Barry Hempel Inquest

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

NB You will also remember that Senator Fawcett pointed out to Beaker (in the first public hearing of the Senate inquiry AAI Pel-Air) that although Beaker was pleading bureau overload of investigations and limited resources in 2008 there was in fact an under spend on the ATSB budget!

I wonder if the underspend resulted in exec bonuses?

Also, just reflecting on Senate Inquiry , Barrier and this thread. They say an awful lot. I know some say tautological nonsense, but mke up your own mind.

[Sunfish]

One could wonder if one of the reasons the ATSB may discontinue and investigation "at any time" might be if the resulting report may be inimical to CASA or the Minister?

If that is the case then IMO the FAA/ICAO may be forced to downgrade Australia at the first obvious occurence of such an event.

[Volumex]

From the Pel-Air Senate Committee 28 Feb 2013:

Senator FAWCETT: At the end of a fairly long and convoluted process, the highest risk you would attribute to the safety outcome for the patient, their family, their nurse and their doctor on an EMS operation like this is fairly low because of the process. I, personally, have some concerns with that approach, but I hear that is the process you are working with.
I take you to annex 13 from ICAO. Are you familiar with their definition of standards versus recommended practices?
Mr Dolan: Yes, I am
Senator FAWCETT: So are you familiar with the use of the world 'shall' or 'should'?
Mr Dolan: Yes, I am familiar with italics as opposed to standard type, and various other things in the standard.
Senator FAWCETT: In paragraph 5.4 it says:
The accident investigation authority shall have independence in the conduct of the investigation and have unrestricted authority over its conduct … The investigation shall include:
a) the gathering, recording and analysis of all available information on that accident or incident;
Mr Dolan: 'Shall normally include', yes.
Senator FAWCETT: No, it says:
The investigation shall include:
a) the gathering, recording and analysis of all available information on that accident or incident;
There is no 'should', no 'normally'—it says 'shall'.
Mr Dolan: The version I have, which is the version promulgated on 18 October 2010, with additions that have been updated, says, 'The investigation shall'—and I agree with 'shall'—'normally include …'
Senator FAWCETT: It appears mine is not the current version, so I will stand corrected on that.
Mr Dolan: 'Shall' is the language.




Good to see that Captain Courageous is highly skilled at playing one upmanship with the Senator. It is scandalous that in a short period of time the ATSB has fallen from being a highly respected authority in Aviation safety to a "Yes Minister" operation that is only good at playing wordgames with the Senate inquiry.

[Kharon]

Clear as mud.

Nicely done Sarcs -

Quite apart from sympathy for the families, you have to spare a though for the poor old Coroner. How would you like to have to unscramble this mess and deliver what will be an important decision?. Tuff stuff.

Perhaps one of our more erudite commentators with some legal savvy could assist here. Where do the Coroners boundaries end?. What I'm trying to say is, do the 'after' the event operations and pantomimes matter to the Coroner?

Does the lack of CASA/ATSB investigations affect the eventual Coronial decision about the how and the why of the deaths, even if the reports are flawed or incomplete or just not done?

Would the Coroner need to care – or be interested?

There are many what could be described as "side" issues; there's the tantalizing whiff of "conflict of interest" with QBE and CASA legal getting fairly chummy and discussing a possible 'fraudulent claim' by Hempels. Is this the Coroners concern?

Then there is the saga of the "phantom" witness which is passing strange, indeed. Seems a pilot was doing a float plane ticket and witnessed the whole thing, but was reluctant to chat with the CASA investigator. Now it appears (not confirmed) that no one could find him. No one except the CFI and the CEO of Warbirds who advised the CASA. So, the 'phantom' disappeared into the mists, without ever being at least named for the Coroner to have a word with. Does this matter to a Coroner?

I ask because there are some strange and wonderful things associated with this episode but just how they impact on the Coroner and how the system works is a mystery to me. But when it quacks and waddles like duck, I could be excused for thinking it is a duck.

[Jabawocky]

Was the senator homing in on the FDR and CVR?

Why are these still in the ocean when they are easy to get?

[Jamair]

Why are they still lying on the ocean floor? Because the longer they stay there, the less likely it is they will stay intact and therefore the less likely it is that they will provide objective evidence of what really occurred in the latter stages of that flight; thereby relieving ATSB from the need to explore those realities as compared to the piffle that was published. My opinion.

[my oleo is extended]

Toejamair, spot on my friend! It's amazing what 2 or 3 years of salt water and shifting tides will do to your evidence! The ATSBeaker may not have initially thought of keeping the beakerboxes submerged for that reason but I am pretty sure that it didn't take long before somebody there realised that a retrieval operation was best not to be undertaken.
The ATSBeaker is a shell of what it was. Beaker and his mii mi-ing has done damage beyond what words can describe. Maybe Team America will graciously set up a branch of the NTSB in Australia to do the work that 'The Fanulous Beaker Brothers' can't do??

[Kharon]

Willyleaks.

Sec (Confidential).
To : the higher up Jobsworths.
From : a slippery pole contender.

Mate, There is a call on Pprune for a great underwater salvage fund to be initiated – (Sunny for Chairman). Their purpose would be to complete underwater evidence recovery.

This would deprive the Navy of some great training of course. It is a preferable to have a self funding, user pays system. That way budget monies could be reserved for important things like soft white paper, heated chamber pots and increased legal fees. They would have to supply the crew (investigators and auditors) though. As you are aware the official ones are terribly busy attending Coroners Inquests, Senate Inquiries and other hugely expensive functions which are conducted in defence of our realm. Another great side benefit would be the bonus system could be well and truly milked. Just think of the perceived "savings", we'd make mincemeat out of that mob at Estimates.

I am on the second floor at Brisvegas this week if you want to coffee (Thursday if you want to use your Gloria Jeans voucher).

Best etc. A. Bright spark. (wannabe Contender).

[Sarcs]

Déjà vu!

I am on the second floor at Brisvegas this week if you want to coffee (Thursday if you want to use your Gloria Jeans voucher).

Very cheeky "K", love it!

At first I had to check the title of the thread when people were talking about the non-salvaging of stuff on the ocean floor but...but then after reading some more of the QPS coroner report it hit me like déjà vu, here's a couple more pages from the report:






See what I mean..there's even a link back to the 'brothers in arms' in certain other passages of the report.

And the end result?? Despite the best intentions of the Coroner...err the Yak never got lifted and the Coroner is subsequently left with an element of doubt about that FOD barrier and bell crank area as the QPS divers couldn't quite get inside the area of concern to take some phots. The phots they did take were examined by an ATSB boffin who couldn't make a definitive yes or no...all very untidy from the Coroner's point of view!

Q/ What's 30 grand? A single first class return ticket to Montreal with 5 star accommodation perhaps?? Nah probably have to slum it in 3 star I'd say!

[PAIN_NET]

QPS- Hempel report.

The boys thought that some may like to read the -QPS report -to the Hempel Coroner. The file is 45 MB and may take a minute or two download. From Zippyshare. Please only use the "Download Now" button in the top right hand corner of the page.

P26. a.k.a. 36-24-36.

[Sarcs]

Questions for the Coroner (Part two)!

Onwards and down to the murky underbelly with tales of tragedy and parallel universes....down..down..down!!

Q/ Why is it that anytime FF are involved in parallel investigations into accidents there is always a whiff of rank, fetid, corruption and bulldust?

So FF involvement in the Hempel investigation, pg 45 & pgs 121-123 of the QPS report:






So questions for the Coroner…hmm where do you want to start…anyone???

I find it somewhat bemusing that the further this Hempel saga went on the more and more people from FF got involved, last count I was over twenty and some of those included flying fiend doing the Samba with a QBE PI to MQ. At least MQ had the good sense to not reply… “stay clear of that Mick old son just say the letter got lost in the mail!”

Perhaps another chapter in the ‘Shelfware Chronicles’ is almost complete??

[my oleo is extended]

Sarcs, robust research as always. Lutze saw the light and abandoned the S.S CASA. My understanding with this investigation was it was stressful enough, and combined with the challenge of being directed by Quinn, plus having Vaughan involved and subsequent 'interesting dynamics' of Vaughan and Quinn together. She could see what the future held at FF and bailed. Smart girl.
Then add into the mix chief whip The Grima Reaper and you can just see how this saga was going to end in tears.
J Jones was an interesting character, my understanding was he too was sick of all the FF pony poo and bailed before things hit rock bottom.

Yes, once again the Hempel investigation contained all the finesse of a Black Sabbath concert, and in standard CASA fashion the loop remains open and a trail of pony manure lays along CASA's path.
Poor old QLD coppers having to deal with the regulatory monolith.

'Safe skies weren't Hempel skies'

[Kharon]

You've got to have friends.

Hempel: No MR x 4, No medical x 5, Maintenance directive x 2, No record TIS x 1, No log book 1. Fined $16,000 (< $4000) and to be of good behaviour for three years.

Quadrio was hammered out of existence for a lot less than this and yet Johns claims it was a 'group' decision to give Hempel a licence but goes on to admit that most of his statements were a 'nonsense' (before swooning away). A thing of wonder to me how the CASA mind works. Then, from the QPS report, there's this puzzle to think on:-

Oct 13. 2008 08:08 – Jones to ?? missing email.

Oct 14. 2008. 07:54 – Crocker (Warbirds) to Jones – CFI Sydney Aerobatics, possibility of a second witness.

Oct 14 2008. 07:57 - Jones to Crocker, re contact details of witness.

Oct 13. 2008. 08:30 - Jones to Crocker – Email missing.

Oct 14. 2008. 08:10. - Yvette Lutz – Crocker with 'witnesses' and offers of his divers to retrieve the wreck.

No further correspondence available; nil for Bourke.

Oct 14. 2008.-14:10. - Bourke to Jones - wants the witness to speak suggests offering a $2250 fine for not helping an investigation may persuade at least one Crocker witness to 'have a chat". No further news of 'witnesses?' from this point.

Oct 20. 2008 – 16:59 – Vaughan to Tredrea and Anastasi. Initial contact and high speed hand off of QBE issues. - (Smart).

Oct 20. 2008 – 17:19 – Tredrea to Anastasi and Vaughan – Asks Anastasi to deal. Tredrea rapid hands off QBE contact - (Fast flick).

Oct 21. 2008 09:10 – Anastasi to Tredrea and Vaughan. Hempel insurance matters discussed further with a 'very cooperative' QBE. No further correspondence available on this matter.

Aye, it's all passing strange.

[Sarcs]

The problems of playing the man and not the ball (AOC)!

Kharon said (my bold):

Hempel: No MR x 4, No medical x 5, Maintenance directive x 2, No record TIS x 1, No log book 1. Fined $16,000 (< $4000) and to be of good behaviour for three years.

Quadrio was hammered out of existence for a lot less than this and yet Johns claims it was a 'group' decision to give Hempel a licence but goes on to admit that most of his statements were a 'nonsense' (before swooning away).

Ah yes to read the FF Hempel ‘Show Cause’ document attached to the QPS Coroners report leaves one to think that big bad Bazza was a ‘protected species’.

Personally I think it is a classic case of FF playing the man and not the ball. One could argue the point for FF that Bazza was a ‘repeat offender’, who had been thumbing his nose at the authorities for decades and therefore FF were well justified in attacking the man.

However if we were to take the present case that is in the public arena i.e. Barrier and time travel back a decade and then replace the name to Hempel and say to FF legal…“go your hardest at shutting down the Hempel AOC”…well would Lovell maybe have been alive today as a consequence?

Going off the bold bits in Kharon’s post and given that these were just a sampling of a litany of non-compliances and priors by BH (some of which was admitted to by BH) it would appear that FF had very damning documented evidence (for a change!). The seriousness of these documented non-compliances etc..etc far outweighs anything presented thus far in the Barrier case.

Yet Barrier’s AOC is permanently cancelled on far less alleged misdemeanours and with total disregard by FF on ‘rule of law’ principles.

So it isn’t too much of a stretch to imagine that FF could have pulled BH’s AOC and put BH out of business with a legitimate legally justified case i.e. adhering to ‘rule of law' and the 'MLR' principles.

Therefore FF could (a) have stopped the means for BH to fly illegal psuedo commercial operations under the cover of the Hempel AOC; and (b) Samantha Hare wouldn’t have seen an advertisement for Hempel’s adventure flights; and (c) not have bought the ticket that put her fiancé in the back seat of BH’s Yak that fateful, tragic day.

Kharon said: “A thing of wonder to me how the CASA mind works.”

Hmm…Hempel…Pel-Air…Barrier…Hempel…Pel-Air...Barrier (I know there’s more but these matters are here and now i.e. current) all similar in some ways but all handled by FF with apparently different ‘modi operandi’…yes indeed Kharon …“it's all passing strange.”???

[tail wheel]

Did Mr Dolan mislead Senator Fawcett?

From ICAO Annex 13:

General
5.4 The accident investigation authority shall have independence in the conduct of the investigation and have unrestricted authority over its conduct, consistent with the provisions of this Annex. The investigation shall include:
a) the gathering, recording and analysis of all available information on that accident or incident;
b) if appropriate, the issuance of safety recommendations;
c) if possible, the determination of the causes; and
d) the completion of the final report.
When possible, the scene of the accident shall be visited, the wreckage examined and statements taken from witnesses.

[Creampuff]

Is the 9th edition, dated 2001, the current edition of Annex 13?

[Volumex]

Current edition is 10th edition, dated 2010.

Annex 13 Aircraft Accident and Incident Investigation. - ENGLISH - Printed - ICAO Online Store

[my oleo is extended]

Volumex, can you please email that link to Beaker?

Tail wheel, I believe M Dolan also said 'mi mi mi mi mi'.

[Sarcs]

Good catch Volumex! Err creamy you know what that means?? I do believe Mr Dolan owes the good Senator an apology!

ps and Taily your link was the relevant Annex 13 edition for Hempel, again good catch!

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

Small 'r' regulator
Hempel
Pel Air
Allegedly - don't want any industry complaints.

Big 'R' regulator
Quadrio
Barrier
Tautology, delusional, ills of society.