EFATO turn back
Grandpa Aerotart
Well done.
Did you try with flaps? I am half guessing your reference to 'pushing' to unload indicated you were, to some extent, 'ballooning' around the turn due flaps extending?
If not try with flaps - don't 'push' to unload just don't haul back hard enough to stall. I would suggest if you could have measured the forces on the stick you were not actually 'pushing', even though it felt like it compared to the amount of pull you're used to in a normal steep turn.
When I was learning this manouver 30 years ago we used to, purely for fun, see how hard we could pull around the turn. We got to the point we were in light buffet the whole way around...it resulted in some impressively small numbers. There is NO practical application of that method in my view - but as a pure handling exercise it had merit - and, most importantly, was great fun.
At the end of the lesson did your student have a bigger smile than usual and say something like "Thanks heaps, that was awesome"
Runaway Gun.
Those clip on 'sash' harnesses are indeed not great.
That is why I pulled them out of my Bo and have '4 point' inertia reels that mount in the roof to install when the time comes in the restoration.
I am just too used to 4 point inertia reel harnesses. If I was going into trees in the Tiger Moth I would indeed be hauling down on the tensioners - I had a think about where they were anchored and that point is well below my shoulders. Compressed spine - Not good
Did you try with flaps? I am half guessing your reference to 'pushing' to unload indicated you were, to some extent, 'ballooning' around the turn due flaps extending?
If not try with flaps - don't 'push' to unload just don't haul back hard enough to stall. I would suggest if you could have measured the forces on the stick you were not actually 'pushing', even though it felt like it compared to the amount of pull you're used to in a normal steep turn.
When I was learning this manouver 30 years ago we used to, purely for fun, see how hard we could pull around the turn. We got to the point we were in light buffet the whole way around...it resulted in some impressively small numbers. There is NO practical application of that method in my view - but as a pure handling exercise it had merit - and, most importantly, was great fun.
At the end of the lesson did your student have a bigger smile than usual and say something like "Thanks heaps, that was awesome"
Runaway Gun.
Those clip on 'sash' harnesses are indeed not great.
That is why I pulled them out of my Bo and have '4 point' inertia reels that mount in the roof to install when the time comes in the restoration.I am just too used to 4 point inertia reel harnesses. If I was going into trees in the Tiger Moth I would indeed be hauling down on the tensioners - I had a think about where they were anchored and that point is well below my shoulders. Compressed spine - Not good
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 2nd Apr 2012 at 04:13.
Yeah it was done with 10 deg flaps as per out company SOP's. Was a totally unscientific experiment at the spur of the moment when we had 0.1 left in a lesson.
There is a video somewhere where they do it quite sucessfully at different configurations and AOB. The least height loss (from memory) was somewhere around 70 deg AoB and pulling hard all the way back to about 5 kts above the stall. They reasoned that it was imposible to stall in the first half of the turn. I'll see if I can dig it up.
If i can work efficiently (will be a first for me)and get some time up my sleve, I'll try to do it again and video the results and post up here. Safe to say, its not easy, even after a few thousand hrs of Abinitio instucting. So for a amateur who doesnt fly much, wings level, max 30 deg either side of the nose as per the take-off safety brief. Works for me too cause I'm no Bob Hoover.
Interestingly, this thread started a discussion in the office. Its seems most instructors have never heared of the minimum sink speed, just a few knots above the stall, its not listed in the C172 POH.
Edit- Chimbu, I just watched your video, and yes, I do agree that the turnback is possible, but you have to have perfect attitude control and really know what you are doing. A badly handled turn at low altitude opens up a can of worms, certainly something a low timer/ low currency pilot shuld not attempt.
There is a video somewhere where they do it quite sucessfully at different configurations and AOB. The least height loss (from memory) was somewhere around 70 deg AoB and pulling hard all the way back to about 5 kts above the stall. They reasoned that it was imposible to stall in the first half of the turn. I'll see if I can dig it up.
If i can work efficiently (will be a first for me)and get some time up my sleve, I'll try to do it again and video the results and post up here. Safe to say, its not easy, even after a few thousand hrs of Abinitio instucting. So for a amateur who doesnt fly much, wings level, max 30 deg either side of the nose as per the take-off safety brief. Works for me too cause I'm no Bob Hoover.
Interestingly, this thread started a discussion in the office. Its seems most instructors have never heared of the minimum sink speed, just a few knots above the stall, its not listed in the C172 POH.
Edit- Chimbu, I just watched your video, and yes, I do agree that the turnback is possible, but you have to have perfect attitude control and really know what you are doing. A badly handled turn at low altitude opens up a can of worms, certainly something a low timer/ low currency pilot shuld not attempt.
Last edited by Ozgrade3; 2nd Apr 2012 at 07:23.
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Ozgrade
When CC reads this I think I know what he will be thinking 
That video we lovingly prepared, was not spur of the moment.
I do not consider myself a Bob Hoover either, far from it. I would love to have the skill and talent CC has lost/forgotten, let alone what he has left. I do have a very high grade of flying friends, aerobatic performers with low level waivers etc. and many airline guys. I am a mere morsal of plankton in the food chain, but I am happy to pull 45 deg AOB if I have to at low level.
This is not something for the guy about to sit his GFPT, but heck....when you do PPL training, and a bit of steep turn training, what are you actually doing that for? To make them scared of "steep turns" over 25 degrees? I know that is not what you think, but it seems this is not what gets produced.
45 degrees AOB should not be a problem.
Nothing more to say here other than refer all Chimbu Chucks posts. And remember depending on the equipment in use, you need to set minimums.
Was a totally unscientific experiment at the spur of the moment when we had 0.1 left in a lesson.
That video we lovingly prepared, was not spur of the moment.
I do not consider myself a Bob Hoover either, far from it. I would love to have the skill and talent CC has lost/forgotten, let alone what he has left. I do have a very high grade of flying friends, aerobatic performers with low level waivers etc. and many airline guys. I am a mere morsal of plankton in the food chain, but I am happy to pull 45 deg AOB if I have to at low level.
This is not something for the guy about to sit his GFPT, but heck....when you do PPL training, and a bit of steep turn training, what are you actually doing that for? To make them scared of "steep turns" over 25 degrees? I know that is not what you think, but it seems this is not what gets produced.
45 degrees AOB should not be a problem.
Nothing more to say here other than refer all Chimbu Chucks posts. And remember depending on the equipment in use, you need to set minimums.
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I'm calling you out on that one mate.
I am interested in your experience with the CT4/B. In particular:
• Given you were above 700FT AGL, were you turning crosswind or still upwind?
• What average AoB did you achieve?
• What IAS were you targeting?
• Flaps up or at ˝?
• Were you 1 or 2 POB, and what was your fuel load?
• What airfield/s were you practicing at?
Quote:
Give me fixed wings any day.
Your choice chops, I'll take my zero forward speed, zero vertical speed engine out touchdown any day....
Quote:
You wouldn't be able to call yourself a public servant after such an event
Showing your lack of education again...
Give me fixed wings any day.
Your choice chops, I'll take my zero forward speed, zero vertical speed engine out touchdown any day....
Quote:
You wouldn't be able to call yourself a public servant after such an event
Showing your lack of education again...
After all, (and from several PMs) you bombed out of 2FTS after looking for fast jets and were given the black hawk bone.
Keep telling yourself how great it is, maybe go to the rotorheads forum and post it there. At least someone will believe you.
If you keep posting your nonsense, expect to lose your tail rotor and go into a spin
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Just watched the video on CC post.
Question, why was the first practice engine out in a single, followed by a turn back done over a built up area? You can see the houses of Central Lakes in the video.
Question, why was the first practice engine out in a single, followed by a turn back done over a built up area? You can see the houses of Central Lakes in the video.
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BPA
Are you trying to pick fights?
The first bit you are referring to is a straight forward glide approach in the circuit. There are about 160 of these per day flown there. So do you think this was anything unusual?
The procedure did not involve mixture cuts or anything stupid.
As for the rest of the exercise it was conducted on a Sunday afternoon over the Caboolture rubbish tip.
If this is just a simple bad guess at the situation you are forgiven and if you are just trying to muck rake.....you will have to sharpen up your act a heap
Now focus on the real topic will ya!
Are you trying to pick fights?
The first bit you are referring to is a straight forward glide approach in the circuit. There are about 160 of these per day flown there. So do you think this was anything unusual?
The procedure did not involve mixture cuts or anything stupid.
As for the rest of the exercise it was conducted on a Sunday afternoon over the Caboolture rubbish tip.
If this is just a simple bad guess at the situation you are forgiven
and if you are just trying to muck rake.....you will have to sharpen up your act a heap Now focus on the real topic will ya!
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Not trying to pick fights, just a question that's all. I can see the tip in the rest of the video.
Just read my copy of the RAAF CT4A manual from 1989 and nothing in there about turn backs.
Just read my copy of the RAAF CT4A manual from 1989 and nothing in there about turn backs.
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Ozgrade3
Hmm,
2 comments.
1)You mention, rolling hard into a 60deg aob and pulling hard. Watch the video on the preceding page. Chimbu flies it smoothly, not agressively. Hard to tell 100% but it doesn't appear he exceeds 45 deg AOB at any time. Everything he does is smooth, which minimises his energy loss.
2) If you must play with this, don't do it with a student. Choose a safety pilot that doesn't look up to you as a student would....i.e a person competant and confident enough to call an end to the exercise before safety is compromised.
=======================================================
One thing to be noted from the video, is Chimbu is clearly never in a hurry to achieve the runway centreline. On the lower attempt, he doesn't make it until he crosses the fence. Very nicely executed.
Cheers
Jas
2 comments.
1)You mention, rolling hard into a 60deg aob and pulling hard. Watch the video on the preceding page. Chimbu flies it smoothly, not agressively. Hard to tell 100% but it doesn't appear he exceeds 45 deg AOB at any time. Everything he does is smooth, which minimises his energy loss.
2) If you must play with this, don't do it with a student. Choose a safety pilot that doesn't look up to you as a student would....i.e a person competant and confident enough to call an end to the exercise before safety is compromised.
=======================================================
One thing to be noted from the video, is Chimbu is clearly never in a hurry to achieve the runway centreline. On the lower attempt, he doesn't make it until he crosses the fence. Very nicely executed.
Cheers
Jas
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Fair cop, I wouldn’t expect anything less around here!!
I am interested in your experience with the CT4/B. In particular:
• Given you were above 700FT AGL, were you turning crosswind or still upwind?
• What average AoB did you achieve?
• What IAS were you targeting?
• Flaps up or at ˝?
• Were you 1 or 2 POB, and what was your fuel load?
• What airfield/s were you practicing at?
I am interested in your experience with the CT4/B. In particular:
• Given you were above 700FT AGL, were you turning crosswind or still upwind?
• What average AoB did you achieve?
• What IAS were you targeting?
• Flaps up or at ˝?
• Were you 1 or 2 POB, and what was your fuel load?
• What airfield/s were you practicing at?
- We flew an oval circuit, commencing the x-wind turn at 500 AGL. The 700' figure you mention is a number I suggested as giving sufficient reaction time to execute a turnback, even with a straight upwind leg. A <strong>planned and briefed</strong> EFATO was workable from 500' still on centreline. Anything after that turn was commenced is gravy.
- AOB? Dunno, didn't look at the AI. Light buffet, manoeuvre looking out the window. AOB depends on the wind really - a good stiff crosswind does wonders for that last turn to line up with the runway (provided your first turn is away from the crosswind)
- IAS 85kts
- Clean until approaching the flare
- Can't really remember, but those profiles were generally solo with 2/3 gas or more
- A nice wide 6500' blacktop! On a quiet and calm wind day we could request turnbacks time after time, effectively flying dumbells to the duty runway and then its reciprocal. Golden hours, hugely valuable training and practice.
Safe flying.
at the spur of the moment when we had 0.1 left in a lesson.
Just for some clarity.
"Rolling hard " into the turn was more of an expression, my roll rate was similar to Chimbu's video.
Not quite spur of the moment, we had briefed on the sequence prior to the flight, and it was my 7th session of UA's in the last 3 days. Just on this flight we ended up with the time to spare.
"Rolling hard " into the turn was more of an expression, my roll rate was similar to Chimbu's video.
Not quite spur of the moment, we had briefed on the sequence prior to the flight, and it was my 7th session of UA's in the last 3 days. Just on this flight we ended up with the time to spare.
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Jas good post and well observed.
The topic of AOB is an interesting one. 60 degrees will yield a better result, simple as that in theory.
In practise though depending on vision and ability to keep a light buffet in a coordinated turn a 45 is possibly a better compromise. We chose to fly 45, perhaps the master thought the student would struggle with more
What we needs is for Ultralights to strap his camera on the Savvy and see what it can do, if nothing else but to prove it all depends on the equipment you fly.
KNOW YOUR AEROPLANE
good post and well observed.The topic of AOB is an interesting one. 60 degrees will yield a better result, simple as that in theory.
In practise though depending on vision and ability to keep a light buffet in a coordinated turn a 45 is possibly a better compromise. We chose to fly 45, perhaps the master thought the student would struggle with more
What we needs is for Ultralights to strap his camera on the Savvy and see what it can do, if nothing else but to prove it all depends on the equipment you fly.
KNOW YOUR AEROPLANE
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What we needs is for Ultralights to strap his camera on the Savvy and see what it can do
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Sadly still waiting on parts, so no flying to Temora this weekend, as for the EFATO, i havnt tried it in the Savvy yet, but i tend to stick to the rule of straight ahead, i would rather be in control and wings level. or turn back if on crosswind depending on winds etc. but not try to make the runway, the airport grounds in general are smooth enough.
The Savannah will get off the runway in 50 mtrs if trying, so that leaves a LOT of runway ahead, and a Max angle of climb will see me at circuit height about 2/3 down the length of Wollongongs 16/34. so, with that in mind, engine quit at or below, 500, well, straight ahead and use the remaining runway. as for turning back, well, might have to get the cameras out and try it. but from 1000ft, i would complete a tight circuit.
now, jus hope those bushes arrive..
The Savannah will get off the runway in 50 mtrs if trying, so that leaves a LOT of runway ahead, and a Max angle of climb will see me at circuit height about 2/3 down the length of Wollongongs 16/34. so, with that in mind, engine quit at or below, 500, well, straight ahead and use the remaining runway. as for turning back, well, might have to get the cameras out and try it. but from 1000ft, i would complete a tight circuit.
now, jus hope those bushes arrive..
The Savannah will get off the runway in 50 mtrs if trying, so that leaves a LOT of runway ahead, and a Max angle of climb will see me at circuit height about 2/3 down the length of Wollongongs 16/34. so, with that in mind, engine quit at or below, 500, well, straight ahead and use the remaining runway. as for turning back, well, might have to get the cameras out and try it. but from 1000ft, i would complete a tight circuit.
Dr
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In practise though depending on vision and ability to keep a light buffet in a coordinated turn a 45 is possibly a better compromise.
Although I haven't done one recently, the point of showing a descending turn stall while training is the SportStar was that the only real indication of a stall would be the altimeter unwinding real quick. Unload the wings and it's flying again. No buffet I can remember.
Time to give it another go...