Safety culture in GA.

[SgtBundy]

I read the decision and found it thoroughly disturbing. What is the answer in a culture like that where even if there is no explicit threats but there is plenty of "discouragement" and pressure especially in an environment with few jobs and plenty waiting in the wings?

I particularly found the meetings about icing to be absurd "just get up there and see what it is like". Even worse by the report CASA had been in there trying to improve the place yet no action was taken by management. Its unfortunate it took 3 deaths for that to come to a halt.

[aussie027]

Some excellent replies in this read.
Well done everyone!

As stated above pilots young or old need to use their brains and their voices and take a stand when being pressured by their employers to do the wrong thing and break the rules.

To all the younger pilots reading, remember, sometimes that is the ONLY way that you are going to live to be an "older" pilot!!
Is the job really worth it?? Is any job worth dying for????
Apparently there are quite a few that people think are,…trust me , they are definitely not!!

I have taken a stand on numerous occasions and am still here as a result of it.
For Eg- It cost me money on occasions but I let the CP/owner take the trip when he wanted me to go out overweight for eg.

If everything goes as planned and you bend/break the rules 99 times out of 100 you MAY get away with it, (depending on what you are trying to do). If it’s the day it doesn’t and something actually goes wrong then no one can help you when the ATSB or Feds come a looking.
IF you survived the event and depending what happened you can more than likely kiss goodbye to your licence and career. Not to mention being wide open for a lawsuit later.

YOU primarily as PIC, not your CP or Boss.

Remember your car insurance policy is not liable to pay out if you are DUI or breaking the law and have an accident. Same with your aircraft insurance AFAIK.
So who is going to pay for all that bent metal and / or peoples injuries.??

Checkboard's experience with the freight company is a classic example of how 1 person standing up and saying, "Wait a minute, that's not bloody right, I'm not going to do that and neither should the rest of us", probably saved himself and everyone else in the company at some point too. He broke the chain.

Going out 1-200kg or more overweight in some clapped out 30yo+ piston twin??.
Holy Crap, come on, using the curvature of the earth to get airborne on the clapped out aircrafts best day???
What about if today’s the day that once in a lifetime EFATO actually happens to you???
Here are 2 very wise pieces of advice given to me many years ago by my senior pilots--

REMEMBER (especially in the cockpit), “ It doesn’t matter WHO is right, it ONLY MATTERS WHAT is right”!!

ALSO REMEMBER, as a Pilot your 3 main priorities in order of importance should be—
SAFETY,….. Customer/Pax satisfaction and then Company profitability.

They should be your company's priority order too!!

Any attempt to reorder those usually ends up costing more than a few lousy dollars in the long run.
Fly safe and fly smart.

[Johnny_56]

Great thread, and some great replies.

From my (limited) experience in this industry "safety culture" like "safety management system" etc is treated like a buzz word that customers like to see around the place.

I believe to evolve a safety culture in an organization, or industry for that matter, requires leadership. In a company this needs to come from the CP & management etc. Unfortunately, as many have alluded to, hoping that a young pilot fresh into his 1st or 2nd hard fought job will not push the boundaries to try to be seen doing the 'right thing' is unrealistic. I've been there and taken off overloaded and out of balance etc, hopefully you mature fast enough to learn that you're being a knob and you're not as smart as you think you are.

Say "I wont do it that way but how about this."

In these situations CP's, managers, owners & senior pilots all have a part to play and give some advice. These senior people should be guiding the less experienced pilots out there, not turning a blind eye and hoping they learn along the way.

The AFAP has a part to play in this also. Unions should be out there pushing for better standards. This includes educating and encouraging it's members to do the right thing and what the right thing is. Other unions do this which is part of the reason safety standards in other industries have improved.

"If you think safety is expensive, wait till you've had an accident"

Fly safe kids

Johhny

[DirtySanchezcousin]

You should all read section 28 of the act and take note about where the responsibility lies

Read the decision handed down by senior member Fice RE Avtex v CASA .

Some great guys ( ex Avtex pilots) stood up during those precedings to make a real difference to minimise the risk of someone else having to die!

[Kulwin Park]

Some possible thoughts for CASA to get a better visual insight into the industry, and what rules Pilots Engineers and Operators are breaking, is to:

1. Make more instant and short-time-notice inspections, in regards to either being present on a training or charter flight in the back seat. Little notice and also not telling people that it is a CASA official in the back would help, as operators/pilots would conduct their ops the same, and maybe catch out the dodgy ones at 'tunipboy' pointed out above.
2. Make random and again short-time-notice inspections into maintenance hangars, without the 7 day notice that they are coming, giving time for operators/maintainers to cover up and hide away work that is considered Unservicable.
3. CASA to be present at more GA airports at least once or twice a month, for the day, to just observe operations, and to catch up with any people doing the wrong thing, even if just a fine free warning.

The police in every state currently do it, on our roads, inspection spots unannounced, and all in the name to reduce deaths, and improve awareness and safety. Why can't CASA take a greater safety approach to aviation to weed out the individuals that make the industry unsafe. I'm not saying the people that are struggling and trying to make a living (normally they are the ones following every rule, and not cutting safety costs), but the operators, pilots or maintainers that are skipping on every safety to quickly get another charter done or a job out.

Cheers, KP

[QSK?]

Another saying that may be relevant to this thread:

"One VALIDATES what one TOLERATES"

(Thanks Dad)

So I guess the lesson here is that if one tolerates unsafe practice, then one eventually gets to the point where they validate that unsafe practice is OK.

[SpyderPig]

I may be speaking out of place here having not worked in GA yet, but having worked in construction and in my current role we have company OH&S managers. They are ground level workers who just have an extra role in reporting any OH&S issues. If I have a problem with something, I tell them, they advise me on wether to continue with it or not and then take it to managment to have the problem resolved. They then keep me updated on any progress or results. I've been on a job site where it was tools down for 2 days untill a water/electical issue was resolved.

I dont know how/if this could work in GA. Could someone who is not a managment pilot(I know in GA there is usually only the CP) be an OH&S rep for the pilots? Who would be willing to take the role, knowing that it will prob put you in the s#% with the boss? But at the end of the day you could save a work mates life!

I guess this also brings about the chance of that person using it and being willing to bend the rules in order to look good or get ahead. The cycle continues.......

In a perfect world eh?

[Mach E Avelli]

KP you are spot on. Problem is CASA people are reluctant to go out in the summer heat up north or the winter ice down south to do what you suggest. Also, as you say, by giving notice of their rare field visits they give everyone time to tidy up the immediate mess.
But CASA inspectors need to dig deeper than mere external visual inspections of hangars, aircraft and operations. Digging deep is something they appear ill-equipped to do, instead focussing on the state of manuals and paperwork which they know will be an easy target in your typical smaller organisation.

[beaver_rotate]

Safety culture comes from the top down. And in this case, the BA Chief Pilot in CNS (an ex CASA FOI) couldn't even spell culture I am sorry. A horrible disgrace of a Chief Pilot (and I have witnessed first hand incident after incident). Not as a employer... but as a Student.

[baron_beeza]

We are hearing a lot about old aircraft, on this thread and on a number of similar currently open.

I have worked on aircraft, military, GA and airline for many years... some new and some old.
I have worked on brand new military aircraft,and also a fleet that had been retired from civil use before going on to a new lease of life. One had the highest landings of it's type in the world.

Similarly I have done the same with airliners. the oldest of it's type then replaced with brand spankers.

We are talking GA, - is that different..?
Ok
I worked on these when they were brand new 30 years ago, - I am still working on them..some the exact same machines.

I honestly cannot see too many differences, the machines I work on all conform to their Type Certificates etc, some are even better than they were new. I know my machine must be close. Years of mods and a couple of modern improvements.
I concede that cosmetically this is not always the case.
As regards the ageing aircraft programme, yes.. the inspection schedules have been modified as we know that the originals were never intended to cater for the life span these machines are now achieving.
The big thing is that a lot of thought has been put into it and known problem areas have been identified.

Now the big thing is accidents, or rather crashes.

I have seen many, many new machines destroyed.. and it was not due to the age of the structure of the machine.

I have lost many friends and personally knew some of the aircraft that have crashed over the years.

I have worked in many hangars and spoken to guys that worked on aircraft that were lost, before my time. Almost without exception the story was he same.
The engineers don't blame the machine for the loss..

One exception, in my experience.... one machine, where the wings departed in flight, even that had a history.. and a story.
That was a 1940's machine and the attach bolt was a known problem... I think that was a major engineering slip-up, perhaps coupled to an overstress situation. I am not aware of contents of the full report.

But I look in my logbook and see the aircraft and guys no longer with us. There must be close to 20 names of instructors or check pilots now departed;
Wire strikes, tree strikes, overweight takeoff, lost, lost and since discovered, weather related, turbulence related, CFIT, fuel exhaustion, fault finding over FTFM, flying up dead end valleys, low level manoeuvres (beat up) and I guess inexplicable stupidity.

I was about the scene through the '70's, saw many new machines arrive, assembled and put into service. GA was humming.. but there were crashes, and many of them.




I am sure that when my time comes and I ask these guys about it, how many do you think will be blaming the aircraft ?

I am thinking that most will accept that they had one close call too many.. They were good men, and honest. I am sure they will front up with the truth.

F1 drivers know the risks and stats.. they still drive.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Hey Baron

That is an EXCELLENT post

The #1 way for a pilot to kill himself and his pax is STILL to fly a perfectly serviceable aircraft into the ground - Lockhart River, Benalla, Mt Hotham, Bathurst, Lake Liddell to name a few.

Somewhere along the way a pilot has made an error of judgement or an error of perception, and it wasn't the aircraft's age at fault.

Human error continues to cause 70-80% of accidents in aviation

Of interest in the Airtex ruling was the admission by several pilots that although they felt pressure to not make entries on the MR, they make the entries without the feared repercussions.

On many occasions, Pilots have had to demonstrate great skill to get themselves out of a scrape - but often that scrape is of their own making.

If you feel your company is pressuring you to do the wrong thing, get your pilot group together over a beer and look each other in the eye and promise each other to stand your ground. The AFAP would do well to encourage this but it is a forlorn hope

Go out and buy Tony Kern's book Flight Discipline, read it, and then ask yourself if you're a true professional. If not... step up to the mark.

[Kowolski]

Trouble is safety culture often doesn't come from the top. It's simply not there or tranished by financial desire. In that situation all we can do is "try" and upward manage it. The challenge is it's often the new guys at the coal face wearing the brunt of the consequences and they aren't skilled in upward management.

In an absence of a safety culture there are three choices... change it, leave, or wear the consequences. To that effect we are sometimes part of the problem in that we can't change it yet we stay.

It's not an easy thing. I've left three companies because I just wasn't prepared to wear the consequences. You miss out on hours and income. It's a challanging industry, particularly GA.

I think the answer is "we" need to change. We need to stop working for organisations lacking a safety culture. Easier said than done but if we did this it would force change on them or they'd be out of business.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Funny you mention F1 beeza, they have an approach to safety that we could only dream of.

What makes this so sad is that F1 is only a sport and the only ones at risk are those people whom choose to be involved, not some fare paying passenger who think they are safe.

Great discussion, I hope it keeps going.....

[remoak]

As far as I can see, particularly on the Kiwi side of the pond, "safety culture" and "GA" are mutually-exclusive terms that cannot be used in the same sentence.

Don't know much about CASA, but over here the CAA deserve much of the blame for steadfastly refusing to hold operators to account. They just assume that operators are playing by the rules unless there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. We all know how well that approach works...

[victor two]

Dont blame management!

safety culture in any organisation is complex and influenced by a wide range of factors. Poor culture is not just "management" willfully demanding that young pilots fly overweight aircraft or exceed duty hours. Culture is also incedibly hard to change and although the overall resposnsibilty will rest with company management to identify and fix the adverse or serious issues, sometimes issues are deliberately disguised or not reported by these same pilots who complain about the poor safety in GA.
I used to worked for a company in the NT that had a bunch of pilots who whacked on constantly about the poor safety culture in GA and these were the very same guys who would turn up to work hungover, ignore basic company SOPs because they didnt agree with them, go formation flying on scenics, carry 13 pax (kids) into communities in 6 seat planes and go off low flying at every opportunity. That was seen by them as some sort of "rite of honour" as a GA bush pilot when it suited them but they were first to whinge about things if they ended up doing something borderline unsafe when it didn't suit them. That was somehow different and was always managements fault!

When every GA pilot starts acting in a totally professional manner when they are all alone out in the bush and noone is watching them is when you will see a signifcant change in GA safety.

Safety culture has to involve everyones best intentions or it's a pointless discussion. Managers cant always fix stupidity!

[puff]

victor two - I see what your saying but again how many of the 'better GA' outfits have pilots that act in this manner? I feel the answer is not many, because they know that sort of behaviour would not be tolerated and they would never risk losing a job in a quality safe company paying above award.

They will only act in the ways you describe if they get away with it, and they have no fear of anything happening if they were caught doing it.

I totally agree that some pilots do act in the way you describe, and pilots have a huge part to take in improving safety culture, but it has to be lead from management, they have the MOST to lose in the event of an accident financially, they have a duty to ensure their pilots are operating safely, it's their operating certificate, money and reputation are on the line daily.

Where are Transair/Aerotropics and Airtex now ? Too bad the blood of 18 people also paid the price along with those 3 operators lack of commitment to safety.

[Up-into-the-air]

Safety Culture and GA

Safety Culture and GA - The Owner

It is great to see a discussion like this. It should go on more often.

In the development of a safety culture discussion - the aircraft has been blamed, the LAME, the operator, insurance broker, banker, lease provider, CASA, ASA, airport operator, the Chief Pilot, operation of AOC, under/ over [less likely] charging for work, the pilot, etc.

The safety culture in most cases starts by a co-operative of all involved.

If one part of the circle is not present, or broken, as has been recently said "S!!t happens".

The pilot at the end of the day, if an aircraft is OK to go, has the say in the operational matters - load, weather, navigation, route, fuel load, pilot condition, final aircraft condition, length of runway, instructions from operator, instructions from controller and the rest [including what the pilot is up to - eg. DAMP]!!

So the pilot before, during and after the flight has a whole range of things that will affect the safety culture and can drive [at very least - influence] where all this goes in the short and long term. The appropriate use of the Maintenance release is a good start.

Overloading, non-recording of hours, air-frame overloads in flight or operating with a known defect are issues that is very hard for an owner [a very large percentage of aircraft operated in GA are not owned by the operator, but leased or cross-hired in by operators] to detect. The owners rely very much on the operator [and in the end the pilot] to do their job correctly.

Overload Example

We recently have come to hand with information about a series of overloads in an aircraft [in which we have an interest] being overloaded by 2 - 300 kg on a series of missions. This overload was by up to 40% extra to the total ex-fuel load. There have been a series of turbo malfunctions in the aircraft, prior to being "told" of the over-loading's. This has serious issues for the owner in terms of maintenance, over-boosting/ over-use of turbo's etc.

The operator no longer has the aircraft.

Ultimately, the owner has to spend money on things that "go bang", shorten life of components, result in early engine tear-downs etc.

This means resources [money] is diverted from new aircraft, better avionics, updates of internals etc.

The owner/LAME cannot work out why the extra costs occur and "blames" the component supplier/ manufacturer. ATSB becomes involved with the "smoking hole" and another family wonders why.

A good safety culture and fair competition goes a long way to ensuring the mission is achieved and safely. We can do this, but if any individual breaks a link in the chain, we are all on a down hill run.

We must co-operate to achieve these goals and we will have a viable dynamic industry.

[WhoWasPhone]

This is a great thread topic and should be discussed more often!

Considering i'm almost up to my Comm training; it is a particularly worrying subject especially since "Up North" is probably where i'll get my first/second job.

A previous post entails notifying CASA and the NTSB under your own name.. and then subsequently being informed that.. "If we investigate this you must realise you may probably not ever work in aviation again"

Is there any way you can anonymously tip off CASA/NTSB to investigate gross safety protocol violations?

But then there is the problem of the enevitable witch hunt that ensues within the company.

If found out, your reputation is tarnished and you effectively become a martyr for the sake of Safety standards.

[Jack Ranga]

but having worked in construction and in my current role we have company OH&S managers.

Just as the medical profession has studied and used a lot of CRM techniques so could the GA aviation fraternity learn a lot from the construction industry.

Having just implemented an OH&S system into a building business (at a fair cost ) if the same requirements were to apply to GA the industry would be out of business tonight. Why is it good enough for the construction industry to be made to protect it's employees but not aviation?

Head in the sand stuff, all too hard isn't it!

[Checkboard]

Is there any way you can anonymously tip off CASA/NTSB to investigate gross safety protocol violations?

REPCON - Aviation Confidential Reporting Scheme
"REPCON is a voluntary confidential reporting scheme. REPCON allows any person who has an aviation safety concern to report it to the ATSB confidentially. Protection of the reporter's identity and any individual referred to in the report is a primary element of the scheme.

Any matter may be reported if it endangers, or could endanger the safety of an aircraft. These matters are reportable safety concerns.

Examples include:

• unsafe scheduling or rostering of crew; or
• crew or aircraft operator bypassing safety procedures because of commercial pressures; or
• non compliance with rules or procedures."

But then there is the problem of the enevitable witch hunt that ensues within the company.

If the CAA are investigating, that will start with an Audit - and they will pay particular attention to the areas reported. The company may never realise that someone "dropped a dime" on them - and even if they do they will be too busy with the investigation.

If found out, your reputation is tarnished and you effectively become a martyr for the sake of Safety standards.

Rubbish - You overestimate the influence of a small, recognised dodgy, operator in the market. There simply isn't any "network of bosses" getting together to swap "black files" on new pilots. The only guys who might listen to a whinge are the same type of small, dodgy operator - the good guys will probably applaud their downfall (and unfair competition) rather than care about the cause of it.