Reasonable Career expectations..
Thread Starter
Reasonable Career expectations..
Hi guys,
Would be interested in any and all opinions that you may have.
Have finished my CPL, and will have the last ATPL subject and MECIR done shortly. Will have 300 hrs at that stage, however my next birthday will be my 40th.
So- almost to the next stage of getting that first job (we don't have kids and have the House paid off- so I can be flexible and mobile in regards to looking for work). Will be setting course for the north west- Kimberley region to get the first job.
I want to fly for a living because I love flying- that is purely my motivation for doing this. I currently work in Flight Operations/ Dispatch for a major Australian Airline and am only too aware that even flying Jets becomes just a job for most people after the "honeymoon" period ends. I'm not getting in to it for the perceived money or glamour because, let's face it, getting up at 3.30am after 4 days isn't. And given my current position in Flight Ops, I'm only too aware of the fact that Management will continue to try to find new ways to drive down overall T's & C's (unless the supply v's demand equation drastically changes).
So I'd be curious to know, based on where I'm at now and my circumstances- what can I realistically aspire to in the years ahead? I'd like to think that I have enough years left in me to have the earnings potential to enjoy a half decent quality of life and plan for eventual retirement.
Would:
- Flying Twins in GA,
- Regional Turboprop FO,
- Regional Turboprop Captain,
- Low Cost Jet FO, Or;
- Low Cost Jet Captain
Be what I could realistically try to plan for in the years ahead?
Looking forward to your thoughts.
Cheers,
Gearup.
Would be interested in any and all opinions that you may have.
Have finished my CPL, and will have the last ATPL subject and MECIR done shortly. Will have 300 hrs at that stage, however my next birthday will be my 40th.
So- almost to the next stage of getting that first job (we don't have kids and have the House paid off- so I can be flexible and mobile in regards to looking for work). Will be setting course for the north west- Kimberley region to get the first job.
I want to fly for a living because I love flying- that is purely my motivation for doing this. I currently work in Flight Operations/ Dispatch for a major Australian Airline and am only too aware that even flying Jets becomes just a job for most people after the "honeymoon" period ends. I'm not getting in to it for the perceived money or glamour because, let's face it, getting up at 3.30am after 4 days isn't. And given my current position in Flight Ops, I'm only too aware of the fact that Management will continue to try to find new ways to drive down overall T's & C's (unless the supply v's demand equation drastically changes).
So I'd be curious to know, based on where I'm at now and my circumstances- what can I realistically aspire to in the years ahead? I'd like to think that I have enough years left in me to have the earnings potential to enjoy a half decent quality of life and plan for eventual retirement.
Would:
- Flying Twins in GA,
- Regional Turboprop FO,
- Regional Turboprop Captain,
- Low Cost Jet FO, Or;
- Low Cost Jet Captain
Be what I could realistically try to plan for in the years ahead?
Looking forward to your thoughts.
Cheers,
Gearup.
Last edited by Gearupandorrf; 3rd Jul 2013 at 10:51.
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After you get a couple thousand hours (maybe even less?) you'd be in with a good shot at the regionals, not sure about the majors though, but you never know. I know a few guys who started in their late 30's/early 40's, took the flight instructor path, got a decent amount of hours and got into the regionals. One is even a training captain now. Good luck with it all.
You can fly jets domestically beyond 60, and a significant number do.
That gives you at least 2 full decades in the industry, more than enough time to make to a command on a wide body jet that probably doesn't even exist yet, and on the way ride the ups and down of a career, spending patches unemployed through times thick and thin.
Many of my crowd went from begging for a C206 job to narrow body jet command in 10 years, and that was including some very lean years including 2001. No reason why you can't do that too.
Flexibility, willingness to relocate and a supportive partner will help massively.
That gives you at least 2 full decades in the industry, more than enough time to make to a command on a wide body jet that probably doesn't even exist yet, and on the way ride the ups and down of a career, spending patches unemployed through times thick and thin.
Many of my crowd went from begging for a C206 job to narrow body jet command in 10 years, and that was including some very lean years including 2001. No reason why you can't do that too.
Flexibility, willingness to relocate and a supportive partner will help massively.
The world is still your oyster.
Of course the first 500-1000 yours are the hardest to get in the book. Options in GA are quite limited nowadays. Shoot out resumes to EVERY passenger charter/ freight charter/parachute dropping/cattle mustering/freight running/patient moving/fire spotting/aerial photography/scenic touring/mine running/bank running mob you can get the contact details for.
My first two GA jobs we just a case of being in the right place at the right time.
Finally, don't underestimate the ADVANTAGE your age will have on some prospective employers. If the left seat of a High performance turboprop is your cup of tea, it might be a good fit. There are many variables in life and aviation...and 5 year is a LONG time! Good luck.
It's nice to see a thread like this pop up every once and a while to put things in perspective.
Hope we can all behave. Cue spelling police and grammar nazi's
Of course the first 500-1000 yours are the hardest to get in the book. Options in GA are quite limited nowadays. Shoot out resumes to EVERY passenger charter/ freight charter/parachute dropping/cattle mustering/freight running/patient moving/fire spotting/aerial photography/scenic touring/mine running/bank running mob you can get the contact details for.
My first two GA jobs we just a case of being in the right place at the right time.
Finally, don't underestimate the ADVANTAGE your age will have on some prospective employers. If the left seat of a High performance turboprop is your cup of tea, it might be a good fit. There are many variables in life and aviation...and 5 year is a LONG time! Good luck.
It's nice to see a thread like this pop up every once and a while to put things in perspective.
Hope we can all behave. Cue spelling police and grammar nazi's
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no limits
Aim as high as you wish.
The drive you have shown undertaking the training is right. The exposure to the industry given by your current employment, should allow for some networking-use it.
Once you get your first job, enjoy it and with the next one enjoy etc etc. With every opportunity keep your standards high, don't get slack and take too many short cuts-be disciplined.
Do not worry about your age, do not even think about it except to get spoilt on your birthday. Aim for what ever you want to achieve, only you and the economy can affect the outcomes. Have a go it is better to die trying (yeah thats a bit extreme but you get the idea).
The ace of the base can be just that and they are everywhere,so ride low in the saddle and in the middle of the posse.
oh and something else you have in your favour- a supportive partner, don't forget !!!!
you are already half way to wherever it is you are going. Have fun,
The drive you have shown undertaking the training is right. The exposure to the industry given by your current employment, should allow for some networking-use it.
Once you get your first job, enjoy it and with the next one enjoy etc etc. With every opportunity keep your standards high, don't get slack and take too many short cuts-be disciplined.
Do not worry about your age, do not even think about it except to get spoilt on your birthday. Aim for what ever you want to achieve, only you and the economy can affect the outcomes. Have a go it is better to die trying (yeah thats a bit extreme but you get the idea).
The ace of the base can be just that and they are everywhere,so ride low in the saddle and in the middle of the posse.
oh and something else you have in your favour- a supportive partner, don't forget !!!!
you are already half way to wherever it is you are going. Have fun,
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I believe you could end up being in any of those positions you listed. I would suggest you set your goals on something realistic, say regional captain, and you may well end up going further!
Remember aviation is a highly cyclical industry. Everyone seems to have their ups and downs along the way. I'm still in my twenties, but when I started, I had to fund my own training which meant full time work, uni and flying at the same time. For this reason it took 5 years to finish my training, which looking back now was a long time. It didn't help that flying schools kept shutting down or instructors were useless or the wettest summer in history would arrive when I'd organised annual leave to fly... There always seemed to be some hurdle to jump. But I still loved the journey.
Funnily enough things suddenly turned around for me. I went from GA to international widebody F/O in only a few years. You could be the same!
If you love doing it, you'll always be happy. Good luck!
Remember aviation is a highly cyclical industry. Everyone seems to have their ups and downs along the way. I'm still in my twenties, but when I started, I had to fund my own training which meant full time work, uni and flying at the same time. For this reason it took 5 years to finish my training, which looking back now was a long time. It didn't help that flying schools kept shutting down or instructors were useless or the wettest summer in history would arrive when I'd organised annual leave to fly... There always seemed to be some hurdle to jump. But I still loved the journey.
Funnily enough things suddenly turned around for me. I went from GA to international widebody F/O in only a few years. You could be the same!
If you love doing it, you'll always be happy. Good luck!
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Aim high please....
I agree that this much positivity is rarely shown on PPRuNe and as such I have posted (normally I would not under any circumstances).... I have just achieved my first 'real' interview with Air NZ on their domestic turboprop carriers. I am soon to pass a significant milestone in age terms and like many out there have taken anything I can, mostly charter work overseas and instructing at home whilst balancing a family life and earning a crust.
As my own instructor's/mentors point out to me, your positivity and keen attitude are what will get you noticed and likely employed. I also heartily agree with the 'advantage' your years will provide you, life experience is a great asset. You have more going for you than you may realise and I for one am always very pleased when a senior crew flies me from A to B. The 'grey haired' ones probably have forgotten more about aviation than you will ever know and learning from these individuals is one of the best things you can do should the opportunity arise.
Oh, for the record you are not too old, I know someone who learn't the 737 in his sixties.....successfully....
Apologies for any upsets the post may cause, it is not my wish to offend as I believe we all have something to offer.
As my own instructor's/mentors point out to me, your positivity and keen attitude are what will get you noticed and likely employed. I also heartily agree with the 'advantage' your years will provide you, life experience is a great asset. You have more going for you than you may realise and I for one am always very pleased when a senior crew flies me from A to B. The 'grey haired' ones probably have forgotten more about aviation than you will ever know and learning from these individuals is one of the best things you can do should the opportunity arise.
Oh, for the record you are not too old, I know someone who learn't the 737 in his sixties.....successfully....
Apologies for any upsets the post may cause, it is not my wish to offend as I believe we all have something to offer.
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Seeing someone head to the Kimberley in July, just breaks my heart. With the demise of a few operators, it's hard to get a job out there at the best of times, let alone now, and half-way throughout the season.
Depends much on the industry and being the right place at the right time with the right hours. Flying a jet is very realistic if you're happy to do charter as a career. Jobs like cobham and alliance would be realistic.
Some of the projections on here are a bit unrealitic took most guys I knew around 8-10 years to get into a jet somewhere. Very few people in Australia will get into jets after a year or two in GA unless you are a second officer in QF. You will need to bust out of GA in a hurry.
I assume that is for a foreign carrier? The minmums in Australia for that job alone would be nigh impossible in that time frame.
Some of the projections on here are a bit unrealitic took most guys I knew around 8-10 years to get into a jet somewhere. Very few people in Australia will get into jets after a year or two in GA unless you are a second officer in QF. You will need to bust out of GA in a hurry.
Funnily enough things suddenly turned around for me. I went from GA to international widebody F/O in only a few years. You could be the same!
Last edited by neville_nobody; 2nd Jul 2013 at 14:54.
Starting at the end of 1989, I was:
2.5 years a flying instructor
1.5 years a GA freight pilot (bank runs)
6.5 years an Ansett FO
2 years unemployed (retraining, emigrating and some pub jobs)
1.5 years a European airline FO
8 years a European airline Captain.
2.5 years a flying instructor
1.5 years a GA freight pilot (bank runs)
6.5 years an Ansett FO
2 years unemployed (retraining, emigrating and some pub jobs)
1.5 years a European airline FO
8 years a European airline Captain.
Last edited by Checkboard; 2nd Jul 2013 at 20:41.
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As an example over here in NZ, Air NZ are actively recruiting pilots for their Regional operations (ATR, Q300, B1900).
Minimums have reduced significantly for all fleets over the last couple of years and it would be worth having a look on the careers link supplied on the Air NZ website. Being an Australian I'm assuming you'll have the right to work in NZ if that is something that rocked your boat. Good luck.
Minimums have reduced significantly for all fleets over the last couple of years and it would be worth having a look on the careers link supplied on the Air NZ website. Being an Australian I'm assuming you'll have the right to work in NZ if that is something that rocked your boat. Good luck.
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I hate to say it, or too sound in anyway insensitive or arrogant, but the way forward is pure hard work and determination.
Remember the old saying? ''the harder I work, the luckier I get'' and that is what it boils down too.
Door knock, get in front of people, be that person they think of, yes you are a little bit older, but you are also wiser, more experienced in life and I would assume that you have a more mature outlook.
Airline flying for most of us is more of a job now than a vocation (I fly a glider now when I want to actually fly) so set your sights where you think you can achieve a good income and as suitable lifestyle for you and your nearest and dearest.
Most importantly...remain focused, remain committed, and remain enthusiastic.
Remember the old saying? ''the harder I work, the luckier I get'' and that is what it boils down too.
Door knock, get in front of people, be that person they think of, yes you are a little bit older, but you are also wiser, more experienced in life and I would assume that you have a more mature outlook.
Airline flying for most of us is more of a job now than a vocation (I fly a glider now when I want to actually fly) so set your sights where you think you can achieve a good income and as suitable lifestyle for you and your nearest and dearest.
Most importantly...remain focused, remain committed, and remain enthusiastic.
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Factor in that you many have to rebuild your career at some time during the future. Airline companies have a habit of going out of business occasionally.
1) from 1986, 5 years in GA.
2) 10.5 years as a FO at Ansett
3) hospital orderly for 11 months with 8500 hrs including 4500 hrs on jets. 85 resumes sent with 4 responses.the 4th one being a "yes".
4)contract FO overseas for 2 years.
5) 2.5 years as FO with a regional turbo-prop operator.
6) 2 years as a jet captain with a charter company.
7) last 4 years as a FO at Virgin.
Currently I am building my career path to being a jet captain for the 3rd time. Some have a dream run thru their career, I am not one of them. what I thought would be "reasonable career expectations" have been circumvented by economic circumstances and the seniority system. How your career will unfold is a mystery.
The only thing that you can control is how you respond to the slings and arrows of fortune. If you can be prepared to get back up the mat time and time again, maybe you'll have some good memories and stories for retirement. Remember that of the 830 pilots at Ansett, only 550 were in flying jobs 5 years later.
Best of luck, whatever you choose
1) from 1986, 5 years in GA.
2) 10.5 years as a FO at Ansett
3) hospital orderly for 11 months with 8500 hrs including 4500 hrs on jets. 85 resumes sent with 4 responses.the 4th one being a "yes".
4)contract FO overseas for 2 years.
5) 2.5 years as FO with a regional turbo-prop operator.
6) 2 years as a jet captain with a charter company.
7) last 4 years as a FO at Virgin.
Currently I am building my career path to being a jet captain for the 3rd time. Some have a dream run thru their career, I am not one of them. what I thought would be "reasonable career expectations" have been circumvented by economic circumstances and the seniority system. How your career will unfold is a mystery.
The only thing that you can control is how you respond to the slings and arrows of fortune. If you can be prepared to get back up the mat time and time again, maybe you'll have some good memories and stories for retirement. Remember that of the 830 pilots at Ansett, only 550 were in flying jobs 5 years later.
Best of luck, whatever you choose
I admire your spirit 'Anthill' you are exactly what this business is all about. It is not an easy road, or one for the faint hearted. Took me 20 years to first Jet Command. It has always been an Industry Standard to be in GA for five years and then an F/O for ten. Exceptional circumstances have made the break for many over the years but under normal times, it's a long slog.
Go overseas is my advice. Australia is now considered a backwater with little movement. Look at Qantas and their promotional prospects. Best thing I ever did was to go off-shore. Best eleven years of my life, good money, low tax and saw the world. It's quiet out there at the moment but it will pick up again.
Good luck to you 'Gearupandorff', welcome to the nut-house.
Go overseas is my advice. Australia is now considered a backwater with little movement. Look at Qantas and their promotional prospects. Best thing I ever did was to go off-shore. Best eleven years of my life, good money, low tax and saw the world. It's quiet out there at the moment but it will pick up again.
Good luck to you 'Gearupandorff', welcome to the nut-house.
Where abouts overseas? From what I've read America isn't worth it with terrible pay and conditions and no jobs in the uk. Could be way off the mark though
America has never really been an option, Green Card issues and too many of their own out of work in recent years.
Asia and the Middle East are recruiting. It's easier if you have Command time, that has always been the case. LCC's are taking low-time pilots.
I met a young Indian pilot in Singapore two years ago. His Dad was a taxi driver who took me to work several times and introduced me in the hope of helping his son get a leg up. He had just completed a 'jam factory' course in New Zealand and had only a bare Licence. In the last year he has studied hard, converted it to a Singapore Licence and just got a go with Tiger Asia. All he needs now is a couple of years of Jet time and he'll be away. They have no GA up there, so they have an added disadvantage.
Korean and various Chinese Airlines are recruiting now. Again, things are quiet at the moment, SQ has dumped all it's expats and the 'Doom and Gloom' merchants are having a field day. It will come back, be ready and give it a go.
Coming home to Australia, for me, has been a huge disappointment, so much bull-**** from CASA, GA is dead, ATC is a joke and the whole country is full of tattooed Bogans (and that's just the women).
Asia and the Middle East are recruiting. It's easier if you have Command time, that has always been the case. LCC's are taking low-time pilots.
I met a young Indian pilot in Singapore two years ago. His Dad was a taxi driver who took me to work several times and introduced me in the hope of helping his son get a leg up. He had just completed a 'jam factory' course in New Zealand and had only a bare Licence. In the last year he has studied hard, converted it to a Singapore Licence and just got a go with Tiger Asia. All he needs now is a couple of years of Jet time and he'll be away. They have no GA up there, so they have an added disadvantage.
Korean and various Chinese Airlines are recruiting now. Again, things are quiet at the moment, SQ has dumped all it's expats and the 'Doom and Gloom' merchants are having a field day. It will come back, be ready and give it a go.
Coming home to Australia, for me, has been a huge disappointment, so much bull-**** from CASA, GA is dead, ATC is a joke and the whole country is full of tattooed Bogans (and that's just the women).
Last edited by By George; 3rd Jul 2013 at 08:08.