will disappear like mist and the rule of the pedants, the inutile and the dubious will be over..
A decent DAS will root out for the law to punish, those who hide behind their perceived autocracy. A new DAS and a couple of lost houses will curb the cowardly pack. This would allow the 'good eggs', to get on with administering a small, diverse group of aviators with an even, practical hand. Targeting enhanced safety, job security and operational knowledge through working with industry, rather using it as personal piggy bank and/or whipping boy.
Perhaps there's more to gained by researching who would make a great DAS, nominating that person and reminding Mr. Truss of the promises made and his obligation to keep them....(lest he forget)..
Selah.
Last edited by Kharon; 1st Nov 2013 at 03:00. Reason: Money well spent.
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The words "Foster and Encourage" should be included in any mission statement by any real Regulator who has GA portfolio. This as opposed to "ruin and destroy" as is now the case. A few simple words put up by a willing MP as a Private members Bill" would achieve much I believe.
I can't hurt.
I can't hurt.
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"On the topic of politicians with possible aviation interests, I just noticed Clive Palmer's jet (M-ATAR) isn't on the VH register."
Bankie, Clive's just being smart, if he's only using his aircraft privately why would he want to pay three times as much to maintain it if it was on the Australian register? Also much easier to sell overseas when he wants to upgrade, Australian reg's are not recognized elsewhere so selling an aircraft that's been maintained here becomes a nightmare and severely reduces its sale price. Get used to it the wealthy will more and more choose foreign registration as happened in Europe and the UK.
Bankie, Clive's just being smart, if he's only using his aircraft privately why would he want to pay three times as much to maintain it if it was on the Australian register? Also much easier to sell overseas when he wants to upgrade, Australian reg's are not recognized elsewhere so selling an aircraft that's been maintained here becomes a nightmare and severely reduces its sale price. Get used to it the wealthy will more and more choose foreign registration as happened in Europe and the UK.
Last edited by thorn bird; 1st Nov 2013 at 05:32.
Thread Starter
I thought Clive's aircraft was VP-CFP? (might be one of a few?)
Aparrently the F stands for "Frederick" but I admit it wasn't the first thing that came to mind
Aparrently the F stands for "Frederick" but I admit it wasn't the first thing that came to mind
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Originally Posted by thorn bird
Bankie, Clive's just being smart, if he's only using his aircraft privately why would he want to pay three times as much to maintain it if it was on the Australian register? Also much easier to sell overseas when he wants to upgrade, Australian reg's are not recognized elsewhere so selling an aircraft that's been maintained here becomes a nightmare and severely reduces its sale price. Get used to it the wealthy will more and more choose foreign registration as happened in Europe and the UK.
Either Clive himself has dealt with CASA and found out what a crock of **** CASA's regs are, or whoever works for him who manages his aircraft has, and probably told the big man about it.
Either way, it might be worth dropping him a line and pointing out that this symptomatic of the general state of affairs for aviation in Australia? Given he's got a direct interest in it it mightn't hurt, and he might even be up for some ****stirring over it in Cantberra
Last edited by bankrunner; 1st Nov 2013 at 07:11.
Frank my point was AOPA was respected before the involvement of the said individual, it effectively started its decline due to the campaign run at the time.
Why so coy about names?
AOPA was "respected" before Dick and Boyd breathed some new life into a moribund operation???
AOPA was "respected" then, as it is now, by the bureaucracy, because it then and now, represents no threat to the quiet life for our army of bureaucrats.
Tootle pip!!
Regardless of what you might otherwise think of him, perhaps he has some sort of beef with CASA?
I remember, some years ago, a member of the CAA/CASA board was the Chief Engineer for Kerry Packer's fleet of aircraft, up to and including a DC-8-50 --- none of them on the Australian register.
Tootle pip!!
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Hi #*+£
Thanks for the advice. However, your mentor has not advised you wisely.
His mentor told him to tell this prick to jamb it, but read on to get the picture
While you may have your Commercial pilot licence, we (as your first employer) now have to spend countless hours getting you up to commercial standard before we can clear you to line on any of our ops. Your training organization does not achieve this. Even CASA is aware of this problem but doesn’t know how to overcome it. So, we bear the brunt. The $2000 bond is simply to give us piece of mind that you will be committed while we work through this process. It is fully refundable after completion. You have just spent $20,000 on a MEIR which is not going to help you whatsoever with your first job but you are quibbling over small financial issues? Your flying school are probably telling you what you want to hear because you are paying them! Reality is that if you want to get paid for flying, you have to be able to fly commercially and safely. You will not be at that standard. I takes us 12 months to get a pilot up to standard and cleared to line on all of our operations. Flying around the country having a bit of a wally is very different to flying commercial ops.
This is not about the money. It is about you getting your first position into aviation, gaining valuable experience and hours, then moving on to the next step. We have employed more than 50 pilots over the years and many have remained close friends. Most are now Captains with Cathay / Virgin / Qantas / Jetstar etc.
We receive countless applications from young pilots seeking their first job in the industry and the reason that I am blunt in the initial interview stages is to ensure that we only consider those applicants who are truly committed and focused. By the way, some of our pilots are being paid over the award and they deserve it. If you do truly want to get some real experience and a start in the industry then you will need a different attitude. We know of quite a few young pilots who applied with us several years ago (with a similar attitude) who are still not working in the aviation industry.
We wish you good luck with your aviation career.
Regards
#*+*^ (this turd was offering the above applicant $100 a day as a CPL in Commercial ops)
Thanks for your time *^%#+
But after consulting some mentors, I'm not prepared to accept the role under the conditions. This being paying a bond and working for under the award rate.
Bravo young man, and to whomever his mentors are! Problem is there'll 50 others crawling all over this.
And you lot wonder what is wrong with this turd of an industry?
As one of my better mates comments, part of the problem are the smug bastards sitting in the cockpits of 737's & 320's who accepted this garbage in the first place. Kids get killed in piece of **** chieftains but, I'm alright jack in my Multi-crew cockpit.
Thanks for the advice. However, your mentor has not advised you wisely.
His mentor told him to tell this prick to jamb it, but read on to get the picture
While you may have your Commercial pilot licence, we (as your first employer) now have to spend countless hours getting you up to commercial standard before we can clear you to line on any of our ops. Your training organization does not achieve this. Even CASA is aware of this problem but doesn’t know how to overcome it. So, we bear the brunt. The $2000 bond is simply to give us piece of mind that you will be committed while we work through this process. It is fully refundable after completion. You have just spent $20,000 on a MEIR which is not going to help you whatsoever with your first job but you are quibbling over small financial issues? Your flying school are probably telling you what you want to hear because you are paying them! Reality is that if you want to get paid for flying, you have to be able to fly commercially and safely. You will not be at that standard. I takes us 12 months to get a pilot up to standard and cleared to line on all of our operations. Flying around the country having a bit of a wally is very different to flying commercial ops.
This is not about the money. It is about you getting your first position into aviation, gaining valuable experience and hours, then moving on to the next step. We have employed more than 50 pilots over the years and many have remained close friends. Most are now Captains with Cathay / Virgin / Qantas / Jetstar etc.
We receive countless applications from young pilots seeking their first job in the industry and the reason that I am blunt in the initial interview stages is to ensure that we only consider those applicants who are truly committed and focused. By the way, some of our pilots are being paid over the award and they deserve it. If you do truly want to get some real experience and a start in the industry then you will need a different attitude. We know of quite a few young pilots who applied with us several years ago (with a similar attitude) who are still not working in the aviation industry.
We wish you good luck with your aviation career.
Regards
#*+*^ (this turd was offering the above applicant $100 a day as a CPL in Commercial ops)
Thanks for your time *^%#+
But after consulting some mentors, I'm not prepared to accept the role under the conditions. This being paying a bond and working for under the award rate.
Bravo young man, and to whomever his mentors are! Problem is there'll 50 others crawling all over this.
And you lot wonder what is wrong with this turd of an industry?
As one of my better mates comments, part of the problem are the smug bastards sitting in the cockpits of 737's & 320's who accepted this garbage in the first place. Kids get killed in piece of **** chieftains but, I'm alright jack in my Multi-crew cockpit.
Thread Starter
There is no room for bad manners mate and I think a lot of what is branded "racist" and "sexist" these days is just bad manners in the wrong setting. The tone of the Email you appear to be quoting is pretty poor we would all agree - however you have not supplied us with the letter or email that prompted it.
There are arseholes in every industry. But that is not the point of this thread.
There are arseholes in every industry. But that is not the point of this thread.
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That email was in reply to a job applicant. The applicant was querying why he had to pay a bond to work for said 'prick'. There were no endorsements involved to prompt a bond. The prick had not done a check flight with the job applicant so one would wonder how the prick could come to the conclusion that the job applicant's skills were deficient. And if they were deficient, don't hire the applicant.
The prick is well known in the industry yet he continues to get away with these practices. The reason I posted this in your thread, who represents GA, is that a great part of GA is a sewer. The people that have the power to change GA couldn't give a toss because they are out of it now.
Who represents GA? Start at the top of this garbage industry, treat the people who work it and make you your money with a bit of respect & then get your representation sorted.
The email I reproduced is without alteration.
Rascist, sexist........you lost me I'm afraid?
They are not my manners, I'll give you the name & address of who wrote it if you like? You can ring him and ask him why he pays his pilots $100 a day & charges a $2000 bond for the privilege of working for him.
The prick is well known in the industry yet he continues to get away with these practices. The reason I posted this in your thread, who represents GA, is that a great part of GA is a sewer. The people that have the power to change GA couldn't give a toss because they are out of it now.
Who represents GA? Start at the top of this garbage industry, treat the people who work it and make you your money with a bit of respect & then get your representation sorted.
The email I reproduced is without alteration.
Rascist, sexist........you lost me I'm afraid?
They are not my manners, I'll give you the name & address of who wrote it if you like? You can ring him and ask him why he pays his pilots $100 a day & charges a $2000 bond for the privilege of working for him.
Thread Starter
Just saying the author was exhibiting bad manners, and a lot of people seem to feel free to do that without a second thought. Hence, some of the statements we see around the place that might have been meant as a joke but were just bad manners and in poor taste, and labelled as racist or sexist. But they were just in poor taste.
I get what you're saying about the industry. Its depressing.
I get what you're saying about the industry. Its depressing.
Thread Starter
I know a Chieftain type operator who pays well (all full time salary and about $60k for 4 days/wk) and he is rewarded by an awesome and loyal team.
...the problem comes from the competition using casual pilots who have an "off farm" income so they don't need to earn flying income 5 days/week.
I have heard of Bongo pilots being paid $135/day on Horn, as contractors (ie: deduct your tax and super from that!)
I have heard stories of Chieftain drivers in Brisbane earning $35k.
How do the good operators survive in hard times? How do they maintain high operating standards and high levels of training when the competition continue the race to bottom on every front?
...Mate it IS worth saving, and some of the new rules will clean out the bottom feeders. But we have to ensure the proverbial baby isn't thrown out with the regulatory bathwater.
CHeers
...the problem comes from the competition using casual pilots who have an "off farm" income so they don't need to earn flying income 5 days/week.
I have heard of Bongo pilots being paid $135/day on Horn, as contractors (ie: deduct your tax and super from that!)
I have heard stories of Chieftain drivers in Brisbane earning $35k.
How do the good operators survive in hard times? How do they maintain high operating standards and high levels of training when the competition continue the race to bottom on every front?
...Mate it IS worth saving, and some of the new rules will clean out the bottom feeders. But we have to ensure the proverbial baby isn't thrown out with the regulatory bathwater.
CHeers
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HLB #39 –"..Mate it IS worth saving, and some of the new rules will clean out the bottom feeders. But we have to ensure the proverbial baby isn't thrown out with the regulatory bathwater."