Fire Bombers
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currawong
I suspect that reason equipment is rotated to/from the northern hemisphere is because its good equipment but when it is used there it is part of a fleet of much larger equipment in physical size, aircaft mix and fleet size.
1 helo and a bucket was useless on the initail attack at Springwood. 50 helos may have been better. 4 or 5 CV580s/L188s or Bae146s may have stopped it when it was just a grass fire.
The Lithgow fire had no initial attack as it was in an explosive danger area. 4 or 5 CV580s/L188s/Bae146s may have stopped it in its tracks too.
I said in an earlier thread I had a long conversationm about this subject only a few weeks ago with a very senior RFS person. His is excuse for not using large aircraft was very clear, lack of water. In all the recent fire disasters around Sydney, Newcastle and the Highlands there were plenty of sources of water so his excuse "doesn't hold water".Maybe that is part of the problem that the RFS has a one size fits all aproach?
Wunwing
I suspect that reason equipment is rotated to/from the northern hemisphere is because its good equipment but when it is used there it is part of a fleet of much larger equipment in physical size, aircaft mix and fleet size.
1 helo and a bucket was useless on the initail attack at Springwood. 50 helos may have been better. 4 or 5 CV580s/L188s or Bae146s may have stopped it when it was just a grass fire.
The Lithgow fire had no initial attack as it was in an explosive danger area. 4 or 5 CV580s/L188s/Bae146s may have stopped it in its tracks too.
I said in an earlier thread I had a long conversationm about this subject only a few weeks ago with a very senior RFS person. His is excuse for not using large aircraft was very clear, lack of water. In all the recent fire disasters around Sydney, Newcastle and the Highlands there were plenty of sources of water so his excuse "doesn't hold water".Maybe that is part of the problem that the RFS has a one size fits all aproach?
Wunwing
Last edited by Wunwing; 13th Nov 2013 at 20:11.
I am only a casual observer but the 802s based here never seem to move until it's 30+ deg C, blowing 30 knots, and there is a plume of smoke into the FLs.
More than one SEAT pilot has commented to me that it would make more sense to have a crack first thing in the morning before everything turns to sh
t and it's like pissing on a blast furnace. 
Its OK - the guys at the SAD know what they're doing.
More than one SEAT pilot has commented to me that it would make more sense to have a crack first thing in the morning before everything turns to sh
t and it's like pissing on a blast furnace. Its OK - the guys at the SAD know what they're doing.
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All these elements that have been mentioned by horatio and currawong are exactly the point. These same problems of, lack of inital attack, adequate response size and working the fire at times when the conditions are in your favour. (ie crack of dawn the cool mornings when the humidity is at its best and the wind still at its lowest..) Are spread right across this country.
But no mater what state you are in, proposals to take the fight to the fire in such a manner at that time of the day are definately off the table.
We all know that the boys from the state air desk frequently pick through pprune looking for the little tidbits and gossip that inevitably pop up. Can you blame them really, locked up in an office all day, I'd do the same.
What I am getting to is, would it not be good to hear from some of these guys. The ones who fire the shots, book the planes, make the decisions, form the tactics. Just to hear from them to maby explain some of their decision processes, or considerations or even their thoughts on the current air attack policies. Maby even let us know where it is that these ideas of aerial attack are going wrong.
But no mater what state you are in, proposals to take the fight to the fire in such a manner at that time of the day are definately off the table.
We all know that the boys from the state air desk frequently pick through pprune looking for the little tidbits and gossip that inevitably pop up. Can you blame them really, locked up in an office all day, I'd do the same.
What I am getting to is, would it not be good to hear from some of these guys. The ones who fire the shots, book the planes, make the decisions, form the tactics. Just to hear from them to maby explain some of their decision processes, or considerations or even their thoughts on the current air attack policies. Maby even let us know where it is that these ideas of aerial attack are going wrong.
Zero chance of a public servant doing that, much less from someone involved in something as dramatic, emotive and "heroic" as fighting bushfires. From Homebush.
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I couldn't help but chime in here about the tactics for SA.
The other day here in Adelaide it was around 23, hardly 'severe bushfire' conditions. Sitting watching the CFS paging feed I noticed a small fire break out in scrub-land up north, and not even after 30 minutes they had already tasked 2 AT's and a rotary. Not even 20 minutes later they had already called them off as the threat had been mitigated, not a single drop of water bombed (to the best of my knowledge). Seems like hitting hard and hitting early is the approach they are taking over here, seems to be working as well!
The other day here in Adelaide it was around 23, hardly 'severe bushfire' conditions. Sitting watching the CFS paging feed I noticed a small fire break out in scrub-land up north, and not even after 30 minutes they had already tasked 2 AT's and a rotary. Not even 20 minutes later they had already called them off as the threat had been mitigated, not a single drop of water bombed (to the best of my knowledge). Seems like hitting hard and hitting early is the approach they are taking over here, seems to be working as well!
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Philkensebben, I have read about that kind of a responce being issued in sa many years ago, I thought it no longer occurred.
There is an article on the web somewhere, written a few years I'm unsure of its name and location. ( title is something like "flying in formation").
Written by someone in the sa cfa or rural fire department, about air attack in the mount lofty ranges, It outlined how effective initial air attack was , to the point of senior cfa members complaining that junior ground crew were not getting enough experience in fighting big fires. Due to the fires being suppressed from the start by air attack.
May sound like a load of crap to some.
But I bet someone out there knows where this document is.
There is an article on the web somewhere, written a few years I'm unsure of its name and location. ( title is something like "flying in formation").
Written by someone in the sa cfa or rural fire department, about air attack in the mount lofty ranges, It outlined how effective initial air attack was , to the point of senior cfa members complaining that junior ground crew were not getting enough experience in fighting big fires. Due to the fires being suppressed from the start by air attack.
May sound like a load of crap to some.
But I bet someone out there knows where this document is.
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Check out all the aviation/bombing stuff on this site
The Research | Bushfire Cooperative Research Centre
This mob also
Welcome to the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) | CSIRO
The RFS air support needs to be signed off by various people. It is a joke at that. Also the local managers want it to become a section 44 for O/T, and also the money comes out of the state coffer and not their own local coffer. (I am in the RFS so I am well aware of what goes on)
Look at WA with their zone 2 response. Irrespective of the type of call there is a automatic 3 station turn out plus helicopters. SA are the same, but different set up. Hit it hard early and go home.
So please Armchair experts please keep dribbling from your armchairs. It is very interesting to read your dribble.
The Research | Bushfire Cooperative Research Centre
This mob also
Welcome to the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) | CSIRO
The RFS air support needs to be signed off by various people. It is a joke at that. Also the local managers want it to become a section 44 for O/T, and also the money comes out of the state coffer and not their own local coffer. (I am in the RFS so I am well aware of what goes on)
Look at WA with their zone 2 response. Irrespective of the type of call there is a automatic 3 station turn out plus helicopters. SA are the same, but different set up. Hit it hard early and go home.
So please Armchair experts please keep dribbling from your armchairs. It is very interesting to read your dribble.
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For those who say the current fleet doesn't have enough capacity. There is a trend to operate fixed wing aircraft in a group. From pairs up to six or more. So minimum would be 6,000 litres up to 18,000 with six aircraft, all within a minute.
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after a bit of digging.
http://airtanker.org/wp-content/uplo...-Formation.pdf
second page, first and second paragraphs are about what i was referencing previous.
for Engineer_aus good to hear from someone on the RFS team who appears to have some of the same ideas of what we are all dribbling about.
just for clarification, "the local managers want it to become a section 44 for O/T" what does that mean? and how will that change things if it goes that way?
http://airtanker.org/wp-content/uplo...-Formation.pdf
second page, first and second paragraphs are about what i was referencing previous.
for Engineer_aus good to hear from someone on the RFS team who appears to have some of the same ideas of what we are all dribbling about.
just for clarification, "the local managers want it to become a section 44 for O/T" what does that mean? and how will that change things if it goes that way?
Section 44 is the Panic Button - it means they basically have a blank cheque, and is all funded by the Govt directly.
This means that Overtime payments don't drain the RFS funds.
I think they call this "The Tail wagging the dog"
This means that Overtime payments don't drain the RFS funds.
I think they call this "The Tail wagging the dog"
Horatio, most of the big(ger) implement decisions (for the fires surrounding Sydney anyway) were being made from Round Corner Dural upstairs HQ during the thick of the melee a few weeks ago. This from an involved family member...
I did put a (now lost - thanks to my 3.5 year old sitting on my lap while I was editting it) post up yesterday about some of the issues recently raised within the RFS, however there will always be those who think they know better than those paid to do it.
A couple of NSW based facts that may well not sit well with some:
* Phil Koperberg was the main proponent of ground based initial attack using a large number of bods to surround, cut and burn breaks and contain the fire. For this reason dumping upwards of 60 tonnes of water in one place above the heads of a large number of ground based personnel is not a smart way of preserving their lives, limbs or general health and well being. This mindset of using bods right at the fire front still pervades to this day. You have to change that and show them a better way.
* The cooler part of the day is the better time to get your ground bods on the job cutting breaks, back burning, actually fighting the fire etc and those moaning about being able to get into it early in the day with an aeroplane at that time would you like a cup of cement for the reasons listed above?
Neville (and all of the guru's out there fighting these fires) "love yer werk".
The issue isn't capacity per se, just the ability to direct one heck of a lot of water in one direction very quickly. Do you think it would be an even better idea to use the machinery we currently utilise to follow in behind a larger asset to stomp on the spots and crowns the big boy missed and then get back into the primary role while big boy is off getting topped-up again? I do....
I did put a (now lost - thanks to my 3.5 year old sitting on my lap while I was editting it) post up yesterday about some of the issues recently raised within the RFS, however there will always be those who think they know better than those paid to do it.
A couple of NSW based facts that may well not sit well with some:
* Phil Koperberg was the main proponent of ground based initial attack using a large number of bods to surround, cut and burn breaks and contain the fire. For this reason dumping upwards of 60 tonnes of water in one place above the heads of a large number of ground based personnel is not a smart way of preserving their lives, limbs or general health and well being. This mindset of using bods right at the fire front still pervades to this day. You have to change that and show them a better way.
* The cooler part of the day is the better time to get your ground bods on the job cutting breaks, back burning, actually fighting the fire etc and those moaning about being able to get into it early in the day with an aeroplane at that time would you like a cup of cement for the reasons listed above?
Neville (and all of the guru's out there fighting these fires) "love yer werk".
The issue isn't capacity per se, just the ability to direct one heck of a lot of water in one direction very quickly. Do you think it would be an even better idea to use the machinery we currently utilise to follow in behind a larger asset to stomp on the spots and crowns the big boy missed and then get back into the primary role while big boy is off getting topped-up again? I do....
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those moaning about being able to get into it early in the day with an aeroplane at that time would you like a cup of cement for the reasons listed above?
That's a bit harsh, and ill try not moan but i'll pass on the cup on cement as I think we should not forget the pilot recently lost due to a wing failure in the mid day turbulence.
Neville, the six in a group attack is actually pretty rare. It does happen, often in an initial attack, but once they get into the rotation of landing, filling, fueling etc. the rate really slows down and from the second run they are operating individually.
For all the 'armchair experts' comments floating around, it might be news to many here that it's actually many of the swivel chair chinless wonders in state and regional ops centers who are the real REMFs here. Many of the emergency management personnel have NEVER been firies, yet now wear the uniform and call the shots as 'experts'. Many (like PK) are there to further their own political/public service ambitions.
Those talking about SA and WA; I can't comment on SA, but in WA I have seen fires very quickly race out of control because they were not attacked quickly enough. During the 2011-12 season a burn off went so awry you could see the results from space. The same problem there was lack of assets. In one fire, close to Bunbury, JT, BUN and Bussleton bombers were able to keep up a good rate of application by filling and fueling at BUN. They, along with the ground based firies, soon had it knocked down. Same situation, but this time in Margs, stretched resources a little to far, and they found that the rate with the same assets was much lower, and the result disastrous.
For all the 'armchair experts' comments floating around, it might be news to many here that it's actually many of the swivel chair chinless wonders in state and regional ops centers who are the real REMFs here. Many of the emergency management personnel have NEVER been firies, yet now wear the uniform and call the shots as 'experts'. Many (like PK) are there to further their own political/public service ambitions.
Those talking about SA and WA; I can't comment on SA, but in WA I have seen fires very quickly race out of control because they were not attacked quickly enough. During the 2011-12 season a burn off went so awry you could see the results from space. The same problem there was lack of assets. In one fire, close to Bunbury, JT, BUN and Bussleton bombers were able to keep up a good rate of application by filling and fueling at BUN. They, along with the ground based firies, soon had it knocked down. Same situation, but this time in Margs, stretched resources a little to far, and they found that the rate with the same assets was much lower, and the result disastrous.
Stradbroke Is Fires
Does anyone else think that CL415's may have helped in the recent Stradbroke Is fires? I'd guess that reloading wouldn't have been too much of a problem. I think we will eventually get these aircraft or similar. It's only a matter of time until we have a major fire in a large centre. If I was a guessing person, I'd say Hobart would be a prime candidate. A serious fire out of control on Mt Wellington would be impossible to stop without some serious hardware. Plenty of water available down there. Unfortunately, it looks like it will take a disaster to prompt a serious investment in protecting out population.
I have been listening a lot to Bill Gammage. He has a book "The Greatest Estate on Earth- How Aborigines Made Australia"
Provocative thought for the greenies to allow mosaic and template burns in the nation's forests. Planned locally, nationally beneficial. Someone already has posted around here that more thought needs investing in numerous and regular planned fuel reduction burns to eliminate the scrubby middle storie in our bushland. Makes you wonder if the end game of the NPA is a landscape that predates aborigines...no wildfire means no need for expensive toys and massive, expensive, over staffed command and control.
The Straddie fire is looking more like fuel reduction now the humidity is up.
Provocative thought for the greenies to allow mosaic and template burns in the nation's forests. Planned locally, nationally beneficial. Someone already has posted around here that more thought needs investing in numerous and regular planned fuel reduction burns to eliminate the scrubby middle storie in our bushland. Makes you wonder if the end game of the NPA is a landscape that predates aborigines...no wildfire means no need for expensive toys and massive, expensive, over staffed command and control.
The Straddie fire is looking more like fuel reduction now the humidity is up.
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OZ, that book is one of the most significant books to have been published in Australia and apart from some of the more esoteric corners of the ABC it has received virtually no publicity. However, because it denies the basic greenie scream that we are denuding Australia it has b-all chance of getting a wider audience.
Sorry for the thread drift but if notice was taken of what he has written there would be no need for fire bombers at all. There, back to the thread.
However, because it denies the basic greenie scream that we are denuding Australia it has b-all chance of getting a wider audience. Sorry for the thread drift but if notice was taken of what he has written there would be no need for fire bombers at all. There, back to the thread.
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We seem to have had a number of major disasters (Canberra, Victoria, Tasmania,Springwood) in recent years without the right questions being asked.
I've just been to Springwood and the questions there are about the NSW Govt poor performance in reconstruction. No one seems to be asking about the poor performance of emergency services or if the nursing home deaths that occurred during and after the evacuations were preventable.
The place is full of signs praising the Fire services which did a good job with what they had but no mention of the overall poor result caused by unsuitable and limited air resources.
I haven't been to Lithgow but that fire is a classic where fire resources weren't allowed access initially due to explosives/security concerns but a large air attack would not have had the same constraint.
Unfortunately, this is a country that needs heros and these fires produced many of those so no one in authority wants to rock the boat.We here on PPrune will just have to accept on this subject that the rest of the World is wrong and we invented the right solution, even if it doesn't work very well.
Wunwing
I've just been to Springwood and the questions there are about the NSW Govt poor performance in reconstruction. No one seems to be asking about the poor performance of emergency services or if the nursing home deaths that occurred during and after the evacuations were preventable.
The place is full of signs praising the Fire services which did a good job with what they had but no mention of the overall poor result caused by unsuitable and limited air resources.
I haven't been to Lithgow but that fire is a classic where fire resources weren't allowed access initially due to explosives/security concerns but a large air attack would not have had the same constraint.
Unfortunately, this is a country that needs heros and these fires produced many of those so no one in authority wants to rock the boat.We here on PPrune will just have to accept on this subject that the rest of the World is wrong and we invented the right solution, even if it doesn't work very well.
Wunwing
Nice demo......
Perhaps every highway 'should' have one..???
Looks like the 'old Mortein' ad......"One Flick & Its Gorne"....
Cheers
Perhaps every highway 'should' have one..???
Looks like the 'old Mortein' ad......"One Flick & Its Gorne"....
Cheers