Newbie & Flying Training Advice (Merged)

[jonkster]

Originally Posted by ChaeBaee

My understanding is that with an RPL you're allowed to carry "more than one passenger if you have a casa class 1 or 2 cert" as quoted however with a PPl you're capped at a max of 5? How does that work?

I was not aware of any specific restriction on the number of passengers for private pilots. Where did you see the 5 pax limit? Possible I may have missed something in the regs.

Originally Posted by ChaeBaee

With RPL there is an endorsement for operating a flight radio however to my understanding isn't using a flight radio part of training; talking to the tower requesting take off etc.

If you fly where radio is not required you do not have to have the endorsement.

Originally Posted by ChaeBaee

With the 25nm restriction for RPL, it includes rottness island which has an airport. Certain forums have said that if I get a PPl im allowed to land at airports other than the one i depart from, is this not the same for RPL? (Wanting to fly to rottness island and come back)

I believe if the aerodromes are within 25nm you can fly between them.

I don't think that was the intent of the RPL (it was meant as a replacement for the GFPT and before that the Restricted Licence, that allowed you to fly between an aerodrome and its associated training area) but I think with the new wording there is nothing that specifically states you have to land at your departure aerodrome. May be wrong though.

Originally Posted by ChaeBaee

Lastly, I was considering obtaining an RPL due to the fact that I most likely will not be flying very far and not at night. However, the 25nm radius restriction seems abit too tight.

The idea is an RPL knows how to fly the aircraft. They have not however been trained to navigate at the same time as flying the aircraft.

For that reason they are restricted to flying in the vicinity of their departure point, to avoid getting themselves lost.

Originally Posted by ChaeBaee

Casa websites tells me that if i get a nav endorsement that restriction will be lifted off however after reading a few forums they have all along the lines said that at that point you would might as well get a PPL. Why is that? For reference purposes, RPL cost around 7k while PPL cost around 16k. Is the nav endorsement that expensive?

Typically navigation training involves around 9 flights (including 2 supervised solo flights) of increasing complexity, averaging several hours in duration. You typically will add around 30 hours of flight time to your log book. That is why the cost.

With a PPL you are entitled to carry passengers, operate in controlled airspace and at controlled aerodromes (basically you can fly anywhere in Australia and potentially overseas).

[Okihara]

- RPL you can fly an aircraft up to 1500kg vs PPL you can fly up to 5000kg

There is a MTOW restriction for the RPL but there is no such limitation for PPL. I believe there must have been one in the former versions of the regulations and the idea that PPL holders are limited to flying aircraft with an MTOW of 5700 kg is still being circulated but there is no such limit in the current ones.

As demid wrote, the limiting factor will most probably be the MTOW of your wallet. Most private operations involving a pilot and their mates will involve some form of cost sharing, in which case there is an explicit mention of 6 occupants, ie. the pilot + 5 passengers. Incidentally the wording says "sharing the costs equally". While it is a certainty that a private pilot may make no profit from the operation, no provision seems to be made for passengers wishing to just "chip in" and not sharing costs equally.

@ChaeBaee:
If money is a concern and hence making you consider the RPL + all endorsements, my advice is to consider this alternative: just skip the RPL and all those endorsements altogether and go straight for the PPL. As a RPL is no prerequisite for a PPL (as some schools would wrongly have you think – or are just happy to keep you confused), you can embark on the PPL right away. The syllabus up until navigations will be the same anyway but the good news is, you'll also just sit a single CASA exam (PPLA instead of RPLA). You'll cover the training of those radio, CTA/CTR, and navigation endorsements as part of the PPL training. If you add everything up, you'll find that going for PPL straightaway may take you a little longer to act as PIC but won't leave you much poorer and certainly will give you many more privileges.

Also worth noting: unless you're going to fly in your own aircraft, I found people reluctant to hire out to RPL holders. I can't blame them. The R in RPL means just that, you're a recreational pilot. Most will also ask for at least a PPL plus minimum time on type. Obviously you should always be able to hire from the school you trained with but that's a bit restrictive and schools charge you a fortune on VDO time. If you're flying out of a larger aerodrome, say YPJT, reach out to LAMEs. They often have a couple of airplanes that they're happy to hire out on flight switch at much, much lower hourly rates.

[Clare Prop]

My advice is to go straight through to PPL rather than mess around with an RPL and all those endorsements. There is no requirement to do an RPL and it gives you no exemptions when you do a PPL. If the school insists on it, shop around.

[Okihara]

The radio and CTA and/or CTR exams are most probably in-house exams to ensure your theory is up to scratch for the grant of those endorsements. And, yes, if you're operating in and out of Jandakot, you'll automatically cover the training part of those endorsements as part of your flight training anyway. This wouldn't be the case if you were getting a RPL from a flight school operating at an uncontrolled aerodrome (at least not the CTR part) and would require further training.

Most of you are saying to proceed straight to PPL however my local flying school (which is the most popular choice here in Perth) presented an informational leaflet saying that there are 3 main stages 1. First solo 2. RPL 3.PPL Again just to clarify again it is most likely cheaper to go straight to PPL?

Keep in mind that the PPL curriculum is just the RPL training + the navigation part. If you wish to have a licence at this mid point, then you'll have to sit the BAK and pass the flight test to obtain a RPL. With said RPL, some flight schools will let you fly the solo navs of the PPL training at the solo rate. Others will still charge you the dual rate (they claim that they're "supervising" you, hence the fee but it's mostly a sham).

If you forgo the RPL and carry on straight to the PPL, you'll save on the intermediate flight test and licence issuance fees.

Any flight school that tells you that you must do the RPL as a prerequisite for PPL is dishonest.

Do read the attached CASA flight crew licencing manual, esp. the table at §6.3.

[jonkster]

You can choose which path (RPL->PPL or PPL only), further into your training if you want.

Generally schools will show costs to a RPL standard on the PPL path because you *do* have to be at the RPL skill standard at some point even if you don't do the flight test for the RPL or the exam so don't get an RPL. The training to that point is the same.

RPL == you can safely operate the aircraft as pilot in command - you need to reach this skill standard whether you obtain an actual RPL or not
PPL == you can navigate and operate in various airspace whilst flying the aircraft as pilot in command

By not getting an RPL you don't need the RPL flight test or exam.

Some people choose an RPL even if they are going to PPL because they want to take a passenger, are happy flying locally and want some tangible qualification at that point. Often they take a break in their training at this point as well.

Others just want to push through. You don't have to choose at the start.

[Clare Prop]

That's all very true, especially the bit where you have a choice! You don't have to chose until you are at that point in your training.

Since the RPL came in five years ago only one student of mine has chosen to do it.

Also there are some schools that are still treating it like a GFPT and have not covered everything in the RPL syllabus, instead telling people that they need more and more real and imaginary endorsements to do things that the RPL syllabus covers. This is why I am reluctant to hire to RPLs.

[TempoTCu]

Hi All,

I have been a long time reader of pprune so I am across previous posts in this thread and in the wannabe section. As an introduction, I have just turned 39, married, kids, and mortgage. I have made the decision to pursue the dream of career pilot. If you think I shouldn't chase the dream, please don't comment - I might be a stubborn fool but I have only felt regret my entire life for not doing this earlier and now I have got to the point where I can no longer tolerate not having a go. I'm not going into this blind (metaphorically or literally - Class 1 medical approved) - I understand how hard this is going to be. I have worked my way up to my RPL and am continuing flying as much as I can afford (approx. av. 1 hr per week). This translates to getting my CPL at or around 41 years old and so far I have enjoyed every minute of flying.

If anyone has any advice on how I can make myself attractive to an employer I'd value any comments or PMs to assist me. I would like to know if I should get the MECIR after CPL to make me employable or if there is a reasonable chance to secure a job with CPL only - I understand this may require moving but would prefer a FIFO or commuter job - do these exist at the CPL level? I am happy to do anything from RAAus or G3 junior instructor through to airline SO - whatever it takes.

I also flew roughly 20 hours about 15 years ago but the flying school I did this through lost my logbook (they also didn't treat me very well which is one of the reasons I didn't continue back then)- can anyone think of any way I can evidence these flying hours or have them recognised towards my CPL?

I think a cadetship is out of the question as I cannot afford to not work for 12-18 months but if there are other suggestions I am happy to listen.

All opinions and comments from seasoned professionals and starters like me are valued. If I can learn from other people's experiences then hopefully that will assist me, so thank you in advance for accepting me on this site and providing any guidance.

[Cloudee]

[QUOTE=Okihara; With said RPL, some flight schools will let you fly the solo navs of the PPL training at the solo rate. Others will still charge you the dual rate (they claim that they're "supervising" you, hence the fee but it's mostly a sham)..[/QUOTE]


Who checks the nav? Who authorises the nav? Who debriefs you? Who writes up your training file, Who has to answer to Airservices or CASA if you stuff up? Who has to front the coroner should the worst happen? Once you figure out the answer to that, Who should pay this person?

[AbsoluteFokker]

Toughen up, get a PPL.

To be a true pilot you must fly across Australia. Try and time it for the Avalon Airshow. You'll learn a ridiculous amount of navigation, runway selection, fuel planning and contingency skills that you will never get from a jolly around the metro area.

Better yet, do a NVFR after that too - the circuits at night, in summer, are a lot of fun, especially if you can pop the canopy (according to the POH) on your aircraft.

Doing those night circuits with minimal or constant wind down the runway - it really hones all the skills especially if you do it not long after the PPL and the cross-wind landings night-landings away-from-base are exhilarating. Black hole landings and the instrument reversion really were mentally-satisfying to me, event when the lighting went out at 100 feet AGL. Early computer gaming experience perhaps helped here? PS - Yes, that was a go-around to reactivate PAL, instructor aboard, with a crappy PAL that couldn't be reset, and lighting shutdown was known to be imminent.

[RHSandLovingIt]

Based on my personal experience... age isn't so much a factor as the three other things you mentioned in your intro... namely wife, kids and mortgage. They will impact on your "mobility" and could mean, depending on your current location, that your options for finding employment might be somewhat limited.

As for the MEIR, it really depends on what it is that you're actually trying to achieve... You say you're happy to do RAAus or instructing, but is that the end goal? or are you saying you'll do that to get to your end goal of an "airline" job? If you're going to be happy instructing, the MEIR can probably wait until you want to move onto G2 or G1 etc... If you're after a charter/RPT/airline type career, then the MEIR is probably something you should consider sooner rather than later (finances permitting). You never know when that "big break" will come along and you'll kick yourself if you miss out.

The 20 hours from earlier would have been helpful, but the missing logbook effectively means they don't exist. Why were you not keeping your own logbook? As a pilot, your logbook is your responsibility. The only way I could think of to "find" those hours would be to track down your old instructor(s) and get the information from their logbook(s)... I take it that isn't really an option given your bad experience with the previous flying school?


Also, one last piece of advice... make sure that your wife fully understands what is going on... be open and honest, she is likely to end up making a lot more sacrifices than you!

[Okihara]

@Cloudee:

Originally Posted by Cloudee

Who checks the nav? Who authorises the nav? Who debriefs you? Who writes up your training file, Who has to answer to Airservices or CASA if you stuff up? Who has to front the coroner should the worst happen? Once you figure out the answer to that, Who should pay this person?

I was going to reply to that but then I realised that you were being utterly ironic

(If not, please advise and I'll be happy to shoot holes in your claims)

[Ray_]

Flying school costs in Australia

Hey there,

I have taken the decision to go ahead and be a commercial pilot. I am from Europe but I would like to study and then work as a pilot here in Australia.

I am on a budget, I am just basically saving most of my income to hopefully start in a couple of years. I have found some schools on google but they are more expensive than I expected.

Could anybody recommend any "budget" schools around Sydney?

I found cheaper schools in Canada with great reviews from students, I will go there if I don't find any cheap school in Australia.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Cheers

[jonkster]

Being responsible for a student on their solo nav flights is not something I take lightly.

I would not be on my lonesome.

[tail wheel]

CASA regulatory costs are forcing flying schools out of business in Australia.

Pay peanuts and mostly you get monkeys.

Flying training in Canada, USA and New Zealand is - or was - all less expensive than Australia, but air fares and overseas accommodation costs may balance up the numbers somewhat.

[Clare Prop]

Well, I hope you never become an instructor because the idea that all that responsibility should be done for nothing is the reason instructor wages are so rubbish.
Some places have a "supervised solo" rate, somewhere between hire and dual, to cover the wages of the supervising instructor.
Meanwhile there are places charging a fortune for pre-flight briefings, how much of that does the instructor get?

[Clare Prop]

No point getting an Australian CPL without having residency or citizenship.

Best to come here, do the PPL and build hours, then go back to Europe to do the modular CPL there.

[thorn bird]

USA about half what it will cost you in Australia. Pretty much the same in NZ with some fantastic scenery to fly over.
In either country hassle free, unlike Australia. We took the best of British bureaucracy and refined it into an art form with aviation.

[lucille]

No question. Go to the USA. There are flying schools which also offer some kind of a job after you get your CPL, albeit at wages below the poverty line, to help you get your first 1000 hours. Better still in the USA do an aviation degree which includes a FAA CPL. US airlines do like their college degrees.

Bluntly, don’t waste your time or money in Australia - there is no future here for aviation.

[B777lover]

Low hour volunteer GA pilot jobs sydney

Hi all fresh out of flight school and am eager to start looking for a job, willing to do volunteer GA flying within Sydney appreciate some help or ideas for job hunting especially with such a large community pilot base here on PPRuNE!
My qualifiactions are: 220 hours flight with a muilti-engine command instrument rating, commercial pilot license and ATPL theory

[mattyj]

Don’t look for ‘cheap’ schools either..look for best value for money. The best way to get your money off you is to give you bad training, so you take twice as long to learn.