Fire Bombers
Griffo, I wouldn't take my words too much out of context. Yes the c130 was effective (in comparison to the dc10 on that particular day), that being said it was a Coulson modified c130 with drivers that do firefighting as their bread and butter, not a secondary task.
With that in mind, I didn't say the heavies were the answer, nor do they save the day, it's just another tool that certainly complements the rest of the firefighting fleet contracted by NAFC.
With that in mind, I didn't say the heavies were the answer, nor do they save the day, it's just another tool that certainly complements the rest of the firefighting fleet contracted by NAFC.
Understood Mr H,
However, we do have those aircraft here in Australia, even the 'older ones', and with 'suitable training' surely our RAAF qualified pilots could provide some 'good effect'?
My suggestion does not involve converting the aircraft to water tanker types, as in the Coulson types.
This would be a very expensive mod. and would make that / those airframes 'specialist' airframes.
Rather, the dropping of large water / retardant 'balloon packages' out the back onto the leading edge hotspots is what I had in mind.
The 'balloons' could be designed to simply drop all the way and to burst their contents onto to the ground (Grass fire front), or, with the use of a light wire cable around the plastic balloon, to break open and spray the contents....
OK I'll go and get a coffee....
Cheers
However, we do have those aircraft here in Australia, even the 'older ones', and with 'suitable training' surely our RAAF qualified pilots could provide some 'good effect'?
My suggestion does not involve converting the aircraft to water tanker types, as in the Coulson types.
This would be a very expensive mod. and would make that / those airframes 'specialist' airframes.
Rather, the dropping of large water / retardant 'balloon packages' out the back onto the leading edge hotspots is what I had in mind.
The 'balloons' could be designed to simply drop all the way and to burst their contents onto to the ground (Grass fire front), or, with the use of a light wire cable around the plastic balloon, to break open and spray the contents....
OK I'll go and get a coffee....
Cheers
Griffo, good thoughts but it the bladder idea you suggest would most likely be ineffective not to mention extremely dangerous to the crews on the ground.
Why would NAFC and other organisations want to spend millions on your above suggestion which doesn't provide a drop pattern anywhere near what they want or expect for their money.
The second point to think about is having another govt organisation run and maintain aircraft is just another branch that requires it's own admin teams, management, oversight etc with all the inefficiencies that go with it. Not to mention the fact that they really have no KPI's to answer to with aircraft U/S's, lack of crewing etc etc
If you want more C130's et al, just lobby for more funding to go into NAFC's bucket and they will put on more contract machines fit for purpose and crewed by the guys/gals that do it day in day out. No point re-inventing the wheel and coming up with a half baked solution at greater cost, as we tend to regularly as Aussies (thinking we know better than everyone else).
Rather, the dropping of large water / retardant 'balloon packages' out the back onto the leading edge hotspots is what I had in mind.
The 'balloons' could be designed to simply drop all the way and to burst their contents onto to the ground (Grass fire front), or, with the use of a light wire cable around the plastic balloon, to break open and spray the contents....
The 'balloons' could be designed to simply drop all the way and to burst their contents onto to the ground (Grass fire front), or, with the use of a light wire cable around the plastic balloon, to break open and spray the contents....
The second point to think about is having another govt organisation run and maintain aircraft is just another branch that requires it's own admin teams, management, oversight etc with all the inefficiencies that go with it. Not to mention the fact that they really have no KPI's to answer to with aircraft U/S's, lack of crewing etc etc
If you want more C130's et al, just lobby for more funding to go into NAFC's bucket and they will put on more contract machines fit for purpose and crewed by the guys/gals that do it day in day out. No point re-inventing the wheel and coming up with a half baked solution at greater cost, as we tend to regularly as Aussies (thinking we know better than everyone else).
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Griffo -
MAFFS - modular airborne fire fighting system was tested '81 - '83 care of RAAF 36 Sqn in a C130.
It was found to be relatively costly and the amount carried was frequently offset by lengthy turnaround times; offering no advantage over agricultural aircraft pressed into service at that time.
Forest Commission Victoria was responsible for the evaluation.
MAFFS - modular airborne fire fighting system was tested '81 - '83 care of RAAF 36 Sqn in a C130.
It was found to be relatively costly and the amount carried was frequently offset by lengthy turnaround times; offering no advantage over agricultural aircraft pressed into service at that time.
Forest Commission Victoria was responsible for the evaluation.
Thanks Guys .....
The Pre filled balloons already on plastic pallets (Available) might make the turnaround times better.
Pre arranged pallets would be loaded in a few minutes, engines running.....
And the dropping would be on the fire front - no ground personnel in there.....
Anyway, t'was worth floating the idea for a 'try'.... See Yas
Cheers
The Pre filled balloons already on plastic pallets (Available) might make the turnaround times better.
Pre arranged pallets would be loaded in a few minutes, engines running.....
And the dropping would be on the fire front - no ground personnel in there.....
Anyway, t'was worth floating the idea for a 'try'.... See Yas
Cheers
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Binghi,
Spot on. I couldn't agree more.
The conducting of regular off-season burn-offs to reduce critical ground fuel levels is a well-understood science.
To all except to latte-sipping greenies and 'sensitive' politicians, that is.
In my time with Parks & Wildlife, the number of properly assessed burn-off recommendations that were rejected
for political reasons caused much despair and loss of morale - particularly when you've then got to go out and fight the fires
which could have been prevented or at least, mitigated.
Currawong,
The MAFFS trials findings were described by some as 'controversial' and budgetary-related, rather than the lack of effectiveness
when the teams were fully worked-up.
Spot on. I couldn't agree more.
The conducting of regular off-season burn-offs to reduce critical ground fuel levels is a well-understood science.
To all except to latte-sipping greenies and 'sensitive' politicians, that is.
In my time with Parks & Wildlife, the number of properly assessed burn-off recommendations that were rejected
for political reasons caused much despair and loss of morale - particularly when you've then got to go out and fight the fires
which could have been prevented or at least, mitigated.
Currawong,
The MAFFS trials findings were described by some as 'controversial' and budgetary-related, rather than the lack of effectiveness
when the teams were fully worked-up.
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Stanwell -
yes operating costs were factored in as part of the trial.
The subsequent '83 - '84 - '85 CSIRO trial results may be of interest.
Or tainted with controversy too I suppose.
yes operating costs were factored in as part of the trial.
The subsequent '83 - '84 - '85 CSIRO trial results may be of interest.
Or tainted with controversy too I suppose.
Otaways interim report released:
"...the fire which caused so much damage originated from the lightning strike, not the back-burning.
...burn-out strategy was the best option available to fire crews at the time.
...impacts on Wye River and Separation Creek townships would likely have been far worse than was suffered had the fuel load between the main fire front and Jameison Track not been significantly reduced prior to the spot fire occurring...
...a stronger aerial attack on the fire when it originally started "would have likely had very little impact" because of the dense cover of forest in the Otway Ranges.
Otway Ranges: Dry, difficult fire terrain
And likely the real reason for the dificult fire...
...Otway Ranges ... had not burnt in a major way since 1983...
There are other veiws:
"...Clearly this is an attempt to prevent the coroner looking at the real issues.
...believed more could have been done to attack the fire when it was ignited, with the use of more aerial bombing and repelling crews."
Wye River bushfire: Impact would have been 'far worse' without back-burning, report finds - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
.
"...the fire which caused so much damage originated from the lightning strike, not the back-burning.
...burn-out strategy was the best option available to fire crews at the time.
...impacts on Wye River and Separation Creek townships would likely have been far worse than was suffered had the fuel load between the main fire front and Jameison Track not been significantly reduced prior to the spot fire occurring...
...a stronger aerial attack on the fire when it originally started "would have likely had very little impact" because of the dense cover of forest in the Otway Ranges.
Otway Ranges: Dry, difficult fire terrain
And likely the real reason for the dificult fire...
...Otway Ranges ... had not burnt in a major way since 1983...
There are other veiws:
"...Clearly this is an attempt to prevent the coroner looking at the real issues.
...believed more could have been done to attack the fire when it was ignited, with the use of more aerial bombing and repelling crews."
Wye River bushfire: Impact would have been 'far worse' without back-burning, report finds - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
.
Elvis may be about to leave the building
Aviation firm stuggles to stay aloft | The Columbian
After several years of spending summers down under, Elvis may face an uncertain future. Rather odd that only a couple of days earlier they gained a contract extension in Australia.
RSS Content | Investor Relations | Erickson Aircrane
After several years of spending summers down under, Elvis may face an uncertain future. Rather odd that only a couple of days earlier they gained a contract extension in Australia.
RSS Content | Investor Relations | Erickson Aircrane
