View Poll Results: Are you likely to sign the petition?
Yes. I agree with the Petition.
327
75.69%
I agree with the Petition but am concerned at reprisals.
61
14.12%
No.
10
2.31%
I disagree with the Petition.
34
7.87%
Voters: 432. This poll is closed
No Confidence. Vote here.
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Spike has the floor.
There is a logic in FS argument. I, for one would like to hear a little more.
Ponder this: finally somebody does look at the mass of signatures on the petition and decide to investigate the allegations of unfair treatment etc. If the petition is the first and only place that person sees your name and signature you will be perceived as just another person getting on the band wagon with no gripe to investigate. It will detract from the arguments of our colleagues who have a legitimate and documented reason for complaint.
The industry must have a solution and a reconciliation; we do need to able to work with the regulator. BUT we need to have some professional, operational respect and a belief that probity, reasonableness and ethical values are freely available to all.
Floors yours Spike.
Last edited by Kharon; 1st Dec 2011 at 23:54. Reason: Fast type typing.
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For what it is worth
Thanks Kharon, I've said all I thought I should say. It is up to others to take the advice or ignore it. I would hope that others that feel they have been wronged formalize their complaints.
A petition itself will, I fear, not sway any fair adjudicator or investigator to act. If the "undersigned" have a case history to support their signature and their complaints have not been followed, then that is damnable in itself and difficult for any regulator to hide behind ignorance.
A petition itself will, I fear, not sway any fair adjudicator or investigator to act. If the "undersigned" have a case history to support their signature and their complaints have not been followed, then that is damnable in itself and difficult for any regulator to hide behind ignorance.
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It's worth plenty
Fair call. Spike makes a fair point and, it should be valid. I would normally, over a beer, agree that it was a fair argument, well reasoned.
The current situation, I believe is well and truly beyond the norm; there are crook operators, there are pilots who are a worry and, there is normally a bit of 'griping' about the 'local' regulator, anywhere in the world you care to go. Such is normal situation that 'professional' regulators and industry enjoy. Bit like the old ATC/ATS Christmas drinks; a great PR exercise, the ATC boys pay out the pilots, pilots return the favour and by New Year, the barking and spitting of the last 12 months is gone, dead and (mostly) forgotten; such is life.
The plan is to generate enough support through the petition to be able to give interested, sympathetic politicians enough horse power to call for an enquiry into the current administration through the tabled reports. There exists 10 such reports; which have publicly available (real) evidence to support them; these reports are the 'evidence' we wish to have to have examined, impartially and in detail by the Senate.
The common or garden pollie has absolutely no juice against this department, they'd be better off trying to stuff a wet noodle up a tigers jaxie. So. it just won't do,
Sadly without unlimited time and serious money, there is nowhere tangible or affordable to go, other than the Senate Estimates.
Without significant' public support, there is no 'fear factor' to drive the pollies. The fear should be clearly defined. The only safety CASA management are interested in,sadly, is their own. This is where the CASA need to be exposed. If 'we' can show the Senate that the current system is unsound and there is a safety case to answer, the Senate is then made publicly aware of it, on the record. The blood will then be on their hands, not ours.
The next time a twelve month prior warning that an accident was inevitable is ignored will hopefully be the last, ever.
Handing over - Spike ?, any body sensible??.
The current situation, I believe is well and truly beyond the norm; there are crook operators, there are pilots who are a worry and, there is normally a bit of 'griping' about the 'local' regulator, anywhere in the world you care to go. Such is normal situation that 'professional' regulators and industry enjoy. Bit like the old ATC/ATS Christmas drinks; a great PR exercise, the ATC boys pay out the pilots, pilots return the favour and by New Year, the barking and spitting of the last 12 months is gone, dead and (mostly) forgotten; such is life.
The plan is to generate enough support through the petition to be able to give interested, sympathetic politicians enough horse power to call for an enquiry into the current administration through the tabled reports. There exists 10 such reports; which have publicly available (real) evidence to support them; these reports are the 'evidence' we wish to have to have examined, impartially and in detail by the Senate.
The common or garden pollie has absolutely no juice against this department, they'd be better off trying to stuff a wet noodle up a tigers jaxie. So. it just won't do,
Sadly without unlimited time and serious money, there is nowhere tangible or affordable to go, other than the Senate Estimates.
Without significant' public support, there is no 'fear factor' to drive the pollies. The fear should be clearly defined. The only safety CASA management are interested in,sadly, is their own. This is where the CASA need to be exposed. If 'we' can show the Senate that the current system is unsound and there is a safety case to answer, the Senate is then made publicly aware of it, on the record. The blood will then be on their hands, not ours.
The next time a twelve month prior warning that an accident was inevitable is ignored will hopefully be the last, ever.
Handing over - Spike ?, any body sensible??.
Last edited by Kharon; 2nd Dec 2011 at 23:20.
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Agreed............and for back up refer my previous posts on what the industry needs, what casa needs........Its simple. Problem is it is hard work to change.
The end game is simple. The road to recovery is just hard work.
The end game is simple. The road to recovery is just hard work.
What really happens when a Petition hits the Parliament….
THE ALP is now under mounting national pressure to act on a petition calling for a full audit of Peter Slipper's travel expenses.
The petition remains trapped in a committee headed by a Labor Party MP.
The Fisher MP on Thursday boosted Prime Minister Julia Gillard's control of Parliament when he quit the LNP and took the lucrative position of Speaker.
John Murphy, the Labor Member for Reid, is chairman of the House of Representative petitions committee which is charged with considering petitions from voters and then bringing them to parliament with recommendations.
He was one of nine Labor members who, on Thursday, rejected invitations by the Liberal Party's Christopher Pyne to stand against Mr Slipper for Speaker.
Since Tuesday, Mr Murphy has failed to answer questions from the Sunshine Coast Daily about the status of the petition which seeks a detailed examination by the Department of Finance of all Mr Slipper's expense claims for the past decade.
The petition, signed by almost 2700 locals, asks that any audit "be overseen by the National Audit Office to assist with recommendations that may produce expenditure guidelines in line with community expectations".
If also requests "that expenditure provisions be tightened to require all Members to give detail of the parliamentary or electoral business that led to an expense being incurred''.
A spokesman for Mr Murphy on Tuesday said the petitions' committee would consider questions from the Daily the following day.
On Wednesday and Thursday he said the committee had resolved to respond to the Daily in writing.
Yesterday the same spokesman, Mr Murphy's chief of staff Frans Timmerman said he did not know how long the response would take. He said it was "in the hands of bureaucrats" but didn't know which ones.
Urged to seek that advice from Mr Murphy who should know because he heads the committee, Mr Timmerman said his boss was on a school visit but didn't know how long he would be.
"I'll ask him if I see him,'' Mr Timmerman said.
On Thursday Michael Danby, Labor's Member for Melbourne Ports, in seconding his party's nomination of Mr Slipper as Speaker chose to criticise this newspaper's attempts to hold the Member for Fisher to account.
"I have observed a man who has been attacked by his local media but who in this parliament has behaved extremely honourably and has discharged his duties well,'' Mr Danby said.
"Despite his reputation in the local newspapers-which have seemed to me to have political axes to grind-he has a great affinity with human rights."
But Coast pensioners are furious that Mr Slipper charged taxpayers' $57,000 for taxis, cars and limos which is considerably more than the annual $52,000 household income in his electorate.
Former Fisher Liberal Andrew Champion said on Friday that Mr Slipper had only ever done service to himself.
At some point in the New Year when Parliament resumes its rules will require that Mr Murphy and his committee to present the Sunshine Coast petition for determination.
Parliamentarians will then by their actions show if they consider it reasonable, as Mr Slipper has done, to bill taxpayers nearly $7000 for travel during 15 days when parliament is in recess or to run up a taxi fare of $310 for a night on the town.
Mr Danby clearly finds such behaviour acceptable.
Meanwhile The Australian newspaper today reported that the Australian Federal Police have widened an investigation into the use of travel expenses by Peter Slipper's office.
The Daily understands the investigation relates to the use of a fuel card by a staffer within Mr Slipper's office.
The AFP probe was first revealed in a story in the Daily in April this year.
At the time, Mr Slipper declined to comment on the police search except to issue a statement through his spokesman saying AFP officers had seized "certain documents".
Mr Slipper was on on a 43-day "study trip" in Europe with his wife Inge which cost taxpayers more than $25,000.
At the time, Mr Slipper's spokesman denied the office had been "raided" and said the MP's office had "cooperated fully" with the AFP officers. He said no computers were taken from the office, only documents.
The Australian today reported that Mr Slipper's travel and office expenses have totalled about $1.8 million since 2007, including regular $280 travel taxi trips between Brisbane airport and his home on the Coast.
In the first half of this year, he has spent almost $1100 a day on airfares, taxis, commonwealth cars and office supplies - double that of the nation's most frugal MP.
Mr Slipper's expense bill for between January 1 and June 30 this year is $194,297.98 - well down on the more than $700,000 he spent last year. However, his expenses normally go up in the second half of the year.
As the Daily has previously reported, Mr Slipper regularly racks up taxi bills of hundreds of dollars each time, with drivers reporting that he has them wait for him for lengthy periods.
Questions have been continually raised over why he continues to fly to Canberra via Sydney.
In the past, Mr Slipper has always justified his travel on the basis of 'parliamentary' and electorate business but refused to detail his trips to the Daily - or the public benefit of them.
Mr Slipper refused to return calls to the media yesterday.
He was personally invited by the Daily to write an open letter to the people of the Sunshine Coast detailing why he had backed Labor in taking on the Speaker's role, despite being elected by almost 40,000 LNP supporters.
His message bank was overflowing with unanswered calls.
The invitation to Mr Slipper remains open.
The petition remains trapped in a committee headed by a Labor Party MP.
The Fisher MP on Thursday boosted Prime Minister Julia Gillard's control of Parliament when he quit the LNP and took the lucrative position of Speaker.
John Murphy, the Labor Member for Reid, is chairman of the House of Representative petitions committee which is charged with considering petitions from voters and then bringing them to parliament with recommendations.
He was one of nine Labor members who, on Thursday, rejected invitations by the Liberal Party's Christopher Pyne to stand against Mr Slipper for Speaker.
Since Tuesday, Mr Murphy has failed to answer questions from the Sunshine Coast Daily about the status of the petition which seeks a detailed examination by the Department of Finance of all Mr Slipper's expense claims for the past decade.
The petition, signed by almost 2700 locals, asks that any audit "be overseen by the National Audit Office to assist with recommendations that may produce expenditure guidelines in line with community expectations".
If also requests "that expenditure provisions be tightened to require all Members to give detail of the parliamentary or electoral business that led to an expense being incurred''.
A spokesman for Mr Murphy on Tuesday said the petitions' committee would consider questions from the Daily the following day.
On Wednesday and Thursday he said the committee had resolved to respond to the Daily in writing.
Yesterday the same spokesman, Mr Murphy's chief of staff Frans Timmerman said he did not know how long the response would take. He said it was "in the hands of bureaucrats" but didn't know which ones.
Urged to seek that advice from Mr Murphy who should know because he heads the committee, Mr Timmerman said his boss was on a school visit but didn't know how long he would be.
"I'll ask him if I see him,'' Mr Timmerman said.
On Thursday Michael Danby, Labor's Member for Melbourne Ports, in seconding his party's nomination of Mr Slipper as Speaker chose to criticise this newspaper's attempts to hold the Member for Fisher to account.
"I have observed a man who has been attacked by his local media but who in this parliament has behaved extremely honourably and has discharged his duties well,'' Mr Danby said.
"Despite his reputation in the local newspapers-which have seemed to me to have political axes to grind-he has a great affinity with human rights."
But Coast pensioners are furious that Mr Slipper charged taxpayers' $57,000 for taxis, cars and limos which is considerably more than the annual $52,000 household income in his electorate.
Former Fisher Liberal Andrew Champion said on Friday that Mr Slipper had only ever done service to himself.
At some point in the New Year when Parliament resumes its rules will require that Mr Murphy and his committee to present the Sunshine Coast petition for determination.
Parliamentarians will then by their actions show if they consider it reasonable, as Mr Slipper has done, to bill taxpayers nearly $7000 for travel during 15 days when parliament is in recess or to run up a taxi fare of $310 for a night on the town.
Mr Danby clearly finds such behaviour acceptable.
Meanwhile The Australian newspaper today reported that the Australian Federal Police have widened an investigation into the use of travel expenses by Peter Slipper's office.
The Daily understands the investigation relates to the use of a fuel card by a staffer within Mr Slipper's office.
The AFP probe was first revealed in a story in the Daily in April this year.
At the time, Mr Slipper declined to comment on the police search except to issue a statement through his spokesman saying AFP officers had seized "certain documents".
Mr Slipper was on on a 43-day "study trip" in Europe with his wife Inge which cost taxpayers more than $25,000.
At the time, Mr Slipper's spokesman denied the office had been "raided" and said the MP's office had "cooperated fully" with the AFP officers. He said no computers were taken from the office, only documents.
The Australian today reported that Mr Slipper's travel and office expenses have totalled about $1.8 million since 2007, including regular $280 travel taxi trips between Brisbane airport and his home on the Coast.
In the first half of this year, he has spent almost $1100 a day on airfares, taxis, commonwealth cars and office supplies - double that of the nation's most frugal MP.
Mr Slipper's expense bill for between January 1 and June 30 this year is $194,297.98 - well down on the more than $700,000 he spent last year. However, his expenses normally go up in the second half of the year.
As the Daily has previously reported, Mr Slipper regularly racks up taxi bills of hundreds of dollars each time, with drivers reporting that he has them wait for him for lengthy periods.
Questions have been continually raised over why he continues to fly to Canberra via Sydney.
In the past, Mr Slipper has always justified his travel on the basis of 'parliamentary' and electorate business but refused to detail his trips to the Daily - or the public benefit of them.
Mr Slipper refused to return calls to the media yesterday.
He was personally invited by the Daily to write an open letter to the people of the Sunshine Coast detailing why he had backed Labor in taking on the Speaker's role, despite being elected by almost 40,000 LNP supporters.
His message bank was overflowing with unanswered calls.
The invitation to Mr Slipper remains open.
You should try to organise the petitioning Senator to wave the petition around while saying “Peace for our time!”
Kharon again....agreed, very well said!
Although I believe with a bit of coaching ( I believe it's called "lobbying") that Senators (like Senator X and Senator Fawcett) will take on the challenge of exposing the regulator for all its faults and failings.
In fact I believe Senator X can already smell a rat! He also has the destinct advantage of being independent and he loves a good cause (ala Mr Kessing)!
Although I believe with a bit of coaching ( I believe it's called "lobbying") that Senators (like Senator X and Senator Fawcett) will take on the challenge of exposing the regulator for all its faults and failings.
In fact I believe Senator X can already smell a rat! He also has the destinct advantage of being independent and he loves a good cause (ala Mr Kessing)!
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Xmas came early
There are some, who would use a very trite political situation in the House of Reps to say, in an oblique manner, petitions are a wasted, political game. They are when the Reps are trying to cook a Turkey for Xmas. However;
I say, that time spent meeting Senators, presenting logical, clear, easily provable argument, the right answers and the odd insider truth, to fair minded men, who don't appreciate being told to 'buzz off' by public servants is never, not ever wasted.
Every camel, no matter how 'robust' can only carry so much straw.
Friends, we have got. Support, or logical argument (disagreement if it pleases you) always welcome.
Sign here
Selah.
I say, that time spent meeting Senators, presenting logical, clear, easily provable argument, the right answers and the odd insider truth, to fair minded men, who don't appreciate being told to 'buzz off' by public servants is never, not ever wasted.
Every camel, no matter how 'robust' can only carry so much straw.
Friends, we have got. Support, or logical argument (disagreement if it pleases you) always welcome.
Sign here
Selah.
Last edited by Kharon; 2nd Dec 2011 at 19:29.
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There are 2 points of view here, I am locked in agreement with Clinton, the system will rally to protect irself, there is too much to lose if those pesky citizens really get a start in questioning the public service.
On the other hand Karon and the pesky citizens have a legitimate list of anomalies they would like answers for and accountability for the past alleged misdemeanors of individuals they should hold in high regard.
My experience with petitions is not at all good, they tend to sit in minor committees get covered in obsfucation and ultimately dissapear into oblivion.
Much better to lobby like minded and robust Senators or Reps aspiring to the front bench, they can get a lot more done.
On the other hand Karon and the pesky citizens have a legitimate list of anomalies they would like answers for and accountability for the past alleged misdemeanors of individuals they should hold in high regard.
My experience with petitions is not at all good, they tend to sit in minor committees get covered in obsfucation and ultimately dissapear into oblivion.
Much better to lobby like minded and robust Senators or Reps aspiring to the front bench, they can get a lot more done.
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Reactive vs predictive
The problem is not as complex as some may think.
The fact is this - the system is sick, very very sick. Some of us here irrespective of how we articulate our concerns are simply saying this - "there is enough evidence, awareness, understanding and warnings currently sitting out there within Australian aviation to show that we are headed down a path towards a smoking hole".
Now for the truth serum, a practical and accurate lesson of where we are headed. I post this below not for shock value, exaggeration or for piss taking but rather to show the other side of the coin as to what is going to happen if powerful people in our country don't wake up from the laconic stupor and overflowing troughs they have their unconscionable snouts buried in ;
The bureaucracies and corporate grubs who have set the wheels in motion should hang their heads in shame. Perhaps some of these very individuals
should try investigating a crater in the ground that was formally a functioning aircraft with 100+ passengers onboard? Breathe in the aroma of kerosene and burnt flesh as you sift out pieces of aircraft and flesh that are no larger than
a tennis ball? Its an amazing experience and one you never forget, especially when showering 4 days later and you can still smell it in your hair and under your nails, no amount of antiseptic soap with its strong pungent aroma will immediately cover over the smell off death and destruction. Then maybe explain this to the families, friends and airline colleagues of the human beings that have perished. Nothing beats rare occasion that you have identifiable wreckage - a baby's torso, luggage including Xmas presents and family photos,
in the wreckage you even find a pilots cap still crisp and clean on the outside still but with mattered hair and scalp on the inside.
Shall I continue? No, I thought not.
So next time somebody accuses me of being a rude a#shole, an authority anti- crusader or any other capricious name then I challenge you to experience as I have done the aftermath of politics, greed and incompetence.
It may sound like a cliche but I actually have a moral compass, I see death on the horizon and cannot sleep easy until I have said my bit, made my peace and laid down in the bed I have made. Can others do the same?
I have fought the fine fight as far as it can go. My energy is low, my willpower is diminished, my spirit has been broken. I no longer can bare to be part of this industry, I can no longer carry the burden and fear of the pending accident that will change Australia and out aviation way of life forever.
I wish all of you, my friends and enemies the safest of futures and the best in life.
Gobbledock signing off.
In the words of the immortal Kharon - Selah
Tick tock.
The fact is this - the system is sick, very very sick. Some of us here irrespective of how we articulate our concerns are simply saying this - "there is enough evidence, awareness, understanding and warnings currently sitting out there within Australian aviation to show that we are headed down a path towards a smoking hole".
Now for the truth serum, a practical and accurate lesson of where we are headed. I post this below not for shock value, exaggeration or for piss taking but rather to show the other side of the coin as to what is going to happen if powerful people in our country don't wake up from the laconic stupor and overflowing troughs they have their unconscionable snouts buried in ;
The bureaucracies and corporate grubs who have set the wheels in motion should hang their heads in shame. Perhaps some of these very individuals
should try investigating a crater in the ground that was formally a functioning aircraft with 100+ passengers onboard? Breathe in the aroma of kerosene and burnt flesh as you sift out pieces of aircraft and flesh that are no larger than
a tennis ball? Its an amazing experience and one you never forget, especially when showering 4 days later and you can still smell it in your hair and under your nails, no amount of antiseptic soap with its strong pungent aroma will immediately cover over the smell off death and destruction. Then maybe explain this to the families, friends and airline colleagues of the human beings that have perished. Nothing beats rare occasion that you have identifiable wreckage - a baby's torso, luggage including Xmas presents and family photos,
in the wreckage you even find a pilots cap still crisp and clean on the outside still but with mattered hair and scalp on the inside.
Shall I continue? No, I thought not.
So next time somebody accuses me of being a rude a#shole, an authority anti- crusader or any other capricious name then I challenge you to experience as I have done the aftermath of politics, greed and incompetence.
It may sound like a cliche but I actually have a moral compass, I see death on the horizon and cannot sleep easy until I have said my bit, made my peace and laid down in the bed I have made. Can others do the same?
I have fought the fine fight as far as it can go. My energy is low, my willpower is diminished, my spirit has been broken. I no longer can bare to be part of this industry, I can no longer carry the burden and fear of the pending accident that will change Australia and out aviation way of life forever.
I wish all of you, my friends and enemies the safest of futures and the best in life.
Gobbledock signing off.
In the words of the immortal Kharon - Selah
Tick tock.
Last edited by gobbledock; 2nd Dec 2011 at 11:53.
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Aw !, Gee Whiz GD.
It's the smoking hole created by stealth that drives me nuts. If the regulator could be trusted not to criminally prosecute every 'lost paper clip' perhaps, the industry would open it's operations to allow a worthwhile safety audit, which may reveal an overlooked deficiency. Now that, would be worthwhile and welcome.
But when things are hidden, out of fear and an accident results from that, well, as Clinton rightly points out; they will circle the wagons and have paperwork enough to cover every single fat arse. This is the one I dread, where the real cause may never be known or lost to reason.
Richard: "And thus I clothe my naked villany
With odd old ends stol'n out of holy writ,
And seem a saint, when most I play the devil."
With odd old ends stol'n out of holy writ,
And seem a saint, when most I play the devil."
King Richard III.
Thanks for your great contributions, I know you'll keep an eye proceedings. Thought you'd appreciate :-
Thought you'd appreciate :-Leonato: I pray thee peace, I will be flesh and blood;
For there was never yet philosopher
That could endure the toothache patiently,
However they have writ the style of gods,
And made a push at chance and sufferance.
For there was never yet philosopher
That could endure the toothache patiently,
However they have writ the style of gods,
And made a push at chance and sufferance.
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The common or garden pollie has absolutely no juice against this department, they'd be better off trying to stuff a wet noodle up a tigers jaxie.
Of course once an incident happens, they all suddenly become instant experts and start gobbing off in the press trying to convince their electorate that they were well informed all along. Just ask the Qld government Ministers about Dams, these days they all know everything there is to know about operating manuals, fuse plug walls et al. Prior to Janurary? They're big holes with water in them, right?
There's an old public service adage; your job is to keep the Minister off the front page. Nothing about safety, nothing about efficiency, nothing about getting the job done right...just don't let the bugger look bad and we all stay friends. If you guys can make the bugger look bad in the press, he just might start taking an interest. Or maybe not, maybe he won't care unless there's a big smoking hole. However, he's more likely to care if the press are talking about big smoking hole potential due to CASA's inability to act. How about TN/ACA etc? You have to use whatever tools come to hand.
the rest of you
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T28 D's Good point.
Another good point raised by an innocent man.
Much better to lobby like minded and robust Senators or Reps aspiring to the front bench, they can get a lot more done.
Thing is – JQ and others, individually are just that, one small whinging voice in the political wilderness, the sound of one hand clapping. Even the most dedicated, aviation aware pollie is hardly likely to break wind, let alone spend time and effort sorting out one CASA labelled ' serious safety issue ', because of one disgruntled "bad boy" whinge against a decided FOI, supported by 'Head' office.
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In CASA defence. (I know).
O4 FFS. Mate, this last and your previous posts suggests some pages stuck together. In this instance CASA are probably acting in a manner which suggests, without all the facts to hand, correct over sight when it come to your "pet operator".
Quote Ledsled -
Re. the AMSAR Dornier, as these SAR operators have all sorts of low level approvals, has it occurred to the critics that what they were doing may have been completely kosher, and that is the reason why no "action" has been forthcoming from CASA???
Just a thought.
Tootle pip!!
Just a thought.
Tootle pip!!
I have a few small problems with some of the statements you make such as:-
These rogue companies argue that they are compliant; meanwhile behind the scenes they are intimidating employees, taking shortcuts with maintenance and making political power plays to keep the CASA right where they want them (i.e. lapdogs).
It's no wonder JMC won't take industry calls.
He consequently vented his spleen for 20 minutes about inexperienced checkies at his company conducting simulated EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off) in the aircraft right on rotating…. carrying out stick shaker climbs from 200ft agl (got to wonder about that one!)
The CASA have overseen the implementation of SMS and promoted the principles of a ‘Just Culture’ for the last 20 years. They have, however, been derelict in their duty to ensure these world’s best safety practices are adhered to by all sectors of the industry[
No, not a CASA task, it's up to the company Safety Management to make the system work, the issues acted on and action taken. If they don't do that, then and only then does CASA gets involved.
The CASA cannot, nor is it required to be all things to all men. It certainly is not "Mamma Bear", to wipe the arse of every snivelling junior pilot who crosses it's doorstep. To be fair, they do get asked to do this and, I have noted a level of patience and forbearance above the call of duty.
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Implementation timeline
SMS and Just Culture started making their appearance in Australian aviation around 2007. Under ICAO's framework for 'states' Australia, NZ, Canada are ahead of the game, the FAA is yet to implement either so I'm not sure where the '20 years statement' originated from but it is incorrect. The last 4 to 5 years predominately is a more accurate figure.
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Psychic Sarcs.
How 
, I was just about to do that;
The Pprune poll reflects the state of play very well, for the interested parties. Thanks Mods.
It is difficult to get an accurate fix on what the 'average' industry fellahin think. However:- Numbers Week 1.
Pprune data.
The thread has 6000 reads, but of these 2000 rightfully belonged to the merged thread. The 'unknowable' is how many of the 'reads' are multiple offenders, I for example have been checking the thread twice a day, so the number of reads is too 'fluffy' an element to be much use for drawing conclusions. Except only 200 odd readers bothered to use the poll, which is a shame.
Of these, as you see, 173 agreed with and/or signed. There were a handful of No votes which is to be expected, particularly if folk were honest and could not agree to the petition 'as writ', or who just thought it wrong. Double that amount of folk 'disagreed'.
Petition data.
Here again I have no expertise; I assume that a percentage of the 'views' are from folk who read petitions as an on line hobby, much as pilots read 'aviation' related topics elsewhere, so it's difficult to extract 'hard' data from that value. I believe there are 200 signatures on the petition, which isn't bad, considering. It does pretty much reflect the Pprune poll data though.
The "best" numbers are unofficial. I had almost double the existing signatures from people who would love to sign, but dare not within the first 3 days. This is the real number to my mind; of course, they are totally bloody useless in any practical sense, but it confirms one fact; this is one scared industry.
The problem is of course what does it all mean, the temptation to 'spin' the numbers into lies, damn lies or statistics is obvious (who said that?). When you think it through you could make just about any claim you wanted to. Not for me though, as it stands, I can't take a pitiful 200 signatures to a Senator and ask for an enquiry based on the petition, no matter how much 'they' would love to do it.
I can understand the fear, I can relate to philosophical and conscious disagreement, but I object, most strongly to apathy.
This industry has some serious problems. So it's more people signing the petition, or it's curtains I'm afraid.
Just been talking to a bloke who knows what he is on about (for a change, yeah, yeah). The way he views it is; out of 6000 "reads" on this section of a very "limited" audience platform, the most "Unique" reads would be say about 1200 ( individual IP adressess). If this is the case, then 200 signatures and 73% support is a bloody good effort. Well done guys.
, I was just about to do that; The Pprune poll reflects the state of play very well, for the interested parties. Thanks Mods.
It is difficult to get an accurate fix on what the 'average' industry fellahin think. However:- Numbers Week 1.
Pprune data.
The thread has 6000 reads, but of these 2000 rightfully belonged to the merged thread. The 'unknowable' is how many of the 'reads' are multiple offenders, I for example have been checking the thread twice a day, so the number of reads is too 'fluffy' an element to be much use for drawing conclusions. Except only 200 odd readers bothered to use the poll, which is a shame.
Of these, as you see, 173 agreed with and/or signed. There were a handful of No votes which is to be expected, particularly if folk were honest and could not agree to the petition 'as writ', or who just thought it wrong. Double that amount of folk 'disagreed'.
Petition data.
Here again I have no expertise; I assume that a percentage of the 'views' are from folk who read petitions as an on line hobby, much as pilots read 'aviation' related topics elsewhere, so it's difficult to extract 'hard' data from that value. I believe there are 200 signatures on the petition, which isn't bad, considering. It does pretty much reflect the Pprune poll data though.
The "best" numbers are unofficial. I had almost double the existing signatures from people who would love to sign, but dare not within the first 3 days. This is the real number to my mind; of course, they are totally bloody useless in any practical sense, but it confirms one fact; this is one scared industry.
The problem is of course what does it all mean, the temptation to 'spin' the numbers into lies, damn lies or statistics is obvious (who said that?). When you think it through you could make just about any claim you wanted to. Not for me though, as it stands, I can't take a pitiful 200 signatures to a Senator and ask for an enquiry based on the petition, no matter how much 'they' would love to do it.
I can understand the fear, I can relate to philosophical and conscious disagreement, but I object, most strongly to apathy.
This industry has some serious problems. So it's more people signing the petition, or it's curtains I'm afraid.
Just been talking to a bloke who knows what he is on about (for a change, yeah, yeah). The way he views it is; out of 6000 "reads" on this section of a very "limited" audience platform, the most "Unique" reads would be say about 1200 ( individual IP adressess). If this is the case, then 200 signatures and 73% support is a bloody good effort. Well done guys.
Last edited by Kharon; 4th Dec 2011 at 23:57. Reason: New info - stats.
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Pineapples
Perhaps unofficially CASA are listening?
In the past few months 2 field office managers have been sidelined and placed in 'projects', 1 HR manager forced to walk the green mile and now a team leader FOI had been moved sideways into 'projects'!
I have also heard that with each of the above mentioned 'moves' the troops were virtually partying in the hallways and celebrating as if it was early Xmas!
In the past few months 2 field office managers have been sidelined and placed in 'projects', 1 HR manager forced to walk the green mile and now a team leader FOI had been moved sideways into 'projects'!
I have also heard that with each of the above mentioned 'moves' the troops were virtually partying in the hallways and celebrating as if it was early Xmas!
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It's a worry
Oleo -
Could be good, could be bad. Depends which group are celebrating, if it's the 'good uns', it's my shout.
If, it's the slime ball mob, then Sepuku is a valid solution.
I have also heard that with each of the above mentioned 'moves' the troops were virtually partying in the hallways and celebrating as if it was early Xmas!
Could be good, could be bad. Depends which group are celebrating, if it's the 'good uns', it's my shout.
If, it's the slime ball mob, then Sepuku is a valid solution.
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Well, well.
Spent several hours with a 'pro' market /research analyst type last evening. The guy and his company do serious computer based work on this type of thing, some of the things they can do, through their models is truly remarkable. Well, as a favour to an 'old mate' he had a look at the "numbers" for the petition, the Pprune poll and the informal data. Thanks Michael.
I learned a great deal, but mostly, to never, ever trust any form of 'poll' or survey data unless I have full access to all the numbers. What they can do is seriously mind blowing. Anyway, I digress.
I asked for as honest an appraisal as possible, given the data limitations. There was a bit of 'sorting out' to be done first, in short, the average 'daily' unique visitors (logged in) needed to be assessed. Of these, there needed to be a 'cull' of those who had specific interest topics and those that simply did not bother to read the thread. This was further complicated by the "merged' thread factor. This was a remarkable process, done through computer models, based against 'normal' market research demographics and research. Anyway, the figure we agreed for 'unique' readers, solely interested in the petition was between 1000 and 1200.
This 'translated' into 20% of the readers were prepared to sign a petition.
Considering (he says) the very small sample of industry, being those that actually read Pprune, further reduced by those who did not bother, or have not yet read the thread plus the 'unofficial' numbers that were not counted (I would not allow them included), in this guys opinion, we have a winner in a short space of time
The really 'big hitter' though, if we had simply gone for support of people hammered by the CASA would have been enormous, this from the "Birds" thread data (Paul Phelan), that one is a 'monster', according to Mike.
He suggests a 'proper' survey, supported by a press release would pretty much ensure that an enquiry of some sort would have to be mounted.
I'll play - Over to you guys.
Selah.
Last edited by Kharon; 5th Dec 2011 at 22:23.