EFATO turn back
Has anyone posted this simple look at the turn:
Should You Turnback?
... which is a precis of this .pdf, also by the good Doctor:
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf
Should You Turnback?
... which is a precis of this .pdf, also by the good Doctor:
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf
Talk to those who have been involved in accidents or incidents (when there was damage) and they will tell you just how hard the lawyers are if the manufacturers procedures weren't followed.
Interestingly, there is an interesting decision about a crash, where the PIC did not follow the manufacturer's manual "recommendations" .
The pilot was sued for the damages to the aircraft.
The case went all the way through to the NSW Court of Appeal, a three man bench found for the pilot, on the basis of the power of the pilot in command as the final authority on the operation of the aircraft, overrode the manufacturer's manual.
Markey
v Wansey & Ors [2002] NSWCA 221 (11 July 2002) This is really quite an important, but little known judgement, that has quite widespread application.
Tootle pip
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The Pilot in Command has absolute authority. (full stop).
There is no democracy on the flight deck, be it a C172 or A380.
However perhaps somebody can set me free of something I was brought up to believe in this vein. That is if a PIC declares a MERCY FLIGHT he is immune from existing rules and regulations for his/her inted flight?
Or perhaps an Air traffic Controller actually "controlls" the flight?
There is no democracy on the flight deck, be it a C172 or A380.
However perhaps somebody can set me free of something I was brought up to believe in this vein. That is if a PIC declares a MERCY FLIGHT he is immune from existing rules and regulations for his/her inted flight?
Or perhaps an Air traffic Controller actually "controlls" the flight?
who's in charge....
My understanding is that while an ATC can give you a "clear to land", it has no meaning in the sense that the PIC must see that it IS clear to land and just not take his word for it.
If the PIC hits something, its his/her fault for not seeing the way wasnt clear.
What are the legal and moral obligations of the ATC ? He/she is supposed to do their job "properly" but the ULTIMATE responsibility rests with the PIC.
I can remember in years gone by when one got a call during the flight... from an ATC stating that they considered the conditions unsuitable for VFR..wotcha gunna do ??? My consideration from the elevated viewpoint was that I had a better assessment of the actual wx from where I was sitting.
And as PIC, who's handling the cat?? And whose ultimate responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight is it??
Thankfully that method of remote control didnt last long, because PIC means what it says.
Nevertheless ATC notwithstanding there are lots of "control" freaks around.
If the PIC hits something, its his/her fault for not seeing the way wasnt clear.
What are the legal and moral obligations of the ATC ? He/she is supposed to do their job "properly" but the ULTIMATE responsibility rests with the PIC.
I can remember in years gone by when one got a call during the flight... from an ATC stating that they considered the conditions unsuitable for VFR..wotcha gunna do ??? My consideration from the elevated viewpoint was that I had a better assessment of the actual wx from where I was sitting.
And as PIC, who's handling the cat?? And whose ultimate responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight is it??
Thankfully that method of remote control didnt last long, because PIC means what it says.
Nevertheless ATC notwithstanding there are lots of "control" freaks around.
A mercy flight is a flight which it is know will break some rule or regulation before the flight even begins - however this is justified in order to save life. The pilot still commands.
Up until the mid-80s, Australia (uniquely) had a legal system in which Air Traffic Control exercised "Operational Control" over flights. That meant they could legally direct the pilot to fly to a destination, based on their understanding of (for example) the aircraft's declared fuel state.
It would go something like:
"Lufthansa 23, say your fuel state."
"8000kg, Lufthansa 23"
"Lufthansa 23, Melbourne is experiencing thunderstorms, you have insufficient for possible holding, and are directed to divert to Sydney."
Up until the mid-80s, Australia (uniquely) had a legal system in which Air Traffic Control exercised "Operational Control" over flights. That meant they could legally direct the pilot to fly to a destination, based on their understanding of (for example) the aircraft's declared fuel state.
It would go something like:
"Lufthansa 23, say your fuel state."
"8000kg, Lufthansa 23"
"Lufthansa 23, Melbourne is experiencing thunderstorms, you have insufficient for possible holding, and are directed to divert to Sydney."
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Aora,
At Hammo one day, heavy showers had cleared and can see half way to destination and radar shows clear the rest of the way clear so decide to head off. I requested taxi clearance and provided intentions and was advised airspace closed to VFR - what are your intentions?
At the runway holding point looking at where I'm going and thinking buggar - if I don't get out in this break I could end up spending the night here.
A couple of seconds later comes the moment of inspiration followed by the radio call - 'Request Special VFR'.
It was that easy - and so was the flight as for that matter. From memory it did close back in later.
At Hammo one day, heavy showers had cleared and can see half way to destination and radar shows clear the rest of the way clear so decide to head off. I requested taxi clearance and provided intentions and was advised airspace closed to VFR - what are your intentions?
At the runway holding point looking at where I'm going and thinking buggar - if I don't get out in this break I could end up spending the night here.
A couple of seconds later comes the moment of inspiration followed by the radio call - 'Request Special VFR'.
It was that easy - and so was the flight as for that matter. From memory it did close back in later.
The Pilot in Command has absolute authority. (full stop).
Am interested in anyone with experience with the substitution test.
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EFATO - Forward to casa??
Maybe someone should forward this to casa and ATSB??
May have been useful for the analysis of PA30 at Camden and the Darwin Brazillia - perhaps should be mandatory reading for all pilots and certainly useful for multi IF renewals!!
May have been useful for the analysis of PA30 at Camden and the Darwin Brazillia - perhaps should be mandatory reading for all pilots and certainly useful for multi IF renewals!!
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Turning back RAAF style (in an ejector seat aircraft) is not about landing the thing. It is about deciding where you will leave the crater and how many beers you will have to buy for joining the caterpillar club.
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Turning back RAAF style (in an ejector seat aircraft) is not about landing the thing. It is about deciding where you will leave the crater and how many beers you will have to buy for joining the caterpillar club.
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Finally took some time to try it in the SportStar.
Stable climb at max rate, pull throttle, push hard forward, think for a few seconds, hard turn (>45 degrees) pull to load up the wings a bit. (more so with flaps)
250 ft. without flaps and 200ft with flaps to turn more than 180 degrees. (85KG below max gross, so I would expect a bit more sink when fully loaded.)
Stable climb at max rate, pull throttle, push hard forward, think for a few seconds, hard turn (>45 degrees) pull to load up the wings a bit. (more so with flaps)
250 ft. without flaps and 200ft with flaps to turn more than 180 degrees. (85KG below max gross, so I would expect a bit more sink when fully loaded.)
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There was an instructor at Essendon in the 70's and early 80's that advocated this procedure. He is no longer with us as he never made it having to actually doing it in anger one day. Better to crash in control at the point of your choosing ( even limited choice) rather than out of it. It is far too complicated to be doing in the heat of the moment.
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There are many variables. The rule we're taught is: "don't attempt it at less than 1000 AGL".
Am I going to do this it 300 ft because I know the aircraft can do it? Hell no!
Will I turn back at 800 feet (in this particular aircraft) when the alternative is densely built up suburb? **** yeah!
Am I going to do this it 300 ft because I know the aircraft can do it? Hell no!
Will I turn back at 800 feet (in this particular aircraft) when the alternative is densely built up suburb? **** yeah!
I do not have a date for this DH-82A EFATO accident in the Hunter Valley - but it is most graphic - and tragic.
The nose drop following the attempted turn - initially with rudder it would seem - is heart stopping.
Not for 'sensitive' viewers......
VERY Sad....However, we can all look at this and learn.....now.
The nose drop following the attempted turn - initially with rudder it would seem - is heart stopping.
Not for 'sensitive' viewers......
VERY Sad....However, we can all look at this and learn.....now.
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However, we can all look at this and learn.....now.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...R199401106.PDF
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Better to crash in control at the point of your choosing ( even limited choice) rather than out of it. It is far too complicated to be doing in the heat of the moment.
how to handle EFATO properly.
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casa and the NPRM 1007OS -
From the annex to the NRM:
Question is: Does this mean casa will stop the EFATO nonsense??
Question is: Does this mean casa will stop the EFATO nonsense??
COMMENT 3.2
One respondent suggests that it is a mistake to remove all non-normal training from the aircraft to simulators only. The respondent believes that there remains a place in aircraft for non-normal training.
CASA Response
As demonstrated by recent fatal accidents and other serious incidents, this approach would continue to place the lives of pilots and passengers at risk. As a result CASA is firmly of the view that where a qualified STD is available, this should be used for all training and checking activities and non-normal exercises. The rule does not prohibit additional, normal, exercises from being conducted in an aircraft.
One respondent suggests that it is a mistake to remove all non-normal training from the aircraft to simulators only. The respondent believes that there remains a place in aircraft for non-normal training.
CASA Response
As demonstrated by recent fatal accidents and other serious incidents, this approach would continue to place the lives of pilots and passengers at risk. As a result CASA is firmly of the view that where a qualified STD is available, this should be used for all training and checking activities and non-normal exercises. The rule does not prohibit additional, normal, exercises from being conducted in an aircraft.