Legal Question - Flying From Private Property?
Thread Starter
Legal Question - Flying From Private Property?
Lets assume that Sunfish has just found Ten acres to build his "dream home" on in rural Victoria.
It's a level bush block with a nice flat area for an airstrip with no obstacles to speak of and no houses directly under the approach paths.
It's about 500m from the centre of a small town, but the nearest houses are around 350 metres away.
Assuming I bought it, and proceeded to safely fly in and out for private use only, is there any legal way for the inevitable complainer to stop me?
It's a level bush block with a nice flat area for an airstrip with no obstacles to speak of and no houses directly under the approach paths.
It's about 500m from the centre of a small town, but the nearest houses are around 350 metres away.
Assuming I bought it, and proceeded to safely fly in and out for private use only, is there any legal way for the inevitable complainer to stop me?
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Not a prayer.
At 500 metres you would get group objections from the town.
500 metres would be well inside a suitable noise buffer zone
You would lose quite a large sector on takeoff because you can't make safe height over the town.
But the killer punch is the Rural Living Zoning
Rural Living is where the town's lawyers and doctors build their McMansions, and they've got money to fight noisy hobbies
You have to go out past that fringe - maybe 10 mins or so out, then talk to all neighbours within a km or so radius. If they all agree, there's a good chance.
At 500 metres you would get group objections from the town.
500 metres would be well inside a suitable noise buffer zone
You would lose quite a large sector on takeoff because you can't make safe height over the town.
But the killer punch is the Rural Living Zoning
Rural Living is where the town's lawyers and doctors build their McMansions, and they've got money to fight noisy hobbies
You have to go out past that fringe - maybe 10 mins or so out, then talk to all neighbours within a km or so radius. If they all agree, there's a good chance.
Thread Starter
About 66db - Rotax. Easily meets European standards.
The area is a holiday/retirement area.
Exactly what powers does the Victorian Government have over private aviation?
Lindsay Fox parks his helicopter at his house in Portsea - zoned high conservation residential. What's to stop me doing something similar?
The area is a holiday/retirement area.
Exactly what powers does the Victorian Government have over private aviation?
Lindsay Fox parks his helicopter at his house in Portsea - zoned high conservation residential. What's to stop me doing something similar?
Speak to the local council? Each one would be different anyway, as no one seems to be able to standardise anything these days.
From a CASA point of you, you just have to follow the CAAP (or something just as good that would stand up in court) for ALAs, although I'm sure you'd know that sunfish.
I may not have understood this point but, you don't need to be at 1,000ft over the town if you are on Takeoff and/or Landing. You might though piss off the neighbours constantly doing that (ie; it may be friendlier to accept a downwind and go the other way if your plane allows)
From a CASA point of you, you just have to follow the CAAP (or something just as good that would stand up in court) for ALAs, although I'm sure you'd know that sunfish.
You would lose quite a large sector on takeoff because you can't make safe height over the town.
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Sunfish....
A couple of things you may not have considered:
1/there is NO SUCH THING as a "dream house" in Victoria.... it just isn't possible
2/Lindsay Fox has a lot more money to pay off councils, than I presume, you do.
good luck though
A couple of things you may not have considered:
1/there is NO SUCH THING as a "dream house" in Victoria.... it just isn't possible
Lindsay Fox parks his helicopter at his house in Portsea - zoned high conservation residential. What's to stop me doing something similar?
good luck though
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I know of several strips that have been shut down through council action due to complaints from neighbours regardless of zoning. Whilst it's legal to fly below 500ft on approach and takeoff, people still don't like low aircraft over their homes. Worst case is when other aircraft visit your place and the neighbours get jealous of you and your mates enjoying themselves, watch the fun begin. Most often strips get restrictions for a sole aircraft onle, ie. The owner.
On the flip side I know of strips operating privately for many years without issue. One that comes to mind is right in the heart of Stratford - google it. Another one is interesting, he used to get complaints from most neighbors from his 912 Skyfox (very quiet aircraft), some years later, all his neighbours (3 of them) have aircraft now (at strips elsewhere) and the horse stud that used to complain the most, now operates their own R44!
On the face of it, your proposed site does seem a little close to suburbia to be assured of 100% success.
Isn't there a rule somewhere about being 500 meters from persons not involved in aviation or is that just an RA-Aus rule?
On the flip side I know of strips operating privately for many years without issue. One that comes to mind is right in the heart of Stratford - google it. Another one is interesting, he used to get complaints from most neighbors from his 912 Skyfox (very quiet aircraft), some years later, all his neighbours (3 of them) have aircraft now (at strips elsewhere) and the horse stud that used to complain the most, now operates their own R44!
On the face of it, your proposed site does seem a little close to suburbia to be assured of 100% success.
Isn't there a rule somewhere about being 500 meters from persons not involved in aviation or is that just an RA-Aus rule?
As I understand it, the legal case is easy. The same law that underpins our right to garage a car at home applies to aircraft. Its a legal precedent that dates to the horse & buggy era. The problem is that there has never been a proper challenge, so instead there is the crazy dance between councils trying to apply made up local regulations and aircraft / helicopter owners wanting to avoid legal costs and being ostracised by neighbors.
Lindsay Fox overcame his difficulty using the pre-existing use clause. When a friend had similar problems he engaged the same lawyers to run the same argument and you've never seen a council back down faster.
Lindsay Fox overcame his difficulty using the pre-existing use clause. When a friend had similar problems he engaged the same lawyers to run the same argument and you've never seen a council back down faster.
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Tipping my hat to the differences in Vic and NSW aviation regulation, the council is certainly not in a position to tell you how to operate an aircraft. They are, however, in a strong position to tell you how you can utilise your land, particularly where it affects neighbouring property owners.
Have a look at this private strip in suburban Newcastle, which applied for permission to build a hangar:
http://www.newcastle.nsw.gov.au/__da...rt_Item_29.pdf
That application was approved, but the (potential) killer in it is this little aside:
Have a look at this private strip in suburban Newcastle, which applied for permission to build a hangar:
http://www.newcastle.nsw.gov.au/__da...rt_Item_29.pdf
That application was approved, but the (potential) killer in it is this little aside:
The objectors' concerns include: .... potential loss of property values; health and amenity impacts on neighbouring residents; ....
Sunfish,
Surprisingly, one answer would be to move to NSW.
We have some quite interesting laws defining "quiet enjoyment" of your property, and then the local nimbys and their representative on the local council cannot kybosh "reasonable" movements rates on your private property.
As I recall, "reasonable" is about 10-20 movements per week.
Of course, there are limits to how close to "town" you can be, but in an acreage lifestyle area, not too much of a problem. I love the fine print, whena it comes to a "hangar", its a nono, but a building application for a "machinery shed" will whistle through.
Tootle pip!!
Surprisingly, one answer would be to move to NSW.
We have some quite interesting laws defining "quiet enjoyment" of your property, and then the local nimbys and their representative on the local council cannot kybosh "reasonable" movements rates on your private property.
As I recall, "reasonable" is about 10-20 movements per week.
Of course, there are limits to how close to "town" you can be, but in an acreage lifestyle area, not too much of a problem. I love the fine print, whena it comes to a "hangar", its a nono, but a building application for a "machinery shed" will whistle through.
Tootle pip!!
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66dB you say?
You could whipper-snip and chop firewood all day and produce around 115dB (at the source) but no-one would give 2 sh!ts.
But an aeroplane
. That's different.
Tall poppy wankers.
You could whipper-snip and chop firewood all day and produce around 115dB (at the source) but no-one would give 2 sh!ts.
But an aeroplane
. That's different.Tall poppy wankers.
Thread Starter
Thank you all for your advice and the links to relevant cases.
Mcgrath:
My understanding is that CASA makes "recommendations" for ALA's. They are not written in stone and CASA does not "Approve" ALA's.
Just God help you if you run into something that shouldn't have been there according to CASA's recommendations, because then the area wasn't satisfactory according to AC 091 - 225.
http://www.casa.gov.au/newrules/part.../ac091-225.pdf
Mcgrath:
From a CASA point of you, you just have to follow the CAAP (or something just as good that would stand up in court) for ALAs, although I'm sure you'd know that sunfish.
Just God help you if you run into something that shouldn't have been there according to CASA's recommendations, because then the area wasn't satisfactory according to AC 091 - 225.
http://www.casa.gov.au/newrules/part.../ac091-225.pdf
Sunfish, a couple practical aspects include:
1. ensure that there are no proposed urban or hobby farm developments near your dream block - which will then scream 'loss-of-amenity' even though you were there 1st
2. check with the electricity providor re any new proposed spur lines, and give them a detailed map of your block & strip regardless.
3. check with your proposed new neighbours re the planting of trees & hedges. Your 'adequate' length strip could soon have obstacles dead inline with your runway direction, and there's nothing you can do about it....except perhaps go STOL or rotary wing!
4. try for a reasonably level block which will give you flexibility in deciding operating direction and also whether L or R circuit is more friendly. Avoid situations where you have to make a straight in to avoid overflying noise sensitive locations - you'll remember, but your mates probably won't.
happy days,
1. ensure that there are no proposed urban or hobby farm developments near your dream block - which will then scream 'loss-of-amenity' even though you were there 1st
2. check with the electricity providor re any new proposed spur lines, and give them a detailed map of your block & strip regardless.
3. check with your proposed new neighbours re the planting of trees & hedges. Your 'adequate' length strip could soon have obstacles dead inline with your runway direction, and there's nothing you can do about it....except perhaps go STOL or rotary wing!
4. try for a reasonably level block which will give you flexibility in deciding operating direction and also whether L or R circuit is more friendly. Avoid situations where you have to make a straight in to avoid overflying noise sensitive locations - you'll remember, but your mates probably won't.
happy days,
Thread Starter
Thank you for your comments Poteroo.
By the way I found a denizen of this particular area and asked him if there were likely to be problems with tree huggers, etc. The response
"Nah! No one cares. A bloke already has his own strip and aircraft and another has his own helicopter on his block."
By the way I found a denizen of this particular area and asked him if there were likely to be problems with tree huggers, etc. The response
"Nah! No one cares. A bloke already has his own strip and aircraft and another has his own helicopter on his block."
