Legal Question - Flying From Private Property?
Sunfish,
Land use is the all important criteria, as already mentioned. Victoria being the nanny state that it is has too many roadblocks to Enjoying Yourself, it's just not allowed these days!
I have 'grandfather' rights to helicopter operations in my property, and was also the only industry support that Lindsay Fox received during his appeal to the Mornington Shire's decision to stop him using his pre-existing landing area. The objectors tried to argue that his pilot and I hadn't landed there when we claimed as they hadn't seen us do so: the Judge was quick to put them back in their box, and found in Fox's favour. To the chagrin of Mrs Ballieu and company....
Interestingly, one item that objectors inevitably try to use and is always rejected by VCAT is the property values argument. What will always carry a lot of weight, though, is the 'loss of, or perceived loss of amenities' case. Essentially noise, traffic, etc come into that argument and it is a very powerful one when used in VCAT. So make sure that no-one will be able to use it
Land use is the all important criteria, as already mentioned. Victoria being the nanny state that it is has too many roadblocks to Enjoying Yourself, it's just not allowed these days!
I have 'grandfather' rights to helicopter operations in my property, and was also the only industry support that Lindsay Fox received during his appeal to the Mornington Shire's decision to stop him using his pre-existing landing area. The objectors tried to argue that his pilot and I hadn't landed there when we claimed as they hadn't seen us do so: the Judge was quick to put them back in their box, and found in Fox's favour. To the chagrin of Mrs Ballieu and company....
Interestingly, one item that objectors inevitably try to use and is always rejected by VCAT is the property values argument. What will always carry a lot of weight, though, is the 'loss of, or perceived loss of amenities' case. Essentially noise, traffic, etc come into that argument and it is a very powerful one when used in VCAT. So make sure that no-one will be able to use it
Thread Starter
Thank you all for your replies and advice especially Mr. Eacott.
Regarding VCAT and land use, perceived loss of amenity, etc, I would imagine that if I can prove that the aircraft noise footprint meets Australian standards ANEF 20 contour, is quieter than a chain saw, etc., etc. then case closed.
I think I can easily achieve this using a Rotax 912 which meets European noise standards.
Jaba, your video has a distinct relationship to what I had in mind, but with a little more tree clearance.
As for the boat, ever heard of Raymond Island?
Regarding VCAT and land use, perceived loss of amenity, etc, I would imagine that if I can prove that the aircraft noise footprint meets Australian standards ANEF 20 contour, is quieter than a chain saw, etc., etc. then case closed.
I think I can easily achieve this using a Rotax 912 which meets European noise standards.
Jaba, your video has a distinct relationship to what I had in mind, but with a little more tree clearance.
As for the boat, ever heard of Raymond Island?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
but with a little more tree clearance
But there are ways....
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 67
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Think about it. You've got friend over for a BBQ and you hear a sound equal to a chainsaw overhead as the neighbour does circuits and takes his mates up all day. Previously all you would hear were the native birds. That's loss of amenity, and that would be a key issue at VCAT.
Since you mention Raymond Island, the bigger picture of the present Raymond Island environment, and how that may be altered would be an even bigger issue.
Since you mention Raymond Island, the bigger picture of the present Raymond Island environment, and how that may be altered would be an even bigger issue.
Thread Starter
Shrike, I checked with a local and Raymond Island is already inhabited by a helicopter and an aircraft on its own strip, as well as the birds and Koalas.
The question is what is "reasonable", a previous poster has stated that "reasonable" is 10 to 20 movements a day in NSW. My definition would be about 4 to 6. As for circuits and low flying, I agree, either invite the neighbours for a joy ride or don't do it.
The other issue is that "loss of amenity" cuts both ways. A little Rotax noise for a few minutes weighs up pretty well to avoiding a Five hour drive from Melbourne.
The question is what is "reasonable", a previous poster has stated that "reasonable" is 10 to 20 movements a day in NSW. My definition would be about 4 to 6. As for circuits and low flying, I agree, either invite the neighbours for a joy ride or don't do it.
The other issue is that "loss of amenity" cuts both ways. A little Rotax noise for a few minutes weighs up pretty well to avoiding a Five hour drive from Melbourne.
Thread Starter
Nobody to take on...yet. Might just buy the land and stick a caravan on it. Build a house after neighbours neutralised or pacified. If not, move elsewhere.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A private strip which i operate to for the owner of our aircraft (in NSW), had to be DA approved by council before we could prepare the land for use. It's located well away from suburbia which was a help. There was an objection from 1 neighbour, and 1 tree hugger/bird watcher group. Climb performance data satisfied the tree hugger/bird watcher group, and the only way we could keep the neighbour happy was with a restriction of daylight ops only, for our aircraft only, and a maximum of 500 movements per year.
I don't know who is counting how many movements we make per year, i'm certainly not counting
I don't know who is counting how many movements we make per year, i'm certainly not counting
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fun or not, he's on the money.
Retirement plans encompassing a house on 10 acres on Raymond Island (Paynesville), a 40 ft yacht at your own private jetty or a jetty nearby and a private airstrip at your back door for flying out to visit your grandchildren. Doesn't get much better than that.
The only problem is the stupid ferry that you have to use every time you want to go shopping or to civilisation and for 6 months of the year there it's like Alaska - cold and crap.
Retirement plans encompassing a house on 10 acres on Raymond Island (Paynesville), a 40 ft yacht at your own private jetty or a jetty nearby and a private airstrip at your back door for flying out to visit your grandchildren. Doesn't get much better than that.
The only problem is the stupid ferry that you have to use every time you want to go shopping or to civilisation and for 6 months of the year there it's like Alaska - cold and crap.
Shrike, I checked with a local and Raymond Island is already inhabited by a helicopter and an aircraft on its own strip, as well as the birds and Koalas.
The question is what is "reasonable", a previous poster has stated that "reasonable" is 10 to 20 movements a day in NSW. My definition would be about 4 to 6. As for circuits and low flying, I agree, either invite the neighbours for a joy ride or don't do it.
The other issue is that "loss of amenity" cuts both ways. A little Rotax noise for a few minutes weighs up pretty well to avoiding a Five hour drive from Melbourne.
The question is what is "reasonable", a previous poster has stated that "reasonable" is 10 to 20 movements a day in NSW. My definition would be about 4 to 6. As for circuits and low flying, I agree, either invite the neighbours for a joy ride or don't do it.
The other issue is that "loss of amenity" cuts both ways. A little Rotax noise for a few minutes weighs up pretty well to avoiding a Five hour drive from Melbourne.
IIRC, Victoria considers <2 movements a week to be reasonable, so be prepared for a bun fight if you want > 2 a day! Loss of amenities is the argument for the objectors and will not factor into any argument put up by the proponent to the contrary, ie saving a 5 hour drive. Your improvement in life is not an argument to detract from your neighbours perceived loss of amenity in the eyes of VCAT.
Unfortunately taking the neighbours for a ride is a chicken and egg situation, as you shouldn't be operating to give them the flight(s) until you have planning permission for which you need them not to object!!
It seems that we now have in this country a culture of selfishness. I live in a small town in country Vic, where a new Hungry Jacks store is being planned, however there is fierce opposition from only 2 locals. The fact that they love 1km away from the proposed site does not matter to them. when asked why they are opposing the Hungry jacks they answered " we don't approve of that sort of food", when asked about the need for jobs for young people in the town their response was "we are not concerned about jobs". So there we have it, if you don't want something, just because you don't like it, you can object.
That strip in Newcastle is interesting, the report made me sick. Amenity of views, have a look at the area on google earth, the "wetlands' are a ghastly wasteland, strewen with rubbish and debris. additionally, there are large industrial warehouses nearby and......high tension powerlines. These people make me sick. You cant see the runway, or the hangars from the back yards of the houses.
That strip in Newcastle is interesting, the report made me sick. Amenity of views, have a look at the area on google earth, the "wetlands' are a ghastly wasteland, strewen with rubbish and debris. additionally, there are large industrial warehouses nearby and......high tension powerlines. These people make me sick. You cant see the runway, or the hangars from the back yards of the houses.
Just do it and see what happens. The worst thing you can do is ask, even on a pilots forum.
I set up my own strip. A neighbor clearly stated (to me) that is should have been "advertised" as a development by the council. I told him no permission was required. 5 years later there have been no complaints that I know of.
I set up my own strip. A neighbor clearly stated (to me) that is should have been "advertised" as a development by the council. I told him no permission was required. 5 years later there have been no complaints that I know of.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Idlewild Peake
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunfish,
I have spoken to you before about my private strip north of Melbourne.
In a previous life I was involved in the management of a private aerodrome and accumulated some knowledge about airfield requirements from the local council, CASA and Pprune!
I believed someone who told me that no one can stop you landing your own private plane on your own private property -there is a distinction here between an airfield for yourself only (or maybe the odd visitor) and an aerodrome open to anyone. The aerodrome requires council approval which, in my area, can take two years. So I mowed and smoothed an area on my farm, bought an appropriate aircraft and landed it there. Didn't ask anyone - just did it.
Turns out that one of my neighbours, who I had seen watching me prepare the strip, reported me to the police who arrived two hours after my landing. They told me that there had been a complaint and they were checking to see if I had broken the law. I told them that I hadn't and that they could check with CASA.
CASA told the police that there is something in the constitution which allows me to do what I did. The police told that to the whinging neighbour who then complained to CASA directly and also to the council. CASA sent me a nice email telling me about the complaint and that they would be taking no action unless I was doing something dangerous. The council enforcement department sent two heavies who accused me of excavating without a planning permit. I asked them if you needed a permit to plough - they declined to answer and left.
My strip is a long way off complying with the CAAP but my aircraft is specifically designed to operate from a strip like mine and I only fly once or twice per fortnight.
The police recommended that I visit all of the neighbours in the area to tell them what I was doing and, without exception, they embraced it and encouraged me to enjoy myself. I have taken some of them for a ride.
Of course, I didn't visit the whinger.
I have spoken to you before about my private strip north of Melbourne.
In a previous life I was involved in the management of a private aerodrome and accumulated some knowledge about airfield requirements from the local council, CASA and Pprune!
I believed someone who told me that no one can stop you landing your own private plane on your own private property -there is a distinction here between an airfield for yourself only (or maybe the odd visitor) and an aerodrome open to anyone. The aerodrome requires council approval which, in my area, can take two years. So I mowed and smoothed an area on my farm, bought an appropriate aircraft and landed it there. Didn't ask anyone - just did it.
Turns out that one of my neighbours, who I had seen watching me prepare the strip, reported me to the police who arrived two hours after my landing. They told me that there had been a complaint and they were checking to see if I had broken the law. I told them that I hadn't and that they could check with CASA.
CASA told the police that there is something in the constitution which allows me to do what I did. The police told that to the whinging neighbour who then complained to CASA directly and also to the council. CASA sent me a nice email telling me about the complaint and that they would be taking no action unless I was doing something dangerous. The council enforcement department sent two heavies who accused me of excavating without a planning permit. I asked them if you needed a permit to plough - they declined to answer and left.
My strip is a long way off complying with the CAAP but my aircraft is specifically designed to operate from a strip like mine and I only fly once or twice per fortnight.
The police recommended that I visit all of the neighbours in the area to tell them what I was doing and, without exception, they embraced it and encouraged me to enjoy myself. I have taken some of them for a ride.
Of course, I didn't visit the whinger.
Last edited by uncle8; 27th Feb 2015 at 12:19.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Melbourne,Vic,Australia
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
10 acres = 4ha
So a square block would be 200mx200m
Sunfish IIRC has been building one of these:
STOL CH 750 light sport utility airplane from Zenith Aircraft Company - the ultimate short take-off and landing sport kitplane - Sport Pilot Ready
Assume they are the same as the related Savannah and the reverse of a light 172 ie TO from a tennis court but landing 100m over 50ft you'd better be perfect every time.
So a square block would be 200mx200m
Sunfish IIRC has been building one of these:
STOL CH 750 light sport utility airplane from Zenith Aircraft Company - the ultimate short take-off and landing sport kitplane - Sport Pilot Ready
Assume they are the same as the related Savannah and the reverse of a light 172 ie TO from a tennis court but landing 100m over 50ft you'd better be perfect every time.
