Newbie & Flying Training Advice (Merged)
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 396
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From: Currently: A landlocked country with high terrain, otherwise Melbourne, Australia + Washington D.C.
The radio and CTA and/or CTR exams are most probably in-house exams to ensure your theory is up to scratch for the grant of those endorsements. And, yes, if you're operating in and out of Jandakot, you'll automatically cover the training part of those endorsements as part of your flight training anyway. This wouldn't be the case if you were getting a RPL from a flight school operating at an uncontrolled aerodrome (at least not the CTR part) and would require further training.
Keep in mind that the PPL curriculum is just the RPL training + the navigation part. If you wish to have a licence at this mid point, then you'll have to sit the BAK and pass the flight test to obtain a RPL. With said RPL, some flight schools will let you fly the solo navs of the PPL training at the solo rate. Others will still charge you the dual rate (they claim that they're "supervising" you, hence the fee but it's mostly a sham).
If you forgo the RPL and carry on straight to the PPL, you'll save on the intermediate flight test and licence issuance fees.
Any flight school that tells you that you must do the RPL as a prerequisite for PPL is dishonest.
Do read the attached CASA flight crew licencing manual, esp. the table at §6.3.
Most of you are saying to proceed straight to PPL however my local flying school (which is the most popular choice here in Perth) presented an informational leaflet saying that there are 3 main stages 1. First solo 2. RPL 3.PPL Again just to clarify again it is most likely cheaper to go straight to PPL?
If you forgo the RPL and carry on straight to the PPL, you'll save on the intermediate flight test and licence issuance fees.
Any flight school that tells you that you must do the RPL as a prerequisite for PPL is dishonest.
Do read the attached CASA flight crew licencing manual, esp. the table at §6.3.
Joined: Feb 2017
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 545
Likes: 190
From: Sydney
You can choose which path (RPL->PPL or PPL only), further into your training if you want.
Generally schools will show costs to a RPL standard on the PPL path because you *do* have to be at the RPL skill standard at some point even if you don't do the flight test for the RPL or the exam so don't get an RPL. The training to that point is the same.
RPL == you can safely operate the aircraft as pilot in command - you need to reach this skill standard whether you obtain an actual RPL or not
PPL == you can navigate and operate in various airspace whilst flying the aircraft as pilot in command
By not getting an RPL you don't need the RPL flight test or exam.
Some people choose an RPL even if they are going to PPL because they want to take a passenger, are happy flying locally and want some tangible qualification at that point. Often they take a break in their training at this point as well.
Others just want to push through. You don't have to choose at the start.
Generally schools will show costs to a RPL standard on the PPL path because you *do* have to be at the RPL skill standard at some point even if you don't do the flight test for the RPL or the exam so don't get an RPL. The training to that point is the same.
RPL == you can safely operate the aircraft as pilot in command - you need to reach this skill standard whether you obtain an actual RPL or not
PPL == you can navigate and operate in various airspace whilst flying the aircraft as pilot in command
By not getting an RPL you don't need the RPL flight test or exam.
Some people choose an RPL even if they are going to PPL because they want to take a passenger, are happy flying locally and want some tangible qualification at that point. Often they take a break in their training at this point as well.
Others just want to push through. You don't have to choose at the start.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 602
From: Australia
That's all very true, especially the bit where you have a choice! You don't have to chose until you are at that point in your training.
Since the RPL came in five years ago only one student of mine has chosen to do it.
Also there are some schools that are still treating it like a GFPT and have not covered everything in the RPL syllabus, instead telling people that they need more and more real and imaginary endorsements to do things that the RPL syllabus covers. This is why I am reluctant to hire to RPLs.
Since the RPL came in five years ago only one student of mine has chosen to do it.
Also there are some schools that are still treating it like a GFPT and have not covered everything in the RPL syllabus, instead telling people that they need more and more real and imaginary endorsements to do things that the RPL syllabus covers. This is why I am reluctant to hire to RPLs.
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 27
Likes: 1
From: close to nowhere
Hi All,
I have been a long time reader of pprune so I am across previous posts in this thread and in the wannabe section. As an introduction, I have just turned 39, married, kids, and mortgage. I have made the decision to pursue the dream of career pilot. If you think I shouldn't chase the dream, please don't comment - I might be a stubborn fool but I have only felt regret my entire life for not doing this earlier and now I have got to the point where I can no longer tolerate not having a go. I'm not going into this blind (metaphorically or literally - Class 1 medical approved) - I understand how hard this is going to be. I have worked my way up to my RPL and am continuing flying as much as I can afford (approx. av. 1 hr per week). This translates to getting my CPL at or around 41 years old and so far I have enjoyed every minute of flying.
If anyone has any advice on how I can make myself attractive to an employer I'd value any comments or PMs to assist me. I would like to know if I should get the MECIR after CPL to make me employable or if there is a reasonable chance to secure a job with CPL only - I understand this may require moving but would prefer a FIFO or commuter job - do these exist at the CPL level? I am happy to do anything from RAAus or G3 junior instructor through to airline SO - whatever it takes.
I also flew roughly 20 hours about 15 years ago but the flying school I did this through lost my logbook (they also didn't treat me very well which is one of the reasons I didn't continue back then)- can anyone think of any way I can evidence these flying hours or have them recognised towards my CPL?
I think a cadetship is out of the question as I cannot afford to not work for 12-18 months but if there are other suggestions I am happy to listen.
All opinions and comments from seasoned professionals and starters like me are valued. If I can learn from other people's experiences then hopefully that will assist me, so thank you in advance for accepting me on this site and providing any guidance.
I have been a long time reader of pprune so I am across previous posts in this thread and in the wannabe section. As an introduction, I have just turned 39, married, kids, and mortgage. I have made the decision to pursue the dream of career pilot. If you think I shouldn't chase the dream, please don't comment - I might be a stubborn fool but I have only felt regret my entire life for not doing this earlier and now I have got to the point where I can no longer tolerate not having a go. I'm not going into this blind (metaphorically or literally - Class 1 medical approved) - I understand how hard this is going to be. I have worked my way up to my RPL and am continuing flying as much as I can afford (approx. av. 1 hr per week). This translates to getting my CPL at or around 41 years old and so far I have enjoyed every minute of flying.
If anyone has any advice on how I can make myself attractive to an employer I'd value any comments or PMs to assist me. I would like to know if I should get the MECIR after CPL to make me employable or if there is a reasonable chance to secure a job with CPL only - I understand this may require moving but would prefer a FIFO or commuter job - do these exist at the CPL level? I am happy to do anything from RAAus or G3 junior instructor through to airline SO - whatever it takes.
I also flew roughly 20 hours about 15 years ago but the flying school I did this through lost my logbook (they also didn't treat me very well which is one of the reasons I didn't continue back then)- can anyone think of any way I can evidence these flying hours or have them recognised towards my CPL?
I think a cadetship is out of the question as I cannot afford to not work for 12-18 months but if there are other suggestions I am happy to listen.
All opinions and comments from seasoned professionals and starters like me are valued. If I can learn from other people's experiences then hopefully that will assist me, so thank you in advance for accepting me on this site and providing any guidance.
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 588
Likes: 99
From: Australia
[QUOTE=Okihara; With said RPL, some flight schools will let you fly the solo navs of the PPL training at the solo rate. Others will still charge you the dual rate (they claim that they're "supervising" you, hence the fee but it's mostly a sham)..[/QUOTE]
Who checks the nav? Who authorises the nav? Who debriefs you? Who writes up your training file, Who has to answer to Airservices or CASA if you stuff up? Who has to front the coroner should the worst happen? Once you figure out the answer to that, Who should pay this person?
Who checks the nav? Who authorises the nav? Who debriefs you? Who writes up your training file, Who has to answer to Airservices or CASA if you stuff up? Who has to front the coroner should the worst happen? Once you figure out the answer to that, Who should pay this person?
Last edited by Cloudee; 15th February 2019 at 11:44.
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 107
Likes: 1
From: Perth
Toughen up, get a PPL.
To be a true pilot you must fly across Australia. Try and time it for the Avalon Airshow. You'll learn a ridiculous amount of navigation, runway selection, fuel planning and contingency skills that you will never get from a jolly around the metro area.
Better yet, do a NVFR after that too - the circuits at night, in summer, are a lot of fun, especially if you can pop the canopy (according to the POH) on your aircraft.
Doing those night circuits with minimal or constant wind down the runway - it really hones all the skills especially if you do it not long after the PPL and the cross-wind landings night-landings away-from-base are exhilarating. Black hole landings and the instrument reversion really were mentally-satisfying to me, event when the lighting went out at 100 feet AGL. Early computer gaming experience perhaps helped here? PS - Yes, that was a go-around to reactivate PAL, instructor aboard, with a crappy PAL that couldn't be reset, and lighting shutdown was known to be imminent.
To be a true pilot you must fly across Australia. Try and time it for the Avalon Airshow. You'll learn a ridiculous amount of navigation, runway selection, fuel planning and contingency skills that you will never get from a jolly around the metro area.
Better yet, do a NVFR after that too - the circuits at night, in summer, are a lot of fun, especially if you can pop the canopy (according to the POH) on your aircraft.
Doing those night circuits with minimal or constant wind down the runway - it really hones all the skills especially if you do it not long after the PPL and the cross-wind landings night-landings away-from-base are exhilarating. Black hole landings and the instrument reversion really were mentally-satisfying to me, event when the lighting went out at 100 feet AGL. Early computer gaming experience perhaps helped here? PS - Yes, that was a go-around to reactivate PAL, instructor aboard, with a crappy PAL that couldn't be reset, and lighting shutdown was known to be imminent.
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
From: The Loony Bin
Based on my personal experience... age isn't so much a factor as the three other things you mentioned in your intro... namely wife, kids and mortgage. They will impact on your "mobility" and could mean, depending on your current location, that your options for finding employment might be somewhat limited.
As for the MEIR, it really depends on what it is that you're actually trying to achieve... You say you're happy to do RAAus or instructing, but is that the end goal? or are you saying you'll do that to get to your end goal of an "airline" job? If you're going to be happy instructing, the MEIR can probably wait until you want to move onto G2 or G1 etc... If you're after a charter/RPT/airline type career, then the MEIR is probably something you should consider sooner rather than later (finances permitting). You never know when that "big break" will come along and you'll kick yourself if you miss out.
The 20 hours from earlier would have been helpful, but the missing logbook effectively means they don't exist. Why were you not keeping your own logbook?
As a pilot, your logbook is your responsibility. The only way I could think of to "find" those hours would be to track down your old instructor(s) and get the information from their logbook(s)... I take it that isn't really an option given your bad experience with the previous flying school? 
Also, one last piece of advice... make sure that your wife fully understands what is going on... be open and honest, she is likely to end up making a lot more sacrifices than you!
As for the MEIR, it really depends on what it is that you're actually trying to achieve... You say you're happy to do RAAus or instructing, but is that the end goal? or are you saying you'll do that to get to your end goal of an "airline" job? If you're going to be happy instructing, the MEIR can probably wait until you want to move onto G2 or G1 etc... If you're after a charter/RPT/airline type career, then the MEIR is probably something you should consider sooner rather than later (finances permitting). You never know when that "big break" will come along and you'll kick yourself if you miss out.
The 20 hours from earlier would have been helpful, but the missing logbook effectively means they don't exist. Why were you not keeping your own logbook?
As a pilot, your logbook is your responsibility. The only way I could think of to "find" those hours would be to track down your old instructor(s) and get the information from their logbook(s)... I take it that isn't really an option given your bad experience with the previous flying school? Also, one last piece of advice... make sure that your wife fully understands what is going on... be open and honest, she is likely to end up making a lot more sacrifices than you!
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
From: Currently: A landlocked country with high terrain, otherwise Melbourne, Australia + Washington D.C.
@Cloudee:
I was going to reply to that but then I realised that you were being utterly ironic 
(If not, please advise and I'll be happy to shoot holes in your claims)
Who checks the nav? Who authorises the nav? Who debriefs you? Who writes up your training file, Who has to answer to Airservices or CASA if you stuff up? Who has to front the coroner should the worst happen? Once you figure out the answer to that, Who should pay this person?
(If not, please advise and I'll be happy to shoot holes in your claims)
Last edited by Okihara; 15th February 2019 at 21:03.
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Sydney
Flying school costs in Australia
Hey there,
I have taken the decision to go ahead and be a commercial pilot. I am from Europe but I would like to study and then work as a pilot here in Australia.
I am on a budget, I am just basically saving most of my income to hopefully start in a couple of years. I have found some schools on google but they are more expensive than I expected.
Could anybody recommend any "budget" schools around Sydney?
I found cheaper schools in Canada with great reviews from students, I will go there if I don't find any cheap school in Australia.
Any help will be much appreciated.
Cheers
I have taken the decision to go ahead and be a commercial pilot. I am from Europe but I would like to study and then work as a pilot here in Australia.
I am on a budget, I am just basically saving most of my income to hopefully start in a couple of years. I have found some schools on google but they are more expensive than I expected.
Could anybody recommend any "budget" schools around Sydney?
I found cheaper schools in Canada with great reviews from students, I will go there if I don't find any cheap school in Australia.
Any help will be much appreciated.
Cheers
Dunnunda Fleet Manager
Joined: Jan 1996
Posts: 8,203
Likes: 887
From: Utopia
CASA regulatory costs are forcing flying schools out of business in Australia.
Pay peanuts and mostly you get monkeys.
Flying training in Canada, USA and New Zealand is - or was - all less expensive than Australia, but air fares and overseas accommodation costs may balance up the numbers somewhat.
Pay peanuts and mostly you get monkeys.
Flying training in Canada, USA and New Zealand is - or was - all less expensive than Australia, but air fares and overseas accommodation costs may balance up the numbers somewhat.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,599
Likes: 602
From: Australia
Well, I hope you never become an instructor because the idea that all that responsibility should be done for nothing is the reason instructor wages are so rubbish.
Some places have a "supervised solo" rate, somewhere between hire and dual, to cover the wages of the supervising instructor.
Meanwhile there are places charging a fortune for pre-flight briefings, how much of that does the instructor get?
Some places have a "supervised solo" rate, somewhere between hire and dual, to cover the wages of the supervising instructor.
Meanwhile there are places charging a fortune for pre-flight briefings, how much of that does the instructor get?
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 1
From: sydney
USA about half what it will cost you in Australia. Pretty much the same in NZ with some fantastic scenery to fly over.
In either country hassle free, unlike Australia. We took the best of British bureaucracy and refined it into an art form with aviation.
In either country hassle free, unlike Australia. We took the best of British bureaucracy and refined it into an art form with aviation.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 793
Likes: 297
From: sierra village
No question. Go to the USA. There are flying schools which also offer some kind of a job after you get your CPL, albeit at wages below the poverty line, to help you get your first 1000 hours. Better still in the USA do an aviation degree which includes a FAA CPL. US airlines do like their college degrees.
Bluntly, don’t waste your time or money in Australia - there is no future here for aviation.
Bluntly, don’t waste your time or money in Australia - there is no future here for aviation.
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: Sydney
Low hour volunteer GA pilot jobs sydney
Hi all fresh out of flight school and am eager to start looking for a job, willing to do volunteer GA flying within Sydney appreciate some help or ideas for job hunting especially with such a large community pilot base here on PPRuNE!
My qualifiactions are: 220 hours flight with a muilti-engine command instrument rating, commercial pilot license and ATPL theory
My qualifiactions are: 220 hours flight with a muilti-engine command instrument rating, commercial pilot license and ATPL theory
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,216
Likes: 1
From: back to the land of small pay and big bills
Don’t look for ‘cheap’ schools either..look for best value for money. The best way to get your money off you is to give you bad training, so you take twice as long to learn.
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: USA
Just to give you a little of my personal experience.
I'm an Australian that left for the USA to specifically flight train around 7 years ago after realizing the cost was piling up after working on my GFPT. The training was cheaper, more laid back, a huge variety of flying and an amazing infrastructure to fly in also. Opportunities for career progression are plentiful at all levels here also if you decide to stay.
Good luck with your training!
I'm an Australian that left for the USA to specifically flight train around 7 years ago after realizing the cost was piling up after working on my GFPT. The training was cheaper, more laid back, a huge variety of flying and an amazing infrastructure to fly in also. Opportunities for career progression are plentiful at all levels here also if you decide to stay.
Good luck with your training!
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: Perth
I understand that you want to work here in Australia. However, is that work and live forever? Are your friends / family mainly in Europe?
What I'm getting to is figuring our where you want to fly is a very important question - long term.
Should you decide to work in Australia and move back to Europe then you have relocation costs. Your CASA license will need to be converted to an EASA license - same if you want to train in Canada or the US. Regardless of when you will relocate, costs will be associated with conversions. Not to mention the time involved in relocating and studying for the conversion exams.
You avoid those by going - here's were I want to fly and live for the rest of my flying career. Wherever that may be, get your license there, look for work there and fly there. Opportunities are everywhere but are only seen by those putting an effort in to look for them.
Clare Prop's point is a deal break - you can't work here if you do not have the legal right. No point in trying to get a sponsorship post training, that won't work. You need to get that sorted prior to commencing training. If residency is not an issue, then you're over one 1 hurdle.
It sounds like your in the planning stage and don't expect to be training in a few years time. Take this time to study theory of whichever license you're endeavour to get. Study now whilst you can as it will make the training easier when that happens - you can buy all the books online.
Remember a review is just a person's point of view. It's human nature to have different points of views. What might work for one might not work for another. No point in investing your money and time in a school based on someone's point of view. You need to determine whether it is right for you. If that means paying them a visit then so be it. You'll be thankful in putting down $2k for a flight and a visit to them and realising it's not for you or putting down $100k when the time comes and it does not work due to the school.
Lastly, don't try and budget this - wherever you will go, training costs money. It's your responsibility to make sure there is a return on your investment, in the form of a career.
I wish you well.
What I'm getting to is figuring our where you want to fly is a very important question - long term.
Should you decide to work in Australia and move back to Europe then you have relocation costs. Your CASA license will need to be converted to an EASA license - same if you want to train in Canada or the US. Regardless of when you will relocate, costs will be associated with conversions. Not to mention the time involved in relocating and studying for the conversion exams.
You avoid those by going - here's were I want to fly and live for the rest of my flying career. Wherever that may be, get your license there, look for work there and fly there. Opportunities are everywhere but are only seen by those putting an effort in to look for them.
Clare Prop's point is a deal break - you can't work here if you do not have the legal right. No point in trying to get a sponsorship post training, that won't work. You need to get that sorted prior to commencing training. If residency is not an issue, then you're over one 1 hurdle.
It sounds like your in the planning stage and don't expect to be training in a few years time. Take this time to study theory of whichever license you're endeavour to get. Study now whilst you can as it will make the training easier when that happens - you can buy all the books online.
Remember a review is just a person's point of view. It's human nature to have different points of views. What might work for one might not work for another. No point in investing your money and time in a school based on someone's point of view. You need to determine whether it is right for you. If that means paying them a visit then so be it. You'll be thankful in putting down $2k for a flight and a visit to them and realising it's not for you or putting down $100k when the time comes and it does not work due to the school.
Lastly, don't try and budget this - wherever you will go, training costs money. It's your responsibility to make sure there is a return on your investment, in the form of a career.
I wish you well.