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CASA spends millions chasing Milton Jones aviation business

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CASA spends millions chasing Milton Jones aviation business

Old 16th Jan 2012, 13:00
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Sad aint it...I once had an FOI say he was part of the Industry same as me...Na sorry..CASA is not part of the industry, not any more.
The corruption is now too embeded...do NOT talk to these people...you do so at your peril....Just a thought...withdrawal of service...what would happen if GA shut down for a day around Australia in protest???...would there be any effect???
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 13:21
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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You'd think if CASA were on the job, then Mr. Jones would have been aghast at a TV crew asking him to do some of these stunts ... "What! The regulator would be on my arse in no time!"

It speaks volumes that the thought obviously never went through his mind...

On so many films you see the disclaimer:
"No animals were harmed in the filming of this picture"
.. even when it looks like horses were blown up/stabbed etc - it's all "movie magic".

One would think that an operator would insists on the following disclaimer after each episode:
"No aviation rules were broken during the filming of this episode. Some events were edited later for entertainment purposes, and scenes shown as one event may contain footage filmed at different times."
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 13:28
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Check,
i think a similar thing was covered recently with the FWA series and a Txm light being on.

Damm good disclaimer..................let the regulator sort out what was real and what wasn't

Shame is they will make a 'determination' and the AAT will uphold their 'educated decision'

Its a croc!
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 23:14
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Some of the comments on here are unbelievable.

We all know CASA has spiralled into disarray, with a largely disfunctional and non-engaged workforce and "rent-a-cop" attitude. I have been saying for years (to my local FOI, among others) that CASA needs to start working with industry, rather than against it.

But blaming CASA for making Jones the operator he has become is just BS. Whenever we commit aviation, we all have a choice to make between operating legally and illegally. You can't use CASA's problems as justification for willful violation of the law.

Encouraging this sort of behaviour and avoiding the consequences just because of a grudge against the regulator stinks of immaturity.

I encourage that whatever money needs to be spent should be spent to determine whether this guy needs to be prosecuted.

I love to hate CASA and have had as many issues with them as the next guy... but I love my family and friends more than I love hating CASA, and don't want them getting into a helicopter with a like Jones.

Whether this guy is right or wrong I don't give a sh#t any more to be honest.
Would you give a sh#t if CASA left him alone and he killed your wife, a family member or friend?

Last edited by Slippery_Pete; 16th Jan 2012 at 23:43.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 00:51
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Would you give a sh#t if CASA left him alone and he killed your wife, a family member or friend?
Interesting scenario but his family are more likely to win lotto or get struck by lightning.
CASA are still pony poo.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 02:14
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Pete, you can look at it that way, but in doing so all you achieve is more of the same.

The definition of STUPIDITY is to keep doing what you are doing while expecting a different result.

Now lets look at these few valid points you raised

But blaming CASA for making Jones the operator he has become is just BS. Whenever we commit aviation, we all have a choice to make between operating legally and illegally. You can't use CASA's problems as justification for willful violation of the law.
Yes you are correct in that when I choose to commit aviation I do not set out to be willfully breaking rules or operating dangerously. I do not think anybody does that. And CASA's cultural problems do not forcre someone to do that either. However, the way they have become, has two side effects, one is they are too damned busy with a "prosecute safety into existance" to the point where for every hour spent on trying to fix one problem, they could be out preventing 10 of the same from beginning. The other is They are not spending quality time working with Industry....they make them hide instead for fear of prosecution.

Encouraging this sort of behaviour and avoiding the consequences just because of a grudge against the regulator stinks of immaturity.
Nobody here is encouraging this sort of behaviour at all. Don't believe this is true at all.

I encourage that whatever money needs to be spent should be spent to determine whether this guy needs to be prosecuted.
Perhaps so, in my personal opinion he is probably guilty as charged and should have known better. That being said, the fact that we are wasting so much $$ on this tells me the system as it is at present is not working very well at all. I know a system that is vastly different from this works better. Refer all my other posts on the matter in the other threads.

If that culture existed, I doubt this topic would exist today.

T28D said
Griffo, painfully gone, and we suffer for the loss of knowledge that used to transfer when there was no threat of punishment, just the good sense that if something was trending badly the chance of fixing it was in the hands of the experienced to help the less experienced to not stuff up and take other with them.

Now we prosecute to ensure "safety" how that works in practice I am not sure I could envisage. Maybe if we are all in Goal as Not Fit And Proper it all becomes safer.
And believe me we do not often see thigs the same way, but I think he summed things up quite well in that post.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 02:24
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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At the end of the day the operator is a fatal accident waiting to happen.

From what I saw he is so far outside the bounds of not only the law, but common sense, that any CASA prosecution is doing him and any potential passengers a favour and will probably save lives.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 04:38
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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IF the operator has broken the law AND demonstrated it on national television, wouldn't that set a really bad precedent if the regulator did not take some sort of follow up action?

To put that another way, if some yobbo televises a 'stunt' (say driving a car through a red light), wouldn't you expect the police to charge him?

Can any regulator afford to be seen to be not enforcing the law, particularly when the alleged offender is known and the alleged offences were also broadcast on national television?

Personally, I think he is remarkably foolish for doing those things but more so for actually allowing his stupidity to be filmed and broadcast on national television. I think he deserves a kick up the backside!
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 06:22
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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I think we all agree on that.

But what Supervised System gets us all to the point where a large well known operator gets to this?

They, the regulator HAVE NOT BEEN DOING THEIR JOB..........long before this TV crew turned up I would reckon.

Again like another thread recently, the actions of a few bit us all on the A$$ sooner or later.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 06:55
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Probably need to look at where money is being spent or not spent. Industry facing inspectors have been reduced over the years. It is all about systems and SMS with a tick box approach. Nothing wrong with that but inspectors can dig bit deeper and Check processes are working, also there to offer help and guidance.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 08:24
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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It is all about systems and SMS with a tick box approach. Nothing wrong with that but inspectors can dig bit deeper and Check processes are working, also there to offer help and guidance.
Not according to CASA's award winning mag 'Flight Safety' (current issue). Their article called 'Common Sense', yeah I know that's laughable, on SMS implementation states:
Using parts of an SMS without tailoring them to your
own organisation or circumstances is contrary to the
central idea of SMS. ‘Such a box-ticking exercise would
be both dangerous (thinking you are being safe when
you are not) and a waste of time,’ he says.
Box-ticking is in many ways the opposite of safety
culture. Just as with 'culture', there is no exact definition
of 'safety culture', but a 2006 ICAO document makes
a good stab when it refers to a good safety culture as
‘a corporate safety culture that fosters safe practices,
encourages safety communications and actively
manages safety with the same attention to results as

financial management.’

Link:
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...an-feb2012.pdf

Good to see they practise what they preach (not)!

Last edited by Sarcs; 17th Jan 2012 at 10:44.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 09:24
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Jaba.

I will answer a few of your points, but bear in mind we are on the same team - we both have concerns with CASA.

Yes you are correct in that when I choose to commit aviation I do not set out to be willfully breaking rules or operating dangerously. I do not think anybody does that.
I disagree. I do agree however that the majority of infractions against the law are probably due to lack of education, or lack of knowledge, or lack of support.... and that CASA are probably partially to blame for this. But towing someone on waterskis using a helicopter - give me a break! That's simply a complete, utter and INTENTIONAL break of the law.

Nobody here is encouraging this sort of behaviour at all. Don't believe this is true at all.
I think this comment from jas24zzk IS encouraging this sort of behaviour.

If that trend has continued, then I hope big Milt does em bareback!....slowly
As for this:

If that culture existed, I doubt this topic would exist today.
CASA could and SHOULD spend a lot more resources on working with industry and encouraging a collaborative approach to air safety.

The fact remains, however, that there will always remain a small minority who decide they are above the law and place the lives of Australians at risk.

Jaba, you need to pick your battles. There are probably a few thousand examples where you can easily and rightfully stick the boot into CASA about their fundamental issues and regulation vs. safety outcomes philosophy. Unfortunately, this scenario is not the right one.

You said T28D summed it up best, but I think peterc005 is on the money.

At the end of the day the operator is a fatal accident waiting to happen.

From what I saw he is so far outside the bounds of not only the law, but common sense, that any CASA prosecution is doing him and any potential passengers a favour and will probably save lives.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 10:18
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Pete

Yeah I would say we are almost on the same page, in fact probably more so that it appears on the surface.

I just do believe that if the regulator was doing its job of being a warmly welcome part of proactive safety culture, did not have criminal prosecutions over minor and petty things (this case is not minor OK..we do agree about skiing with helo's is not a good idea) which seems to be the MO of late, that the whole way people view CASA and their work would change. Again refer to my posts on the JQ threads.

Once this has changed you might find the greater number of folk would actually participate.

As an example, have you ever trained a dog or raised children? Probably yes, and this is not much different. Now did I smack our kids.....yep! It helped remove those sub standard wooden spoons from the kitchen....culinary saftey and all that! So with training a puppy do you flog it from the outset? NO

The educate and reward process works, it is the only one that works. However at times, when naughty puppy goess off and chews your boat trailer wiring you soon find that flogging said puppy with the cable, actually works.

Now a good helicoptor operator will respond better to education and reward, perhaps Mr Jones needs flogging with a R22 rotor blade, but had the education and monitoring process been done properly, the rotor blade floggings would not be needed now.

As for jas24's comments.......ooops I missed them, I must have written them off as some kind of silly gag and not serious commentary.

Maybe that closes the gap a little, and yes, I think Mr Jones should get some severe administrative penalties, but unless Mr Jones wanted to take those to court and risk the cost of losing, CASA should not be chasing criminal charges and wasting millions.

They could have taken the TV tapes and said we have this long list of breaches and fines attached, now show us why you think we are wrong, if you can't here is abunch of fines and an AOC suspension or whatever, and if you really think we are unfair off to court but you pay if you lose. This way if he knows he is screwed, he learns the lessons pays the fines and or suspensions etc, and a big lessoned learned at a fraction of the expense.

If however he is a total pratt about it, well all guns blazing on both sides. But that only lines the pockets of lawyers and empties the taxpayers. This should e avoided if possible.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 12:26
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Only a few years ago, after a rather extensive audit, a CASA FOI told Milton's Chief Pilot that his organisation was "a model for the rest of the (mustering and outback tourism) industry".

What you're seeing on television is on his own land, not for hire or reward and something that he's been doing (without one incident) for over 20 years.

Your family and friends could do a lot worse than get into a machine with Milton Jones at the controls.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 12:38
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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There is a Movie starting this month called Red Tails the story of the Tuskagee Airmen, directed by George Lucas.

It is a great story, magnificent visuals, and if any of you truly believe the flight sequences are real, I feel for you.

Cinematographers can do magic with visual effects and I am sure in the case of the Channel 10 director and camera men in the Jones doco suitable visual crafting was applied and the effects dramatised the actual performance.

CASA might rely on "footage" that is crafted to entertain an audience and which bears little resemblance to the actusl events.

The presentation of the evidence in a court will be to say the least an edifyling experience once the "cinematographers" account for the way they use their craft to enhance visual experience in order to entertain.

Yup I wait with anticipation to see them present an untainted case that impeaches without doubt !!!!!!!
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 12:46
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Yup I wait with anticipation to see them present an untainted case that impeaches without doubt !!!!!!!
Yup And i wonder where JQ would place his bet?
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 13:13
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Jaba - truce called

I think we both agree about the fundamental philosophy change which is required at the regulator.

Your comments about training a dog apply to training a pilot. Any good instructor understands this most basic of principles - it's called POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT. It seems the regulator doesn't understand this simple concept, which it itself requires flight instructors to understand and demonstrate.

And in 99.9% of cases - it works.

In the case of the 0.1% (say a Rottweiler bred for fighting, or pilots who tow water skiers on national TV) - the positive reinforcement technique, or in fact any other technique, is unlikely to work.

Only a few years ago, after a rather extensive audit, a CASA FOI told Milton's Chief Pilot that his organisation was "a model for the rest of the (mustering and outback tourism) industry".
That's fair enough, but things change in aviation - mighty fast! It could well have been the performance of said CP and not the owner which led CASA to this position. Is it the same CP now as then?

What you're seeing on television is on his own land, not for hire or reward and something that he's been doing (without one incident) for over 20 years.
Fair enough, but rules apply to private operations too. If he were such a model aviator, he would understand that simply by committing these acts (on national TV) he is setting a terrible example to junior pilots under his employ who look to him as a mentor.

Qantas didn't run off a runway for the 20 years before QF1.

Hopefully it turns out this was all computer graphics and we can all get down off our soap boxes
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 13:21
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Pete,
in no way am I advocating knowledgable breaking of the rules. Jaba missed my post because he read it as it was, and that was a light hearted summaray of what should happen.

i'll put my super serious hat on now..........

I made my comment based on the fact that this is a national airtime show, and it is the producers job to sensationalise what they air to sell tv time. Not all of what goes to air can be considered an accurate representation of the truth. Much of the editing is going to get any pilot into trouble, regardless of his/her adherance to the rules. I call heavily on the FWA and Ice Pilots series for that.

A good investigation would reveal anything prosecutable. But that is not how our regulator chooses to act. It appears clear to me that they prosecute at the drop of a hat, and make the evidence fit the crime, even when the government prosecutors choose not to follow up the claim.


Our regulations, give a penalty unit for transgressions of the law. CASA it appears to me, does not apply those penalty units, but seeks revocation of your privileges under the not a fit and proper person banner.

I see NOTHING positive or pro-active in promoting safety in that approach. A person who has been bitten in the wallet is more likely to spruik the safety message than one who has lost their privs. The later person is more likely to gain support for their wrong actions by those wishing to crucify the establishment.

I live in Vic, the policed state.....our road rules and penalties are some of the harshest in the land. You cock it up, the first thing you do is pay. Could you imagine Vicpol applying to the courts to take your ticket permanently becuase you are not a fit and proper person..there would be community uproar!

The whole idea of a fine system is to re-inforce education. Casa should use it. You bust the 250kt limit below 10k and think its ok. Imagine if that trangsression cost you $250? would you pay more attention to that rule? I bet your arse you'd only pay that fine once in your life. But current culture in CASA will see that you never fly again.
Is that penalty worth the resultant loss of career? experience to the industry?


The jones skiing footage.haven't seen it, but hell yer, i'd have a go down a slalom course. I ain't a bad skier, and the chopper jock ain't gunna put me in any danger, because i'll throw the handle at him a long time before he does.....what he does to himself.............


Cheers
Jas
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 13:26
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Small soap box

Hopefully it turns out this was all computer graphics and we can all get down off our soap boxes

Unfortunatley, i don't think that the graphic guys are that good...............


And I know we won't be getting off our soap boxes any time soon...not whilst our controlling body is heavily handedly reactive, instead of pro-active.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 13:27
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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its kinda like the dead horse you have to flog because there is nothing else to do
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