Ansett and the Fokker Friendship
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Would have been nice to be a newly cleared to line F-27 Captain with a rookie FO and get a call from crewing to say your off to Devonport tonight.
Would have been lovely arriving during the passage of the cold front on a winters night, blowing a gale, pouring with rain, low cloud and NBD or VAR circling approach onto a little narrow gravel strip with temporary lighting.
The old F-27 must have been a well thought out design by the Dutch, pretty versatile aircraft when you consider that it operated all over Australia from the tropic heat in Darwin to the cooler climates of southern Australia.
Who was the best operater of the F-27? Ansett, TAA, East-West, MMA, Air Queensland?
Would have been lovely arriving during the passage of the cold front on a winters night, blowing a gale, pouring with rain, low cloud and NBD or VAR circling approach onto a little narrow gravel strip with temporary lighting.
The old F-27 must have been a well thought out design by the Dutch, pretty versatile aircraft when you consider that it operated all over Australia from the tropic heat in Darwin to the cooler climates of southern Australia.
Who was the best operater of the F-27? Ansett, TAA, East-West, MMA, Air Queensland?
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Can't comment on any airline but Ansett, but perhaps two points are worth making in the way AN operated the F27:
- during one Fleet Captain's relatively long reign, (KP, later in life to lose a lot of credibility and many if not most friends, but let's not go there), there were absolutely none, not one, change to SOPs, and
- many of the things AN's SOPs made F27 crews do, which appeared at first glance to many newcomers to the airline to be superfluous and overly complicated, made the transition onto the DC9 (and to a lesser extent, the B727), almost seamless. Someone, (I suspect Henry Theunnisen had a lot to do with it), had really done his homework well and came up with a set of SOPs that were damn near perfect if you looked upon the Friendship as Ansett did - as a training tool for someone who would one day go onto jets. I have to say that I found the DC9 conversion a breeze thanks in large part to the fact that I'd been doing 90% of what I had to do to fly the -9 on the F27.
Stationair8, what you missed saying about those Wynyard or Devonport trips for very junior captains and very new FOs was that as reserve block holders, each would often be doing the trip, just two sectors, as his one trip for the month, each approaching 30 (or was it 35?) days since he'd last flown - and all too often, the captain couldn't (or chose not to!! - bastards!) give away takeoffs and landings. For years, I didn't know there was another way out of Melbourne than by the 150 radial of the ML VOR.
Does anyone else remember the very junior captain who always made a PA telling the pax the bad landing was the FOs?
- during one Fleet Captain's relatively long reign, (KP, later in life to lose a lot of credibility and many if not most friends, but let's not go there), there were absolutely none, not one, change to SOPs, and
- many of the things AN's SOPs made F27 crews do, which appeared at first glance to many newcomers to the airline to be superfluous and overly complicated, made the transition onto the DC9 (and to a lesser extent, the B727), almost seamless. Someone, (I suspect Henry Theunnisen had a lot to do with it), had really done his homework well and came up with a set of SOPs that were damn near perfect if you looked upon the Friendship as Ansett did - as a training tool for someone who would one day go onto jets. I have to say that I found the DC9 conversion a breeze thanks in large part to the fact that I'd been doing 90% of what I had to do to fly the -9 on the F27.
Stationair8, what you missed saying about those Wynyard or Devonport trips for very junior captains and very new FOs was that as reserve block holders, each would often be doing the trip, just two sectors, as his one trip for the month, each approaching 30 (or was it 35?) days since he'd last flown - and all too often, the captain couldn't (or chose not to!! - bastards!) give away takeoffs and landings. For years, I didn't know there was another way out of Melbourne than by the 150 radial of the ML VOR.
Does anyone else remember the very junior captain who always made a PA telling the pax the bad landing was the FOs?
7 X 7:
The SOP's you refer to were established well before HT's reign - which is not for one second to detract from Henry's contribution.
The SOP's you refer to were established well before HT's reign - which is not for one second to detract from Henry's contribution.
Skylane.
All the old timers remember the incident you refer to at WNY. VH-TFM with Capt M... D and F/O B.... W.
The FDR reported an altitude as low as 118 feet, the F/O said his altimeter showed around 100 feet above the water at one stage and he did not sight the coastline. (A long final at 100 feet to R/W 26 would have been an impressive approach)
All the old timers remember the incident you refer to at WNY. VH-TFM with Capt M... D and F/O B.... W.
The FDR reported an altitude as low as 118 feet, the F/O said his altimeter showed around 100 feet above the water at one stage and he did not sight the coastline. (A long final at 100 feet to R/W 26 would have been an impressive approach)
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I suspect Henry Theunnisen had a lot to do with it
Does anyone know if he is still around?
NO sinister reason for asking, just I spent a lot of great times with Henry, at Ansett, but also at Southern Cross and in Vietnam.
'
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Wynyard...
Captain had spent years in PNG, legally letting down over the tea plantation popping under the fog and making a long oblique final to Mt Hagen each morning in F27s but you couldn't do that sort of thing in Oz.
Can be done but illegal.
Henry... yes nature's gentleman who put you totally at ease when he checked and especially when 'the scrub check' was on.
I suspect some people who were up for scrubbing got through because Henry was checking them. Someone else and they'd probably have been too stressed.
Luckily I liked the smell of cigars in the cockpit. I only got to fly with him a few times and watching him, learned just a little bit more each time.
The SOPs stayed the same in the F27, but with each new flight captain we'd get a new fangled blind flying screen they's spent hours designing.
Some were engineering monstrosities with venetian blinds to open at the minimum, others were just a chunk of flat plastic yet most times a cushion from the cabin was the favoured impediment to looking out the window. Chucking it on the floor at the minimum was easiest rather than messing around trying to stow some clanking mechano set.
Captain had spent years in PNG, legally letting down over the tea plantation popping under the fog and making a long oblique final to Mt Hagen each morning in F27s but you couldn't do that sort of thing in Oz.
Can be done but illegal.
Henry... yes nature's gentleman who put you totally at ease when he checked and especially when 'the scrub check' was on.
I suspect some people who were up for scrubbing got through because Henry was checking them. Someone else and they'd probably have been too stressed.
Luckily I liked the smell of cigars in the cockpit. I only got to fly with him a few times and watching him, learned just a little bit more each time.
The SOPs stayed the same in the F27, but with each new flight captain we'd get a new fangled blind flying screen they's spent hours designing.
Some were engineering monstrosities with venetian blinds to open at the minimum, others were just a chunk of flat plastic yet most times a cushion from the cabin was the favoured impediment to looking out the window. Chucking it on the floor at the minimum was easiest rather than messing around trying to stow some clanking mechano set.
There may have been a grand plan in Ansett's approach to complex SOPs for a simple aeroplane. At the other end of the scale, Iran Air had a different approach to preparing pilots for jets. The F27 was the training ground. We had to do the engine start and after start drills without reference to any checklist, merely chanting certain items like "brakes set, pressures 1500, fuel trim 50, throttles & HP cocks closed, one pump on, crossfeed open, beacon on, starting 2" (see I can still remember!). There simply wasn't a checklist, the assumption being that systems knowledge and an orderly scan would get it going. The taxi checklist had about 5 items on it - B737 style. There were only two items on line-up (as it should be) and all the in-flight checklists were similarly brief. They came up with these procedures to cater for multiple sectors, short turnarounds and 'heads-up' flying in conditions that ranged from sandstorms to blizzards in very mountainous areas. The MSA was often above the aircraft's single-engine ceiling, so it was a very challenging environment. There was no time for 'window dressing' with lots of SOPs. Briefings were very short - the checkie would only allow you 30 seconds talk-time.
The training was excellent, including deadstick landing on every base check. Most of the cadet pilots who came through the F27 went straight to B737 or 727 after 18 month exposure to this and most made the grade.
At the time their safety record was impeccable and only went down the tubes after the revolution and with Soviet aircraft displacing Western designs.
Ansett was undoubtedly a good operator, but in that environment I reckon the Iranians had just about the ultimate F27 SOP.
The training was excellent, including deadstick landing on every base check. Most of the cadet pilots who came through the F27 went straight to B737 or 727 after 18 month exposure to this and most made the grade.
At the time their safety record was impeccable and only went down the tubes after the revolution and with Soviet aircraft displacing Western designs.
Ansett was undoubtedly a good operator, but in that environment I reckon the Iranians had just about the ultimate F27 SOP.
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Henry... yes nature's gentleman who put you totally at ease when he checked and especially when 'the scrub check' was on.
I suspect some people who were up for scrubbing got through because Henry was checking them. Someone else and they'd probably have been too stressed.
Luckily I liked the smell of cigars in the cockpit. I only got to fly with him a few times and watching him, learned just a little bit more each time.
I suspect some people who were up for scrubbing got through because Henry was checking them. Someone else and they'd probably have been too stressed.
Luckily I liked the smell of cigars in the cockpit. I only got to fly with him a few times and watching him, learned just a little bit more each time.
Still with us though hopefully, not carrying out checks in Heaven yet?
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Re TFM Wynyard
100' on the altimeter in IMC.Given the possible altimeter tolerances, the aircraft could have been very close to the water. No wonder the FO got upset. What eventually happened to the Captains career?
100' on the altimeter in IMC.Given the possible altimeter tolerances, the aircraft could have been very close to the water. No wonder the FO got upset. What eventually happened to the Captains career?
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Is it correct that the Department of the day introduced DME Homing and letdown charts due to the early F27 having only one ADF and one VAR/VOR receivers. This installation required an alternate at aerodromes where only a NDB was available. With the publishing of DME let down charts, alternates at places like Wynyard(NDB/DME) were only necessary for weather.
The earlier Ansett F.27's had one VHF Comm (we used to tell ATC we were "going off the air to call the company" - can't imagine getting away with that now), one VHF Nav Receiver (not ever to be touched, on pain of death, by the FO), one ADF and one 200 MHz (domestic) DME.
Later -200's had two Comms and two ADF's, but I think it was only the -500's that had two NAVs.
Later -200's had two Comms and two ADF's, but I think it was only the -500's that had two NAVs.
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one VHF Nav Receiver (not ever to be touched, on pain of death, by the FO)
How well I recall, as a reserve block holder, flying my only two sector flight for the month with with one of the (let's be kind) trainee astronaut very junior captains and asking him if he'd like me to tune the Wynyard NDB.
His reply was in the tone of a father who'd just caught his five year old lighting matches in the middle of a major high octane fuel spill. "No! Not yet!"
I did a not very slow silent count to ten and before I reached "eleven", received the command (note that: "command"): "Tune the Wynyard NDB."
An FO just has to get his timing right.
It made me wonder what they taught during the command training about the necessity for a captain to assert his authority. I fondly recall one captain on the Friendly, GD, who had an unrequited love affair with the PA. On one flight to Wynyard, a minute or two over one hour from wheels off to wheels on, he did six - six!! - PAs, (and none of them short).
Brian,
East-west airlines of course!! Only aircraft in the fleet between about 1975-85 after the DC3 and before the F28's arrived.Most f/o's ex GA with 3000 hours single pilot IFR then another 3000 hours f/o F27 before command made them very experienced on type which really showed in the operation.Didn't realise it at the time, but the best of eleven airlines I worked for in my career.
East-west airlines of course!! Only aircraft in the fleet between about 1975-85 after the DC3 and before the F28's arrived.Most f/o's ex GA with 3000 hours single pilot IFR then another 3000 hours f/o F27 before command made them very experienced on type which really showed in the operation.Didn't realise it at the time, but the best of eleven airlines I worked for in my career.
Mates Rates – I’m doubtless leading with my chin now but I have to respond! Is this a fairly dumb answer to an equally dumb question? Or are you just stirring?
Your reasons for nominating EWA make it sound just like what it appeared from the outside to be, a GA operation, quite possibly a very slick one, but a GA operation nevertheless. Whatever else you might think of Ansett (or TAA, again observed from the outside), they were true airline operations.
A single type operation with 6000 hour captains, half of this from GA and the other half being totally indoctrinated into a very limited (country) operation? No cross pollination of ideas from other types, a small standards section promoting and perpetuating it’s own ideas and brain-washing the staff constantly about just how very good they are? No, actually I’m not talking about MMA in this case, but any outfit suffering from “the small airline” syndrome.
If they were that good, please explain to me why, when EWA took over TAA’s Northern Tasmanian operation in 1981 (ish), we constantly had the DCA FOI’s riding around in Ansett jumpseats so they could observe/police the cowboy antics of East West?
OK, Stationaire8, may I venture an opinion about your posting too? How would anyone truly and subjectively know who was the best Australian F.27 operator? Unless you were an FOI, I doubt there’s anyone out there who managed to fly for ALL of the operators, which is surely the only way to have an informed opinion? Actually I do have one good friend (now with CASA funnily enough) who managed to fly for MMA, EWA & Ansett plus actually having a start date with TAA – guess which one he was most scathing about, MR?? But most of us mere mortals flew for one operator and got to observe the others. Add to this the “pride in one’s job” factor, whereby you tended to be very proud of our own operator/employer but surely this is not really the basis for an informed unbiased opinion.
In my own case, I’ve been employed by just four airlines (well, I could argue 5) and observed another with many jumpseat rides and I always thought Ansett was very, very good! But also I admit that this is a subjective (I’d like to think perceptive) opinion based on not having all the facts.
Your reasons for nominating EWA make it sound just like what it appeared from the outside to be, a GA operation, quite possibly a very slick one, but a GA operation nevertheless. Whatever else you might think of Ansett (or TAA, again observed from the outside), they were true airline operations.
A single type operation with 6000 hour captains, half of this from GA and the other half being totally indoctrinated into a very limited (country) operation? No cross pollination of ideas from other types, a small standards section promoting and perpetuating it’s own ideas and brain-washing the staff constantly about just how very good they are? No, actually I’m not talking about MMA in this case, but any outfit suffering from “the small airline” syndrome.
If they were that good, please explain to me why, when EWA took over TAA’s Northern Tasmanian operation in 1981 (ish), we constantly had the DCA FOI’s riding around in Ansett jumpseats so they could observe/police the cowboy antics of East West?
OK, Stationaire8, may I venture an opinion about your posting too? How would anyone truly and subjectively know who was the best Australian F.27 operator? Unless you were an FOI, I doubt there’s anyone out there who managed to fly for ALL of the operators, which is surely the only way to have an informed opinion? Actually I do have one good friend (now with CASA funnily enough) who managed to fly for MMA, EWA & Ansett plus actually having a start date with TAA – guess which one he was most scathing about, MR?? But most of us mere mortals flew for one operator and got to observe the others. Add to this the “pride in one’s job” factor, whereby you tended to be very proud of our own operator/employer but surely this is not really the basis for an informed unbiased opinion.
In my own case, I’ve been employed by just four airlines (well, I could argue 5) and observed another with many jumpseat rides and I always thought Ansett was very, very good! But also I admit that this is a subjective (I’d like to think perceptive) opinion based on not having all the facts.
I spent 9 years in GA, flew a wide range of aircraft including multi-crew and single-pilot turbo-props. I had an inflated opinion of my abilities and could leap tall buildings in a single bound. I found the Ansett F27 operation hard work. It was a high standard, very rigid and disciplined flying compared to GA, a bit like joining the Luftwaffe. I found it a humbling experience, didn't enjoy it initially but looking back it was the best training I ever had.
Last edited by By George; 9th Jan 2011 at 07:01.
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The company where I now work once operated a large fleet of Fokker F-27s, and I'm told there were at least two ex Ansett F-27s in their fleet; VH-FNC and VH-FNB which later became PK-MFR and PK-MFP. I recently made a quick visit to our hangar where a large graveyard of their retired F-27s exists looking for these two aircraft. Unfortunately, many of their regos have been scrubbed from their bodies, but some do still have the rego under their wings. Due to time constraints, I didn't get a chance to loook at al the F-27s in the graveyard but will continue for the search of VH-FNC and VH-FNB when I'm next there. Here are a few pics from that graveyard visit.
BTW, our company is one of a few operators around the world which still operates a full motion, level D, F-27 simulator which I've had the pleasure to fly. A very nice aircraft to fly if the sim is any indication of the real thing (which I'm sure it is). The simulator has 4 axis motion, colour visuals and was acquired from Air New Zealand back in the late 80's. It's still used by visiting crews from around the world including Airwork in New Zealand.
BTW, our company is one of a few operators around the world which still operates a full motion, level D, F-27 simulator which I've had the pleasure to fly. A very nice aircraft to fly if the sim is any indication of the real thing (which I'm sure it is). The simulator has 4 axis motion, colour visuals and was acquired from Air New Zealand back in the late 80's. It's still used by visiting crews from around the world including Airwork in New Zealand.