Two more Jabirus down
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Oh, it certainly wasn't meant meant to be in any way insulting. Moreso many pilots that fly real GA engines like a Lycoming may not know that a Jab has coils and no mixture.
No probs XXX, my day job is in an A330, I guess with the downturn in pay and conditions you could say Airlines are nothing more than "GA with Jets" now days!!! 
Last edited by nitpicker330; 3rd Sep 2013 at 10:14.
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Morituri te salutant ?
Watched the video with some interest: couple of things caught my attention.
The benefit of good sound training and lots of practice; apart from natural talent, the instructor has clearly done many hours of training students to forced landings; it was nice to see the "training" kick in smoothly during a real event; just another day at the office. The lessons, hard learned from way back, when engine failure and forced landings were a little more 'routine' than nowadays are still valid – even if considered, by some to be little more than a PIA or a box to be ticked. It's probably a once in lifetime event, but the stand out for me was the way the training and practice produced calm, confident management of what could, in less practiced hands become a nasty, sad event. Well done training, well done practice and nicely done that young man.
Another small, although highly debatable issue is that of circuit size; at one time it was that every landing was a 'glide' approach; the aircraft never any further away from the paddock than the glide distance. Now I'm just saying – there's merit in that the routine practice 'management' of the critical last few hundred feet (say from turning base) without donkey assistance reduced at least some of the pucker factor; and, the confidence gained from practice would be beneficial should the noise stop, sudden like.
Anyway – being totally ignorant of the "Jab", can someone provide the glide speed ? please, it probably was the camera lying (again), but the thing seemed to me to be a bit 'quick', I held my breath the last 3 seconds before touch; as I say camera and all that, but curious now.
Edit to add – even before the donkey croaks, at the first sign of 'bovver' the instructor is looking for a user friendly paddock, also it seems to me that whatever checks could be done, before during and after were done (although ignorance is bliss), watch the first few seconds again.
I do second the motion to have young men of that calibre on the flight deck; nicely done. Indeed, bravo and Choccy frogs all around....
The benefit of good sound training and lots of practice; apart from natural talent, the instructor has clearly done many hours of training students to forced landings; it was nice to see the "training" kick in smoothly during a real event; just another day at the office. The lessons, hard learned from way back, when engine failure and forced landings were a little more 'routine' than nowadays are still valid – even if considered, by some to be little more than a PIA or a box to be ticked. It's probably a once in lifetime event, but the stand out for me was the way the training and practice produced calm, confident management of what could, in less practiced hands become a nasty, sad event. Well done training, well done practice and nicely done that young man.
Another small, although highly debatable issue is that of circuit size; at one time it was that every landing was a 'glide' approach; the aircraft never any further away from the paddock than the glide distance. Now I'm just saying – there's merit in that the routine practice 'management' of the critical last few hundred feet (say from turning base) without donkey assistance reduced at least some of the pucker factor; and, the confidence gained from practice would be beneficial should the noise stop, sudden like.
Anyway – being totally ignorant of the "Jab", can someone provide the glide speed ? please, it probably was the camera lying (again), but the thing seemed to me to be a bit 'quick', I held my breath the last 3 seconds before touch; as I say camera and all that, but curious now.
Edit to add – even before the donkey croaks, at the first sign of 'bovver' the instructor is looking for a user friendly paddock, also it seems to me that whatever checks could be done, before during and after were done (although ignorance is bliss), watch the first few seconds again.
I do second the motion to have young men of that calibre on the flight deck; nicely done. Indeed, bravo and Choccy frogs all around....
Last edited by Kharon; 3rd Sep 2013 at 20:39. Reason: After thoughts - or creaking of old machinery.
Interesting little Vid & under the circumstances a job well executed
A good reminder to all those out there flying SE at Low Alt (You JABBA
). I wouldn't be trying to hard to restart the machine at that low Alt, the guy knew his priorities & stuck to them. Try a few basic re-start items if time permits once yr heading to a safe Ldg area otherwise consider that engine of no further use.
Many a plane has stalled/crashed due the pilot getting sidetracked trying to restart the donk whilst at a low Alt.
If I recall a Dove (DH104) out of EN a million years ago that went in just Sth of the drome, the pilot was continually trying to restart the failed donk after T/Off & 4got to retract the flaps after the donk failure ( I believe that was the story but could be incorrect), nasty outcome.
Wmk2
A good reminder to all those out there flying SE at Low Alt (You JABBA
). I wouldn't be trying to hard to restart the machine at that low Alt, the guy knew his priorities & stuck to them. Try a few basic re-start items if time permits once yr heading to a safe Ldg area otherwise consider that engine of no further use. Many a plane has stalled/crashed due the pilot getting sidetracked trying to restart the donk whilst at a low Alt.
If I recall a Dove (DH104) out of EN a million years ago that went in just Sth of the drome, the pilot was continually trying to restart the failed donk after T/Off & 4got to retract the flaps after the donk failure ( I believe that was the story but could be incorrect), nasty outcome.
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 4th Sep 2013 at 01:07. Reason: the usual culprit, pore speeling:-)
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Triple X-ray #36 "A prop won't windmill on a Jab as there's a faid (fair) wad of compression. At a guess from experience it would take 140 knots before it will even think about turning over."
...but it has been a long while, happy daze.
Last edited by Kharon; 4th Sep 2013 at 02:21. Reason: Baked bean sambo's, hell of a mess.
Not far off, Kharon. Biggest piece of the piston left is about the size of your thumb. I've seen it. If you can get the heat out of those machined heads more efficiently, they probably last a bit longer.
Always remember John McBride being asked what he knew about the Jabapu...
Walked outside and started looking around in an upwardly direction. When asked what he was doing, replied, "there should be one falling out of the sky around here sometime soon..."
Always remember John McBride being asked what he knew about the Jabapu...
Walked outside and started looking around in an upwardly direction. When asked what he was doing, replied, "there should be one falling out of the sky around here sometime soon..."
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 4th Sep 2013 at 06:31.
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one falling out of the sky around here sometime soon
I heard someone say that CASA is not responsible for investigating non VH- reg aircraft accidents; if that is true, can anyone point me in the direction of some accident/incident stats for ultralights?
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CASA don't investigate anything, ATSB do. CASA may make enquiries afterwards, but who knows where that would lead as they have no piston knowledge anyway if some of the reports in the last 10 or so years are anything to go by.
The Jab engine probably has a higher rate of destruction than others, but they do a lot of hours too.
And keep in perspective the one last week ran out of fuel allegedly. Hardly the engines fault.
Many problems seen in RAAus could be attributed to owner maintenance. And possibly the ones in schools with qualified maintenance too. Who knows.
MIHC has raised a point the heat transfer of the machined head may not be quite as good as the cast surface too, but I have a feeling it is more about airflow.
Airflow under a cowl does not do what you think it does. It defies simple logic and until you measure it and video it you tend to believe what looks like common sense. And it is very challenging when you see results that are the polar opposite.
For more info get the October AOPA magazine or the September Airsport Magazine, a great article in there.
The Jab engine probably has a higher rate of destruction than others, but they do a lot of hours too.
And keep in perspective the one last week ran out of fuel allegedly. Hardly the engines fault.
Many problems seen in RAAus could be attributed to owner maintenance. And possibly the ones in schools with qualified maintenance too. Who knows.
MIHC has raised a point the heat transfer of the machined head may not be quite as good as the cast surface too, but I have a feeling it is more about airflow.
Airflow under a cowl does not do what you think it does. It defies simple logic and until you measure it and video it you tend to believe what looks like common sense. And it is very challenging when you see results that are the polar opposite.
For more info get the October AOPA magazine or the September Airsport Magazine, a great article in there.
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Homework
Cheers MIHC – interesting little puzzle. Soundly cursing the bump of curiosity, I went digging about for Jab information. Must say the POH is very good and the Jab folks seem honest enough about engine cooling. Most informative – Engine Cooling – blurb was worth the few moments it took to read, Jabba is onto it. It's refreshing to see an issue being tackled openly, it's no wonder the little beasties are popular.
Hunted down the speed range – the POH I looked at placed max glide at 65 KIAS and engine out landing at 60 KIAS, which is comparable with similar aircraft. There are some interesting 'cautions' regarding in flight restart though:-
Now, I've scratched that itch – well done Jabiru; nice to see that someone cares.
Hunted down the speed range – the POH I looked at placed max glide at 65 KIAS and engine out landing at 60 KIAS, which is comparable with similar aircraft. There are some interesting 'cautions' regarding in flight restart though:-
In the event that the engine is stopped during flight, it may be restarted by application of fuel & ignition, provided that the propeller is still windmilling. The propeller may stop windmilling below 50 KIAS.
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The propeller may stop windmilling below 50 KIAS.
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J 160 POH
XXX – I only looked at the J160 POH; it was the first one on the list.. It's really great that you can go to their web site, access and at no cost download lots of great information. Great service at the front end.
There you go - last week I'd never heard of them, now I learned something.. Lurvely...
Section 3 - Emergency procedures - J160.
3.3.2 Air start & Limitations.
In the event that the engine is stopped during flight, it may be restarted by application of fuel & ignition, provided that the propeller is still wind-milling. The propeller may stop wind-milling below 50 KIAS.
The Jabiru 2200 engine is a high compression (7.8:1) engine & therefore air starts when the propeller has stopped rotating, without the use of the starter, are unlikely before reaching VNE. Therefore, the following procedure addresses only air starts by use of the starter motor.
IMPORTANT – NO NOT depress starter button while propeller is rotating
3.3.2 Air start & Limitations.
In the event that the engine is stopped during flight, it may be restarted by application of fuel & ignition, provided that the propeller is still wind-milling. The propeller may stop wind-milling below 50 KIAS.
The Jabiru 2200 engine is a high compression (7.8:1) engine & therefore air starts when the propeller has stopped rotating, without the use of the starter, are unlikely before reaching VNE. Therefore, the following procedure addresses only air starts by use of the starter motor.
IMPORTANT – NO NOT depress starter button while propeller is rotating
Last edited by Kharon; 5th Sep 2013 at 02:14.
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What is extremely frustrating is a lot of engine failures go unreported.
Usually the engine is sent back to the factory for repair/warranty/upgrade
And returned to service. Many times I have had people say they have never
Had any problems with their Jabs, only to find out later that in fact they have had either one, or multiple engine failures.
And this is part of the problem for the ATSB at the moment.
Hardly anyone, probably 80% of the component failures go unreported.
Everyone wants to see an Aussie company succeed, but unless Useful Data can
Be collected and processed, it is difficult for them to get a true picture of what
Is happening out there, and make required recommendations.
Usually the engine is sent back to the factory for repair/warranty/upgrade
And returned to service. Many times I have had people say they have never
Had any problems with their Jabs, only to find out later that in fact they have had either one, or multiple engine failures.
And this is part of the problem for the ATSB at the moment.
Hardly anyone, probably 80% of the component failures go unreported.
Everyone wants to see an Aussie company succeed, but unless Useful Data can
Be collected and processed, it is difficult for them to get a true picture of what
Is happening out there, and make required recommendations.
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Perspective
You are absolutely correct. I've heard rumours that Jab engines more often tend to lose power rather than quit outright but I have no data on this.( Sorry Jabba ) 
It would be in everyones interest to know what caused every partial failure and every complete failure. If it's a design fault---- FIX IT. If it's an installation fault ----FIX IT If it's an operator fault--- TRAIN THEM
Cheers RA
Everyone wants to see an Aussie company succeed, but unless Useful Data can
Be collected and processed, it is difficult for them to get a true picture of what
Is happening out there, and make required recommendations.
Be collected and processed, it is difficult for them to get a true picture of what
Is happening out there, and make required recommendations.
It would be in everyones interest to know what caused every partial failure and every complete failure. If it's a design fault---- FIX IT. If it's an installation fault ----FIX IT If it's an operator fault--- TRAIN THEMCheers RA
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I imagine the Jab factory has all the data – has anyone approached them?. The data would be sensitive but handled properly it could be turned into a positive. The other option is owners volunteering the info to a central data base; I don't believe it's illegal have "engine problems" but it would be naughty not to share.
XXX – ......I did, in my own way get it; - - I'm slow, but not quite as
XXX – ..
....I did, in my own way get it; - - I'm slow, but not quite asLast edited by Kharon; 5th Sep 2013 at 20:58.
Perspective you are absolutely correct. I'd have said 66% are 'unreported' if the subsequent emergency turns out satisfactorily and there's no public reporting. It's what is supporting the used market.
Kharon The forced landing was really well done. As it was a J170 - 60KIAS is about right for the final approach as it wasn't clear how much flap had been deployed. It looked a rather 'flat' final as they just cleared that shed - so maybe they only had half or less. Whatever - it worked on the day.
With the J160, speeds are usually up by 5 kts on the 170. Depending on weight at the time 65-70 will work fine. More often than not - the trim will be fully used to hold the attitude so it's more pilot effort to fly them any slower....probably a fair safety feature.
happy days,
Kharon The forced landing was really well done. As it was a J170 - 60KIAS is about right for the final approach as it wasn't clear how much flap had been deployed. It looked a rather 'flat' final as they just cleared that shed - so maybe they only had half or less. Whatever - it worked on the day.
With the J160, speeds are usually up by 5 kts on the 170. Depending on weight at the time 65-70 will work fine. More often than not - the trim will be fully used to hold the attitude so it's more pilot effort to fly them any slower....probably a fair safety feature.
happy days,
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55 knots on final for our fleet of J170's. 50 knots for a short fielder. With a stall speed of <=45 knots, it makes perfect sense.
Anything higher than that is at your peril and one of the reasons why so many Jabs have had runway excursions; schools are often teaching them speeds that are far too high and when things go pear-shaped, it all happens very quickly.
At a guess his speed was probably about right as he held back-stick for quite a while and if he had been too fast, it would have started climbing.
Anything higher than that is at your peril and one of the reasons why so many Jabs have had runway excursions; schools are often teaching them speeds that are far too high and when things go pear-shaped, it all happens very quickly.
At a guess his speed was probably about right as he held back-stick for quite a while and if he had been too fast, it would have started climbing.