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Newbie & Flying Training Advice (Merged)

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Newbie & Flying Training Advice (Merged)

Old 18th Feb 2019, 09:10
  #541 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Sydney
Posts: 283
Originally Posted by Okihara View Post
What does a responsible instructor do when their student is sent out solo that justifies the latter to pay dual rate? Serious question.

I'm obviously not saying that any work (of value) on the instructor part should be at no cost for the student but I find that charging as much as dual rate on solo navigations is nothing short of fraud. I'd be happy to be educated to the contrary, that is.
Originally Posted by Okihara View Post
Aussie Bob
From the student's perspective, I honestly can't really say what warrants being charged dual rate on solo navigations. That's from my personal experience having had instructors that couldn't seem to care less. Solo navigation routes were all predefined, thus allowing little to no degree of freedom, to aerodromes that had been previously visited. Preflight briefings involved minimal input, debriefings were more proforma and often had to be deferred to the following day because said instructor was out flying with another student when I'd return. On that basis, I would never have accepted to pay dual rate.
Don't tar all instructors and schools with the one brush. The school I work for charges first solo at the dual rate (1st solo, 1st area solo, 1st nav solo) and subsequent solos at the solo rate however still pays the supervising instructor the same rate as dual (ie the business wears the cost). Because the instructor is expected to be working when supervising.

What work you ask?

As a supervising instructor (eg for 2nd solo nav) they should check the weather and notams (often well in advance of the student), make sure the aircraft has been given its daily and is available, (again usually before the student arrives). On the basis of the weather they will have already decided what the risks are and if they think it should proceed. On arrival they will get the student to brief them on the weather and will check their flightplan before departure. It is not unknown to notice they have totally stuffed one leg with a reciprocal heading or miscalculation of wind. They will raise issues about notams the student has missed so better be sure they checked them first. They must brief the student on what is expected - eg where to land (in some cases they need to make 2 full stop landings), what issues they may encounter, to remind them about the weather conditions (if appropriate) and what options they have if they encounter problems. They will discuss the decsion to proceed and what they should do and not do, all using their professional judgement, training and experience.

After the student departs, the instructor will not be out of contact until they return, ie they cannot leave work, whether they have other students, briefings, other work *or not* in that time or are sitting in the office idle, they need to be available. They cannot just knock off and go home.

If the student calls ("I am at Dubbo and the ptt switch is not working - what do I do?", "I am at Goulburn and there seem to be lots of thunderstorms on the way home, should I stay here the night?"), they need to be available and give appropriate advice.

If the student isn't back and the instructor is concerned that they should be, the instructor is the one who is expected to call their mobile to see if all is OK. When the mobile doesn't respond and their concern is sufficient, they will be the one who will call flight service and asks if the aircraft can be raised on radio. They will also be the one who sits sweating when they hear back that flight service cannot raise them. They will be the one double checking their sartime and their calculated endurance after finding out earlier in the flight, they revised it. They will be the one ringing people they might know at any of the airports the student may have landed at.

They are the ones who silently sigh with relief when they hear the student turn up inbound. On arrival they will ask them how it went, remind them to cancel their sartime, ask them if they heard Melbourne centre calling them and ask them what frequency they were on and hear them sheepishly admit they forgot to switch from a CTAF frequency for most of the return leg and discuss any other issues they may have had or questions that arise.

They will be the one who updates their training record and makes sure it is all in order for when CASA audits the school. They will be the one who has to explain to the CFI if they are any discrepencies, and whether all requirements have been met and details completed.

They will also be the one who will be asked to explain why the student penetrated control airspace without a clearance, had they been appropriately trained and what the instructor and school will be doing to insure that doesn't happen again.

God forbid, if something nasty happens, they will be Johnny on the spot, contacting those who need to know and later they will be the ones who will be quizzed, why did the instructor judge the student capable of this flight alone? did they appropriately brief them? check their plan? train them? overlook anything? etc.

You think paying them for this work is fraud? Instructor wages are generally the lowest in the industry as it is. That is the nature of the game. Pay them more and ask students to pay more and you would find students would walk away. Pay them more and ask the school to subsidise that? Schools would fold - it is not viable. You want to instruct? It is not the gravy train end of the industry. Do it because you want to. Even if you are looking beyond instructing, do it because you want to, not because you must. There are many schools with instructors who enjoy instructing and want to offer good value to their students and employer.

Supervising solo students is a serious responsibility and I think it appropriate to recognise and reward people for it. Most other jobs pay people to be on call or to be the person in charge of ensuring a safe and successful outcome. ATC are not paid by the number of aircraft they handle or times they push the radio button on any day. Tower controllers at a GA aerodrome who spend a wet and windy monday doing little because no one is flying still get paid the same for being there. Doctors on call who aren't called will still be paid. Why not instructors assuming responsibility for a school's reputation and particularly an individual student's and aircraft's safety?


Are there some schools who do not act responsibly? Yes. You seem to have found one. That school is not all schools. Don't tar all with the same brush.

Not all schools are full of junior instructors with no love (or work ethic) for instructing and who are only hour building and see instructing (and students) as a necessary evil in their journey.

You want to find a good school? Shop around, visit schools, talk to their students, see what they offer.
Don't look just at price but at the experience level of their staff and their focus on their customers.
See what sort of training they specialise in.
See if you like their style (different schools cater for different types of students), judge if you feel they want to offer you something more than the minimum.

Sometimes good value means paying more.



Diatribe over.
jonkster is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2019, 16:57
  #542 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by PiperTyro View Post
Would you mind sharing a bit more about the path you took and where you've ended up and what doing? The US is a path I have considered myself. I am assuming you were able to use the E3 visa?
I was fortunate to have working rights from family history. I have a friend who is over here on an E3 visa at a regional and from the sounds of it, your choices of employment may be a little more limited until you obtain full working rights.

I got my ratings simply through local schools of my own choosing. Eventually cracked it as an employed pilot and worked for an aerial mapping company before being hired by a regional airline for a few years. With some luck and hard work, I'm now employed by a top 4 major US airline.

Last edited by WheyPCRocks; 18th Feb 2019 at 17:25.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 12:26
  #543 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 264
@Jonkster
Point(s) taken. Thanks for that very detailed answer, much appreciated. Between licences, endorsements and ratings, I changed schools a total of 4 times now and have flown with a good many different blokes, but I have yet to meet the level of commitment and involvement you express. While I mostly agree with you, with all due respect, you don't strike me as the average instructor either. I expect that there will be others like you out there, albeit in a minority. Like I said, finding the right instructor is – unfortunately – a bit of hit-and-miss, mostly miss. In summary, yes, there's definitely a point to pay extra for good value, even on solo navigations.
Okihara is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2019, 13:32
  #544 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 743
Thanks Jonkster.
I have a rate for supervised solo that reflects that the instructor also gets paid a lower hourly rate for supervision than if they are flying. Sure they might be "double dipping" if they are doing another flight while the student is out solo, but they still have a double responsibility at the time...plus they have to stay at the airport until the student returns.
It would be very unreasonable to expect the instructor to take on that responsibility for "free" and sure, there is not enough fat around to cover the wages if the student is given the aircraft at the hire rate.
A lot of people want things for nothing when they are students and feel they are getting ripped off when in fact what they want to do is rip off the instructor...then want a fair rate when they become instructors.
The rate isn't just their wages, partly as a return on their investment in becoming an instructor; but also the cost to the school of their induction course, drug testing, standardisation check rides, renewals, uniforms, super, compo, etc etc. Now some schools cheat on that with sham contracting, which is disgraceful and no instructor should ever accept that. The other thing is the trend to charge a big chunk for pre flight briefings and only give the instructor a paltry 20% or so of what they charge.
So to agree with Jonkster, the hourly rate is not a guide to the value you will get per dollar. Get a different junior instructor with their heads in the clouds each time and watch the money disappear without you getting value for it.
And never, ever pay up front for flying training. If a school demands that they may be trading insolvent and then you (and your instructor) will be an unsecured creditor if/when the locks get changed.
Clare Prop is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2019, 01:14
  #545 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Perth
Posts: 2
TAFE aviation course

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for the reply on my previous post.
I am in the processes of finalizing my flight school/training. I have found a few options one is a full time 'Diploma of Aviation' through TAFE, does anyone have any feedback on the course they offer? I have met with them already and they seem a organised professional outfit. It will provide me with CPL and 163 hours including 13 night hours. This is obviously very appealing as the HELP loans are also offered.

Thanks for any help guys
Happy89 is offline  
Old 19th Mar 2019, 23:34
  #546 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Applying To The Majors

Hi All,

I'm getting to the point in my career that I need to start thinking about applying for the majors! I have a frozen ATPL, approaching 1500hrs total, 400 multi engine turbo prop command along with that. The ultimate dream goal would be to get into Qantas or Virgin. I'm after some advice on what pre-interview prep would be best, study materials, sim, interview preparation companies, etc. And also some thoughts on what to do, as I'm currently bonded for $20k for the next couple of years with my current job, and I am really enjoying the work I'm currently doing. However, I don't want to miss the opportunity at the moment with all this movement about.

I see that Qantas and Jetstar aren't accepting applications at the moment, so that makes that an easy choice, and Virgin 737 NZ applications close on March 31. I don't particularly want to leave my current job at the moment, so if I was successful in an interview and job offer, would I be able to delay a commencement date if given one earlier than I'd ideally like? I'm under the impression that if successful with Virgin, I wouldn't be given a start date at the moment as I don't have my ATPL or an MCC, is this correct? I would still like to remain where I am for a while after obtaining my ATPL.

Are Qantas or Jetstar likely to open up applications any time soon, and if so, would pilots be placed on hold? I've heard rumours that they're both fine at the moment but potentially towards the end of the year things may begin to move again.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated, especially if it gets me thinking from an angle I haven't yet considered. I understand that a lot of my questions may be difficult to answer and what might be correct today, the answer in a months time could be drastically different.

Thanks in advanced!
MetroSweatro is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 12:14
  #547 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 542
Good lord, just going back over an old thread...don’t tell me Spod has gotten a licence?

I have not recovered from him painting bollards nipple pink in 1994
Snakecharma is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 22:25
  #548 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 30
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by MetroSweatro View Post
Hi All,

I'm getting to the point in my career that I need to start thinking about applying for the majors! I have a frozen ATPL, approaching 1500hrs total, 400 multi engine turbo prop command along with that. The ultimate dream goal would be to get into Qantas or Virgin. I'm after some advice on what pre-interview prep would be best, study materials, sim, interview preparation companies, etc. And also some thoughts on what to do, as I'm currently bonded for $20k for the next couple of years with my current job, and I am really enjoying the work I'm currently doing. However, I don't want to miss the opportunity at the moment with all this movement about.

I see that Qantas and Jetstar aren't accepting applications at the moment, so that makes that an easy choice, and Virgin 737 NZ applications close on March 31. I don't particularly want to leave my current job at the moment, so if I was successful in an interview and job offer, would I be able to delay a commencement date if given one earlier than I'd ideally like? I'm under the impression that if successful with Virgin, I wouldn't be given a start date at the moment as I don't have my ATPL or an MCC, is this correct? I would still like to remain where I am for a while after obtaining my ATPL.

Are Qantas or Jetstar likely to open up applications any time soon, and if so, would pilots be placed on hold? I've heard rumours that they're both fine at the moment but potentially towards the end of the year things may begin to move again.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated, especially if it gets me thinking from an angle I haven't yet considered. I understand that a lot of my questions may be difficult to answer and what might be correct today, the answer in a months time could be drastically different.

Thanks in advanced!

Hi Mate. Before others jump in and tell you the reality of "majors" job prospective, i would just say with your current flight time hrs you stand a greater chance to join USA regionals on the E3 visa initiative than getting local jobs. Completion is high and you got the guys/ladies coming from DXB & Asia with "heavy jet time" all wanting the same job you want. So look into the USA regional thing, jet some jet and command time over there and after 5 or so years you maybe in the same level field with the "heavy" guys.
Alex3008 is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2019, 21:09
  #549 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: stockholm
Posts: 9
Flight school Perth or Melbourne

hey y’all!

I’m thinking of getting my PPL, either heli or airplane, in Australia (Perth or Melbourne) and need some advice on good flight schools! With good I mean great teachers, no online ground school etc. Location doesn’t matter too much.

Good thing about Perth is I have somewhere to stay for free...

hit me!

thanks ⭐️

Last edited by miramis; 27th Mar 2019 at 23:19.
miramis is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2019, 23:04
  #550 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 1,196
Go to Perth. Many more flying days per year.
pilotchute is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2019, 23:20
  #551 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: stockholm
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by pilotchute View Post
Go to Perth. Many more flying days per year.
ok, thanks
miramis is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2019, 00:08
  #552 (permalink)  

Victim of a bored god

Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 1996
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,298
Also posted in the PPRuNe, Canadian Forum a couple of days ago:

I am Swedish but planning to become a commercial pilot in Canada (Vancouver area preferably) and settle down there. I have a BIG dilemma though! I'm not sure what type of aircraft to choose?!
I've flown a helicopter R22, a cessna 150/172 and a piper supercub (float). Enjoyed all of them equally!!! (No license yet)
Don't you think you should be deciding where you want to go and what you want to do before asking these questions?
tail wheel is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2019, 00:25
  #553 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: stockholm
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by tail wheel View Post
Also posted in the PPRuNe, Canadian Forum a couple of days ago:



Don't you think you should be deciding where you want to go and what you want to do before asking these questions?

sorry what do you mean?
I’m asking because I can see myself flying both heli and airplane commercially, therefore it would be smarter to pick the one with more job opportunities.. Canada and Australia I’ve been told is the better market for both!

so I kinda have to ask about “where” and “what”..


miramis is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2019, 04:16
  #554 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 264
You'll probably get more flyable days in Perth, but Melbourne might have a busier airspace and therefore have more learning value (apologies if I offended anyone and happy to be corrected if I'm wrong). That being said however, I'm assuming you'll be doing this full time so the weather won't actually be that much of a problem, whether you train in Perth or Melbourne. Because you're doing this full time, you'll be hanging around at the school filling gaps in between flying by learning the material for the written exams. Therefore I'd be looking to add other factors into your decision making process, the city definitely being an important one. Here again, I think you'll find that Melbourne is a much larger city than Perth, and as such has more to offer to young people.

Choosing a school itself has been the subject of many threads on PPRuNe so you should have no trouble finding the answers you're after using the search tool. I can't speak much about schools in Perth but when it comes to those based in Moorabbin, be wary of marketing, shiny looks and seemingly cheap rates. There's no free lunch and you get what you pay for. Ask yourself what type of aircraft the school operates and whether they're the ones you'd want to fly in. Do your research by reading reviews, and talk to them directly. If you have the option to visit and do a trial flight with a couple of them, that'll give you some real insights into what to expect. Finally if you want to mitigate the risk of being stuck with a school you're dissatisfied with, use the fact that you can get a RPL (both for fixed and rotary wings) after some 25-30 hours and change schools to carry on with your PPL. There might be some visa considerations to observe but that's an option that would give you more freedom. If you're happy with your school, you may as well skip the RPL and go straight for the PPL.

I've had positive impressions of a school operating a fleet of Cirrus. Not the cheapest option in town by any standard but I highly liked that they charge on flight switch (as opposed to engine as most schools do) which is more conducive to learning because you won't rush your run-up checks and won't stress if you have to wait for 20' at the holding point. If you were charged on engine time, you'd be spending around 20% of your budget on ground time at a large class D airport like Bankstown or Moorabbin. Lastly they're not cheap but they have very experienced instructors and, with all due respect, there's a strong chance that you'll learn heaps more from a 50 year old instructor who's been flying for 25 years than a 22 year old who just got his instructor rating (again, no offence, I've been instructed very well by junior instructors). Other schools that operate a mix of Pipers and Cessnas have a solid reputation. Then you have a range of newer schools that operate lighter aircraft in both GA and RA. I can't say much about those and only time will tell how successful they are.

Last edited by Okihara; 28th Mar 2019 at 16:07.
Okihara is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2019, 07:56
  #555 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,840
Mirimis,
Perth, there are some good small schools at Jandakot (and I am not biased -- I am in Sydney) and as Perth is about as far as you can get from Fort Fumble (CASA HQ) things are generally (but not always) reasonably pragmatic.
Have you considered NZ, Canada or the US to start off ---- they all have their advantages, compared to Australia.
Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  
Old 28th Mar 2019, 08:11
  #556 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 1,196
Do you have the right to work in either Australia or Canada?
pilotchute is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2019, 02:06
  #557 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vietnam
Posts: 1,196
You obviously dont have the right to work in either country so why do you ask?
pilotchute is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2019, 05:40
  #558 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: California
Posts: 1
Best place to complete PPL in New Zealand (2019)

Hi all, I've done about 70 hours of flight training in the US and now looking to finish my PPL in New Zealand. Any current recommendations for best flight schools?

There seems to be a good option in Wanaka where the scenery looks spectacular and the school seems really nice but they only have old non-fuel injected 172s. I would rather finish my training in a modern 172, or even better, something with modern avionics.

Any recommendations or tips most appreciated!
palomar92000 is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2019, 09:24
  #559 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: India
Posts: 18
Flight School Recommendations in Melbourne, Australia

Hi folks, helping a relative shortlist Flight Schools in Melbourne, Australia for a Commercial Pilot Training Course. As of now, some of the schools that they're looking at are

1. MELBOURNE FLIGHT TRAINING

2. CAE OXFORD

3. SOAR AVIATION

4. LEARN TO FLY

5. ROYAL VICTORIAN AERO CLUB

Course duration's seem to vary from 12 months – 15 months.

And course fees also seem to vary considerably from school to school.

Any recommendations on any other flights schools apart from the above and info on the topic would be greatly appreciated

(Apologies if this is in the wrong forum)
quarryking is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2019, 11:37
  #560 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 291
Yes to RVAC and CAE.
Maybe MFT
No to the rest.
My personal opinion. Yes I know them all.
Kulwin Park is offline  

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