Fire Bombers
2003 Canberra
In Canberra in 2003, hazard reduction may have helped in stopping the fires reaching the pine plantations literally across the road from suburbia.
Most of the houses lost were in the Weston Creek area, next too / near the pine plantations (now gone). In the conditions on the day, there was no chance once it hit the pines.
Winds on the day meant we had fire debris (burnt leaves etc) falling in our back yard from the fires when the front was still about 10km away.
regards
layman
Most of the houses lost were in the Weston Creek area, next too / near the pine plantations (now gone). In the conditions on the day, there was no chance once it hit the pines.
Winds on the day meant we had fire debris (burnt leaves etc) falling in our back yard from the fires when the front was still about 10km away.
regards
layman
Witwiw, granted, my opinion re-actual burns down the surf coast is not based on first hand experience as yours. However, as you say, the intensity of the fire and the fact it was crowning. A fire will not crown without the intensity of a ground fire to sustain it. No fuel load, no crown fire!
I suppose I am causing a divergence from aerial fire fighting....
On black Saturday, no system or combination of systems could stop a fire in the conditions on the day...period! In CB, correct, once the fire got into the pines....and windrows of timber litter...it was all over!
I suppose I am causing a divergence from aerial fire fighting....
On black Saturday, no system or combination of systems could stop a fire in the conditions on the day...period! In CB, correct, once the fire got into the pines....and windrows of timber litter...it was all over!
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Here in WA we see no sign of the 146,DC10 or Hercules- maybe after 100 homes are destroyed we might, surely 2 Canadiars could drop just as much as the 146 in the same or similar timeframe, they don't have to land to reload and are probably more accurate, how many canadairs are available, 5 for each state sounds like a good idea, along with the current fleet of DC10, 146 and hercs we could have an Australia wide effort- instead of each state for themselves!
I realise that I have said all this in other posts....but why cannot the current C-130 fleet which we, the taxpayers own, actually be utilised in the dropping of fire retardant 'packages' / 'balloons', rolled out of the rear cargo door, directly onto a fire?
Its true that they would then have to return to a 'suitable aerodrome' to reload, but in this case YPJT is not too far away?
OK YPPH then. The transit time would be 4 minutes longer....
The area around the town of Yarloop etc is 'flat'. North / South runs preferred.
Even the CL-215 type could water 'skim' at the adjacent coast and pick sea water, or is this not allowed?
I just do not know how those 'in charge' think. I would have thought that the cost of a town the size / population of Yarloop would be 'worth it'.
Not to mention the adjacent dairy paddocks and vineyards.
And, just how long to get such an aircraft here - a day or so - or...gee whiz, station a couple over here every fire season!
I realise that I am crying after the horse has bolted....but....all serious answers will be entertained....
No cheers, nope...none at all..!!
Its true that they would then have to return to a 'suitable aerodrome' to reload, but in this case YPJT is not too far away?
OK YPPH then. The transit time would be 4 minutes longer....
The area around the town of Yarloop etc is 'flat'. North / South runs preferred.
Even the CL-215 type could water 'skim' at the adjacent coast and pick sea water, or is this not allowed?
I just do not know how those 'in charge' think. I would have thought that the cost of a town the size / population of Yarloop would be 'worth it'.
Not to mention the adjacent dairy paddocks and vineyards.
And, just how long to get such an aircraft here - a day or so - or...gee whiz, station a couple over here every fire season!
I realise that I am crying after the horse has bolted....but....all serious answers will be entertained....
No cheers, nope...none at all..!!
but why cannot the current C-130 fleet which we, the taxpayers own, actually be utilised in the dropping of fire retardant 'packages' / 'balloons'
Much cheaper to hire contracted services.
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Griffo - while we have former useless senior Police officers running DFES - who have bugger-all leadership ability, and are totally out of their depth when it comes to being pro-active on the fire suppression and fire containment ideas - then we will continue to have more Yarloops.
Don't forget that at least one former assistant Police Commissioner in a major managerial position in DFES, resigned right before he was going to be sacked for total incompetence - so he got parachuted into DFES as a reward from mates in the system.
The imbeciles we currently call "leaders" in the Govt, the DFES, and a dozen other important Govt bodies, are good at "media performance", quoting statistics, numbers and figures galore - but not a one of them could be shown as showing real leadership in arranging to have serious-size aerial water bombers on standby during our driest and hottest Spring and Summer for at least 30 yrs.
Nothing has been learnt from the Dwellingup disaster - and people such as Wayne Gregson would be out of their depth running a chook raffle.
Typically, it has been revealed that Yarloop ran out of "mains pressure" water during the height of the fire.
This happened because Yarloop is not on the Perth and South West reticulated "mains" water system - which is largely fed by high-mounted reservoirs and tanks to get the pressure.
Yarloop water supply is fed from a local dedicated water supply dam and catchment, from which, water is pressurised and reticulated to the town via an electric pump.
When the fire burnt down a serious number of power poles, the power supply went off due to circuit breakers being tripped - and as a result, pressurised water was no longer available in Yarloop - resulting in locals becoming unable to use mains water to fight the fire, and fire trucks having to find other sources of water supplies to be able to refill tanks.
It probably would have taken less than $50,000 to install an auto-start genset in a small fire-proof brick building, to kick in, and keep up the pressurised town water supply, to enable faster fire truck refilling and to enable locals to fight fires with mains water.
However, such forward-planning is totally beyond anyone in the heirarchy of local "leadership", and I guess we can look forward to more Yarloops due to that lack of forward-planning ability.
Don't look forward to any serious local investment in having substantial-capacity water-bombers on standby for W.A. during Summer - our "leaders" have other more important projects at hand - such as Elizabeth Quay, and a 100 other pet useless projects, that they can get their name and plaques on.
Don't forget that at least one former assistant Police Commissioner in a major managerial position in DFES, resigned right before he was going to be sacked for total incompetence - so he got parachuted into DFES as a reward from mates in the system.
The imbeciles we currently call "leaders" in the Govt, the DFES, and a dozen other important Govt bodies, are good at "media performance", quoting statistics, numbers and figures galore - but not a one of them could be shown as showing real leadership in arranging to have serious-size aerial water bombers on standby during our driest and hottest Spring and Summer for at least 30 yrs.
Nothing has been learnt from the Dwellingup disaster - and people such as Wayne Gregson would be out of their depth running a chook raffle.
Typically, it has been revealed that Yarloop ran out of "mains pressure" water during the height of the fire.
This happened because Yarloop is not on the Perth and South West reticulated "mains" water system - which is largely fed by high-mounted reservoirs and tanks to get the pressure.
Yarloop water supply is fed from a local dedicated water supply dam and catchment, from which, water is pressurised and reticulated to the town via an electric pump.
When the fire burnt down a serious number of power poles, the power supply went off due to circuit breakers being tripped - and as a result, pressurised water was no longer available in Yarloop - resulting in locals becoming unable to use mains water to fight the fire, and fire trucks having to find other sources of water supplies to be able to refill tanks.
It probably would have taken less than $50,000 to install an auto-start genset in a small fire-proof brick building, to kick in, and keep up the pressurised town water supply, to enable faster fire truck refilling and to enable locals to fight fires with mains water.
However, such forward-planning is totally beyond anyone in the heirarchy of local "leadership", and I guess we can look forward to more Yarloops due to that lack of forward-planning ability.
Don't look forward to any serious local investment in having substantial-capacity water-bombers on standby for W.A. during Summer - our "leaders" have other more important projects at hand - such as Elizabeth Quay, and a 100 other pet useless projects, that they can get their name and plaques on.
Mr LFA,
Re "Much cheaper to hire contracted services."
Then why haven't we??
The AT's do try, but something larger & able to deliver more suppressant / retardant seems to be warranted. ??
Mr O,
Thanks mate, I was trying not to get depressed / distressed......
I'm not a fan either.......
Cheers
Re "Much cheaper to hire contracted services."
Then why haven't we??
The AT's do try, but something larger & able to deliver more suppressant / retardant seems to be warranted. ??
Mr O,
Thanks mate, I was trying not to get depressed / distressed......
I'm not a fan either.......
Cheers
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And with the exception of the DC10, the hercs and RJ85 would easily be able to land at Busselton to refill with water, cuts the transit time to what, 5 mins?
How about not cutting up the old caribous when they were being scrapped and outfitting them with tanks?
2 of cobham's 146's are being scrapped, they could be operated by Cobham on behalf of the govmint!
How about not cutting up the old caribous when they were being scrapped and outfitting them with tanks?
2 of cobham's 146's are being scrapped, they could be operated by Cobham on behalf of the govmint!
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There's info on the W.A. DFES site about their use of Helitacs, and the DFES approach to aerial fire-fighting.
DFES - Helitacs
Keep in mind - that even the Americans and Canadians will tell you outright, that major fires are NOT put out by water bombers - the water-bombers hit hot spots, and enable ground crews to get in to attack and suppress the fire.
However, it is very obvious that the current W.A. fleet of Helitacs and the eight fixed-wing Airtractors on hand, are barely able to put a dent in a fire of the size we currently have in W.A.
This fire currently has a front of 222 kms, and has destroyed around 80,000 hectares. It's still burning and is showing no sign of slowing to any extent.
What is needed in an extreme fire such as this is, some serious equipment thrown at it.
The DFES makes a big noise about the money the W.A. Govt spent in 2012/2013 on aerial fire-fighting - quoting a figure of $20M spent.
However, we are currently looking at property and infrastructure losses running into the hundreds of millions of dollars.
In the case of the Yarloop Rail Heritage Workshops, we have lost a world-class piece of rail history that is irreplaceable and of incalculable value.
$20M looks like a pretty miserable outlay, and a case of false economy, if the Govt and DFES reckons that was a huge sum to spend on aerial fire-fighting, and are reluctant to spend more.
This is the same mob who will happily spend $440M on a pet project such as Elizabeth Quay - of dubious benefit to the State - but they'd baulk at spending another $20M on major aerial fire-fighting ability - content instead to see fire losses run into the hundreds of millions.
Here's a gallery of the fire damage - and keep in mind, this is not the final tally.
Waroona/Yarloop fire damage - photo gallery
DFES - Helitacs
Keep in mind - that even the Americans and Canadians will tell you outright, that major fires are NOT put out by water bombers - the water-bombers hit hot spots, and enable ground crews to get in to attack and suppress the fire.
However, it is very obvious that the current W.A. fleet of Helitacs and the eight fixed-wing Airtractors on hand, are barely able to put a dent in a fire of the size we currently have in W.A.
This fire currently has a front of 222 kms, and has destroyed around 80,000 hectares. It's still burning and is showing no sign of slowing to any extent.
What is needed in an extreme fire such as this is, some serious equipment thrown at it.
The DFES makes a big noise about the money the W.A. Govt spent in 2012/2013 on aerial fire-fighting - quoting a figure of $20M spent.
However, we are currently looking at property and infrastructure losses running into the hundreds of millions of dollars.
In the case of the Yarloop Rail Heritage Workshops, we have lost a world-class piece of rail history that is irreplaceable and of incalculable value.
$20M looks like a pretty miserable outlay, and a case of false economy, if the Govt and DFES reckons that was a huge sum to spend on aerial fire-fighting, and are reluctant to spend more.
This is the same mob who will happily spend $440M on a pet project such as Elizabeth Quay - of dubious benefit to the State - but they'd baulk at spending another $20M on major aerial fire-fighting ability - content instead to see fire losses run into the hundreds of millions.
Here's a gallery of the fire damage - and keep in mind, this is not the final tally.
Waroona/Yarloop fire damage - photo gallery
Last edited by onetrack; 9th Jan 2016 at 08:29. Reason: correction to fixed wing numbers and type
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I can confirm that both the Large air tankers from Vic and NSW were offered to WA but the offer was not accepted. Mind you they have already been to WA this year. Also note that the town of Yarloop was hit after dark so airsupport would have not been able to work anyway.
Re your 'note'....
Yes, that was around 9pm on Thurs night.
From WA News -
"YARLOOP residents have described how they tried to fight the flames before fleeing the town at the last minute.
Dairy farmer Joe Angi stayed until about 9pm on Thursday trying to protect his property with his brother before fleeing at the last minute."
The fire was started by lightning on Wednesday.....It burned all Wed night and all day Thursday, and was reported as 'widespread' before reaching the town of Yarloop on Thursday night.....
"Heavy Assets" MAY have been able to prevent the majority of the losses....
In my opinion.
Yes, that was around 9pm on Thurs night.
From WA News -
"YARLOOP residents have described how they tried to fight the flames before fleeing the town at the last minute.
Dairy farmer Joe Angi stayed until about 9pm on Thursday trying to protect his property with his brother before fleeing at the last minute."
The fire was started by lightning on Wednesday.....It burned all Wed night and all day Thursday, and was reported as 'widespread' before reaching the town of Yarloop on Thursday night.....
"Heavy Assets" MAY have been able to prevent the majority of the losses....
In my opinion.
Has anyone commenting here actually flown a Helitak or Bomber on contract before?
A lot of the comments would appear otherwise.
A lot of the comments would appear otherwise.
Last edited by havick; 10th Jan 2016 at 20:22.
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And still no answer to the question -
"How is the bigger equipment stacking up now that it is here?"
Have all the problems gone away or are the same problems presenting?
"How is the bigger equipment stacking up now that it is here?"
Have all the problems gone away or are the same problems presenting?
It appeared that the C130 flew the same patterns that the SEAT's were able to.
Griffo. As you said Yarloop was lost during the night, early hours of the morning. But then end off by saying that (Heavy Assets may have saved a lot of the Losses) How exactly?
Er.....
Hitting the fire on Wed. arvo or Thursday...all day ?
When it hit parts of Waroona, it was already 'bad', and being pushed WSW by the very gusty ENE. (Broadly speaking). Lots of sudden wind changes within the fire zone took it in most directions.
Sad!
p.s. It is very easy to be an 'armchair critic' after the event.
However, the apparent aversion to the use of 'heavy assets', like the C-130 type which we already own and have fully paid for, even the older models which we 'donate' to other countries like Indonesia, when they could have a valuable use HERE!
Subject to the usual airframe limitations / issues etc, it has already been said above that the C-130 type was 'super effective' in another theatre.
It does not have to get down 'in the weeds'. The turb. / vis etc would prohibit that, but surely it has the capacity to drop 'packages' of water / retardant on rollers out thru the back door from a 'reasonably safe' altitude onto the leading 'hotspots' of the fire whilst remaining clear of the main smoke column?
No, I am not a Herc pilot, but if is able to be done elsewhere, then why not here...?
Cheers
Hitting the fire on Wed. arvo or Thursday...all day ?
When it hit parts of Waroona, it was already 'bad', and being pushed WSW by the very gusty ENE. (Broadly speaking). Lots of sudden wind changes within the fire zone took it in most directions.
Sad!
p.s. It is very easy to be an 'armchair critic' after the event.
However, the apparent aversion to the use of 'heavy assets', like the C-130 type which we already own and have fully paid for, even the older models which we 'donate' to other countries like Indonesia, when they could have a valuable use HERE!
Subject to the usual airframe limitations / issues etc, it has already been said above that the C-130 type was 'super effective' in another theatre.
It does not have to get down 'in the weeds'. The turb. / vis etc would prohibit that, but surely it has the capacity to drop 'packages' of water / retardant on rollers out thru the back door from a 'reasonably safe' altitude onto the leading 'hotspots' of the fire whilst remaining clear of the main smoke column?
No, I am not a Herc pilot, but if is able to be done elsewhere, then why not here...?
Cheers
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 11th Jan 2016 at 06:09.
via OZBUSDRIVER #103:
Witwiw, granted, my opinion re-actual burns down the surf coast is not based on first hand experience as yours. However, as you say, the intensity of the fire and the fact it was crowning. A fire will not crown without the intensity of a ground fire to sustain it. No fuel load, no crown fire!
I suppose I am causing a divergence from aerial fire fighting....
Witwiw, granted, my opinion re-actual burns down the surf coast is not based on first hand experience as yours. However, as you say, the intensity of the fire and the fact it was crowning. A fire will not crown without the intensity of a ground fire to sustain it. No fuel load, no crown fire!
I suppose I am causing a divergence from aerial fire fighting....
I would suggest that a properly maintained burn-off regime would only need the local agy fixed wing and rotary operators as the back-up air capability of the fire services.
The current greeny caused clustafeck in WA was easily foreseen as a megafluck about to happen that would need heavy lifters to fight.
Jo Nova has compiled some background to the current fires...
From 2014:
"THE horrifying scale of the bushfire threat faced by West Australians is made clear by this map exposing the amount of old vegetation across the state.
The map reveals the build-up of fuel - combustible trees, shrub and ground litter - aged over seven years near Perth and in the South-West.
This is the age it becomes almost impossible to control on even average summer conditions - let alone catastrophic days with soaring temperatures and fast winds.
Rising fuel ages and a failure to hit prescribed burn targets means bushfire is WA's "pre-eminent hazard", according to the State Emergency Management Committee..."
Continues with map and article: Yarloop fire: History repeats ? in 1961, a 41 day inferno destroyed 160 buildings and burned a larger area in South-West WA « JoNova
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