Family building own airport in QLD
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Grog monster, my very fine friend. You are of course correct, there is nothing wrong with making money. Your other assumption is incorrect. I am on leave.
My point remains; the Wagners proposal is entirely dependent upon taking resources away from defence, and relies upon CASA to sort out the issues with the placement of the airfield.
Congratulations on being part of private enterprise, by the way. Your opinion is no more valid than mine by virtue of the fact you serve yourself, while I serve our country.
Jabawocky, you may be right. Mr Wagner is head of the local business enterprise group after all.
My point remains; the Wagners proposal is entirely dependent upon taking resources away from defence, and relies upon CASA to sort out the issues with the placement of the airfield.
Congratulations on being part of private enterprise, by the way. Your opinion is no more valid than mine by virtue of the fact you serve yourself, while I serve our country.
Jabawocky, you may be right. Mr Wagner is head of the local business enterprise group after all.
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And he probably is thinking of the community and its best interests too.
Not all business folk are take take take.
As for those of us in private business we don't just serve ourselves, half my week is serving many others, and a lot of us do this for nothing in return.
A slight correction based on my opinion so it may be challenged and overturned but the only people who serve the country are those in the ADF. The politicians and public servants and those who work for government enterprises and organisations work for the tax payers to serve the public in what ever area of service they provide.
Not saying you do not make an awesome contribution, heck you might fly an EMQ chopper for example. Hope that all makes sense.
Not all business folk are take take take.
As for those of us in private business we don't just serve ourselves, half my week is serving many others, and a lot of us do this for nothing in return.
A slight correction based on my opinion so it may be challenged and overturned but the only people who serve the country are those in the ADF. The politicians and public servants and those who work for government enterprises and organisations work for the tax payers to serve the public in what ever area of service they provide.
Not saying you do not make an awesome contribution, heck you might fly an EMQ chopper for example. Hope that all makes sense.
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Jabawocky,
Point taken. I'm pretty sure I serve the country.
I have no beef with private enterprise, or with anyone really. I just objected to grog's post.
Point taken. I'm pretty sure I serve the country.
I have no beef with private enterprise, or with anyone really. I just objected to grog's post.
Last edited by emergov; 19th Mar 2013 at 14:24.
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I not posted to Oakey, but as an Aviator I have been. I have some good friends who are posted there.
I stress these are my own opinions here, not those of defence.
I stress these are my own opinions here, not those of defence.
Last edited by emergov; 19th Mar 2013 at 21:13.
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Jabmeister - Wagners sold the Falcon 10 to some wannabe who used it to send himself broke; last time I looked it was still chained to the tarmac at CS where it will prob remain until its broken up for parts, as it has not flown since 2008 and would not be a viable proposition for rehab.
Unless Wagner has bought a new one to keep his new B350i company...
Unless Wagner has bought a new one to keep his new B350i company...
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Emergov,
On reflection I apologise to you for getting personal as I do get frustrated by the negativity sometimes put forward. In any event that is no excuse and you are right you are perfectly entitled to your point of view.
I do wish to point out however that when defence choose to conduct numerous instrument approaches and various training exercises at civilian airfields or when I get routed around R631 due to the Super hornets I try to accept that they too are entitled to the airspace. I don't for a moment think that they shouldn't be there. In fact I often wish I could see them at work.
Its for those reasons that I think we should all work together and I object to the idea, that because it is DOD, that we should not be allowed to enter. In fact Oakey is a very popular instrument training destination on weekends and out of hours and I still don't understand how an airport in close proximity will effect Rotary training operations.
Groggy
On reflection I apologise to you for getting personal as I do get frustrated by the negativity sometimes put forward. In any event that is no excuse and you are right you are perfectly entitled to your point of view.
I do wish to point out however that when defence choose to conduct numerous instrument approaches and various training exercises at civilian airfields or when I get routed around R631 due to the Super hornets I try to accept that they too are entitled to the airspace. I don't for a moment think that they shouldn't be there. In fact I often wish I could see them at work.
Its for those reasons that I think we should all work together and I object to the idea, that because it is DOD, that we should not be allowed to enter. In fact Oakey is a very popular instrument training destination on weekends and out of hours and I still don't understand how an airport in close proximity will effect Rotary training operations.
Groggy
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Thanks Grog, I appreciate that. I apologise if I have been antagonistic.
As I say, I'm not there, but as I understand it, the major concerns are that IFR acft inbound to Wellcamp will invoke traffic separation that will put OK circuit traffic on the ground for several minutes for each arrival, and that low level NVG training acft will be affected because at the moment NVG act must be cleared not above LSALT. They can't occupy the same airspace as inbound IFR traffic.
If this is going to work without undue disruption to helo training, the rules for traffic separation will have to be changed, or local procedure very carefully designed.
As I say, I'm not there, but as I understand it, the major concerns are that IFR acft inbound to Wellcamp will invoke traffic separation that will put OK circuit traffic on the ground for several minutes for each arrival, and that low level NVG training acft will be affected because at the moment NVG act must be cleared not above LSALT. They can't occupy the same airspace as inbound IFR traffic.
If this is going to work without undue disruption to helo training, the rules for traffic separation will have to be changed, or local procedure very carefully designed.
I have just finished reading this very entertaining thread. Why do people assume that the Wagners have not already spoken to all stakeholders? Including Defence. Trust me, they have. This will happen, agree with it or not 
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2870m runway.
That is indeed rather elegant. I have done a few of that 'length class' around the world and so have done the analyses to be able to appreciate their elegance. That is clever.
It bugg%rs most engineers though - Wagners obviously don't have one of the 'big firms'
doing their engineering. Anyone know who it is?
Thoughts:
(a) 240m RESAs absolutely needed, which are likely already provided (plus a few extra metres for the boundary road).
(b) size up the aircraft parking so that (out on the edge), you have clearance and jetblast clearance and taxiways to park off a couple of An225s for a few days. That'll take care of the longest term freight opportunities.
(c) no a/c in the terminal - that'll send you broke (well, there might be a couple of small rooms that need it).
(d) don't design for annual pax - it is busy hour that counts.
(e) get a few runway pavement designs done because you can build something quite thin initially, then overlay it as required. Spread everything out for 4F though.
Good luck.
OverRun
PS - model up the airfield occupancy well - you don't need the parallel taxiway for many years. And try some clever runway ends/turning nodes to allow a couple of aircraft there at once.
That is indeed rather elegant. I have done a few of that 'length class' around the world and so have done the analyses to be able to appreciate their elegance. That is clever.
It bugg%rs most engineers though - Wagners obviously don't have one of the 'big firms'
doing their engineering. Anyone know who it is?Thoughts:
(a) 240m RESAs absolutely needed, which are likely already provided (plus a few extra metres for the boundary road).
(b) size up the aircraft parking so that (out on the edge), you have clearance and jetblast clearance and taxiways to park off a couple of An225s for a few days. That'll take care of the longest term freight opportunities.
(c) no a/c in the terminal - that'll send you broke (well, there might be a couple of small rooms that need it).
(d) don't design for annual pax - it is busy hour that counts.
(e) get a few runway pavement designs done because you can build something quite thin initially, then overlay it as required. Spread everything out for 4F though.
Good luck.
OverRun
PS - model up the airfield occupancy well - you don't need the parallel taxiway for many years. And try some clever runway ends/turning nodes to allow a couple of aircraft there at once.
Last edited by OverRun; 11th Apr 2013 at 11:34.
a couple of An225s
"If you build it, they will build another one and come"
Trojan 1981,
The stakeholders have been engaged, but have they been listened to. My understanding of the engagement with defence was more of a demand rather than a consultation.
As I said previously, pretty arrogant to assume that stakeholders will accomodate them. For anyone interested I believe there was RAPAC meeting concerning this last Tuesday. Anybody go?
I am involved in this at a medium level and my advice to all stakeholders is that this proposition will not be a win win for everybody. Where Wellcamp gets to operate, somebody is going to lose out.
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The stakeholders have been engaged, but have they been listened to. My understanding of the engagement with defence was more of a demand rather than a consultation.
As I said previously, pretty arrogant to assume that stakeholders will accomodate them. For anyone interested I believe there was RAPAC meeting concerning this last Tuesday. Anybody go?
I am involved in this at a medium level and my advice to all stakeholders is that this proposition will not be a win win for everybody. Where Wellcamp gets to operate, somebody is going to lose out.
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Wagner project appears to have State and Commonwealth blessings with rumors of Toowoomba being closed and redeveloped by Wagner into an industrial estate. Feds appear to have backed away from Oakey being sacrosanct. Ref Radio 2GB 1140 hrs 18/10/2013. Jones show showing outrage as is prone to.
CASA mentioned in despatches.
CASA mentioned in despatches.
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Wagner project appears to have State and Commonwealth blessings with rumors of Toowoomba being closed and redeveloped by Wagner into an industrial estate. Feds appear to have backed away from Oakey being sacrosanct. Ref Radio 2GB 1140 hrs 18/10/2013. Jones show showing outrage as is prone to.
CASA mentioned in despatches.
CASA mentioned in despatches.
Megle2 is a more reliable source. Far too much local investment in the current setup at YTWB to be simply "shifted" in the short to medium term. Either way, Toowoomba is showing itself to be the leading expanding economy in Aust at present.
Why the whining about someone spending big on aviation infrastructure? Airfields, civil and military, co-exist all over the world as in USA, UK, France, Canada etc in close proximity without a drama. Why is the half a dozen choppers that might fly a few days a week and night at Oakey an issue?
TWB is not closing as a result of Wellcamp either. The council has made that quite clear.
TWB is not closing as a result of Wellcamp either. The council has made that quite clear.
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Hilarious
You guys make me laugh. The Pprune armchair experts at it again! Those Wagner guys are serious, and do things well. They are hard nosed businessmen with a track record to dream of. Watch this project go. They are being totally realistic and have such clear visions of the future that they need to be supported not condemned. And they have one thing in mind; they want their hometown to grow. Grow it will. That little goat track in the middle of Toowoomba can't support much. An appropriately sized airport, in a good location with a business park is genius. Even Guido Zuccoli saw the writing on the wall for Toowoomba when he built his oversized hangar 20 years ago. He is on record as saying that the current airport will go and there'll be one out around Wellcamp one day. His hangar was built to be an industrial shed when the airport turned into a business park.
You guys think John thought this up last year? No way, they've been talking about this, asking people who know and more importantly putting their money where their mouth is and buying up land in the target location. This has been on the Wagner radar for decades. This Pprune thread makes us pilots look like the naive people we are. The Wagners are business people, and pilots, that's why they are creating the future. (BTW, John held his own as a pilot of the Falcon when they had it! For a private pilot he was good, probably still is).
As for Alan Jones' comments, phht. Yawn.
As this thread shows, the old Tall Poppy Syndrome is alive and well. The facts of Wellcamp is that the airport is on their land, the runway is being built from rock from their quarry and they are funding it with their money etc etc. If it fails, it's their loss, not yours. The points regarding Oakey's airspace are invalid. There's this thing called 'negotiation' that happens that creates things like deals and agreements. Maybe you heard about it in your CRM? There are very significant hurdles in this project, but one by one they are being overcome.
All the best to them! Watch the aircraft land in about a year!
You guys think John thought this up last year? No way, they've been talking about this, asking people who know and more importantly putting their money where their mouth is and buying up land in the target location. This has been on the Wagner radar for decades. This Pprune thread makes us pilots look like the naive people we are. The Wagners are business people, and pilots, that's why they are creating the future. (BTW, John held his own as a pilot of the Falcon when they had it! For a private pilot he was good, probably still is).
As for Alan Jones' comments, phht. Yawn.
As this thread shows, the old Tall Poppy Syndrome is alive and well. The facts of Wellcamp is that the airport is on their land, the runway is being built from rock from their quarry and they are funding it with their money etc etc. If it fails, it's their loss, not yours. The points regarding Oakey's airspace are invalid. There's this thing called 'negotiation' that happens that creates things like deals and agreements. Maybe you heard about it in your CRM? There are very significant hurdles in this project, but one by one they are being overcome.
All the best to them! Watch the aircraft land in about a year!
