RFDS Western Operations
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Hans
So when will the first of the "new twins" be purchased. Seems to me you guys do a lot of long sectors over there. More knots needed?
On the subject of finishing up 6 hours after your scheduled shift end and very possible overnights, this obviously would have a flow on effect to the next shift. So whats the roster like say- out of Perth?
SN
So when will the first of the "new twins" be purchased. Seems to me you guys do a lot of long sectors over there. More knots needed?
On the subject of finishing up 6 hours after your scheduled shift end and very possible overnights, this obviously would have a flow on effect to the next shift. So whats the roster like say- out of Perth?
SN
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G'Day Wally,
Tell him I said G'Day (He''ll know me as the first "Westops" Pilot to be employed in Derby when Vic section handed over to Western section).
GB is a true gentleman and a good operator.
Soup Nazi,
Not sure on the purchase date, but the old Classics are scheduled to be culled in around 12 to 18 months.
I suppose that means that whatever they decide on as a replacement will need to be ordered pretty soon!
Jandakot guys start and finish pretty much within their shift times, its mainly the regional bases (particularly Port Hedland) that finish well outside their rostered shifts on a regular basis.
Hans
Tell him I said G'Day (He''ll know me as the first "Westops" Pilot to be employed in Derby when Vic section handed over to Western section).
GB is a true gentleman and a good operator.
Soup Nazi,
Not sure on the purchase date, but the old Classics are scheduled to be culled in around 12 to 18 months.
I suppose that means that whatever they decide on as a replacement will need to be ordered pretty soon!
Jandakot guys start and finish pretty much within their shift times, its mainly the regional bases (particularly Port Hedland) that finish well outside their rostered shifts on a regular basis.
Hans
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With all the talk of using Pigs on the retrieval ops I can t help but wonder about a roo strike on the canard. Id hate to be the first to experience that just after V Dec. 
No doubt the 'WildMan' of Derby would handle a flight with only three wings but what about the rest of us mortals????
Be interesting to see what ever they go with anyway.
DD
No doubt the 'WildMan' of Derby would handle a flight with only three wings but what about the rest of us mortals????
Be interesting to see what ever they go with anyway.
DD
DWD,
The Avanti is definitely not a B200/PC-12 replacement. More it compliments them by offering a high speed, high altitude aircraft for flying the long legs from major aerodromes to major aerodromes.
It's take off and landing performance is such that it would be useless on short strips (<1,000m's), therefore while not impossible (roo's are everywhere), the chances of an animal strike are reduced by operating to aerodromes which are likely to have high fences etc. around them.
morno
The Avanti is definitely not a B200/PC-12 replacement. More it compliments them by offering a high speed, high altitude aircraft for flying the long legs from major aerodromes to major aerodromes.
It's take off and landing performance is such that it would be useless on short strips (<1,000m's), therefore while not impossible (roo's are everywhere), the chances of an animal strike are reduced by operating to aerodromes which are likely to have high fences etc. around them.
morno
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With all the talk of using Pigs on the retrieval ops
Yes, I understand there is also a problem with intubated patients but someone, possibly Piaggio, is currently looking at a cargo door. The problem with that is it will need to be up front because of the design and there are a lot of curves to be designed in and around.
However, the speed of the thing is impressive and it has already done some long distance flights to collect patients. I think it is being flown by some US pilots with a RFDS pilot onboard to ensure compliance with SOPs' etc.
Last edited by PLovett; 13th Sep 2010 at 12:15.
The trouble with operating a few diff types means lots of extra bucks by way of type training, ongoing training, maint & mission adaptability. OH&S (re loading etc) together with all the other issues associated with a new type into the country means headaches. Sure the 'pig' might be suitable for some types of ops but any business even the RFDS looks at whether the 'tools' (being the airframes) can be utilized for ALL the tasks required for that business. This is where the B200 can't be beat considering it's ruggedness, safety & mission ability, I don't mention that 'other' airframe as it's not universally accepted as the best/safest option across Oz for Aero Med work. So the 'pig' in my opinion isn't suitable for that as has been mentioned here. Simply put I'd be very surprised if the 'pig' gets selected anytime soon.
I reckon 'IF' the bean counters really want a mission type machine IE long dist transfers etc then a jet is the go, cheaper & easier to fly.
We recently had a Beech go to CNS from ML, nuts! Too far for a turbo prop & took out an airframe for two days not to mention the crew. We need JETS not 'boats'
Wmk2
I reckon 'IF' the bean counters really want a mission type machine IE long dist transfers etc then a jet is the go, cheaper & easier to fly.
We recently had a Beech go to CNS from ML, nuts! Too far for a turbo prop & took out an airframe for two days not to mention the crew. We need JETS not 'boats'
Wmk2
What is the product support like for the Piaggio, who is the agent in this part of the world??
Still would be far better off with a number of Citation V's with the large door in the west for the long legs etc.
I thought the RFDS many years ago had adpoted a two type fleet based on the Pilatus and Kingair B200, that way they got rid of the Noah's ark fleet of Navajos, Mojaves, Cessna C421's, Conquests, Conquest II, Kingair C90, Barons, Dukes etc?
Perhaps RFDS management have done a 180 and will go back the the various sections buying their own aircraft and making their own decisions etc.
Interseting that the B200's are being sold with the medical fit-out?
Still would be far better off with a number of Citation V's with the large door in the west for the long legs etc.
I thought the RFDS many years ago had adpoted a two type fleet based on the Pilatus and Kingair B200, that way they got rid of the Noah's ark fleet of Navajos, Mojaves, Cessna C421's, Conquests, Conquest II, Kingair C90, Barons, Dukes etc?
Perhaps RFDS management have done a 180 and will go back the the various sections buying their own aircraft and making their own decisions etc.
Interseting that the B200's are being sold with the medical fit-out?
"S8" as i alluded to in my above post support for a new airframe type alone would be a huge headache for any operator. No one operates the 'Pig' down under or anywhere near the place as far as I know so having support in this region would take a huge monetary effort by some agent, an agent where only a hand full would be bought, well at first if ever anyway.
As for the RFDS making their own decisions for each section's types that's been the case for some time now & in more recent times due in part because of commercial contracts only twins for the SE Section at 3 bases.
I'd love to ride a 'pig' (careful you sick dudes
) but they would be a waste where the sun shines first.
Time will tell whether a new airframe will be selected for Aero Med Ops here in Oz but it won't be any time soon, am sure of that.
'DwD' that's a good point, fences keep the roos in:-) Just think of the carnage if a flock of gala's (not pilots) hit the canard of a 'Pig' upon ledg, instant cubby house for the kids of the aero-club at the airport
Wmk2
As for the RFDS making their own decisions for each section's types that's been the case for some time now & in more recent times due in part because of commercial contracts only twins for the SE Section at 3 bases.
I'd love to ride a 'pig' (careful you sick dudes
) but they would be a waste where the sun shines first.Time will tell whether a new airframe will be selected for Aero Med Ops here in Oz but it won't be any time soon, am sure of that.
'DwD' that's a good point, fences keep the roos in:-) Just think of the carnage if a flock of gala's (not pilots) hit the canard of a 'Pig' upon ledg, instant cubby house for the kids of the aero-club at the airport
Wmk2
When Pilatus sold the RFDS on the PC-12, they spent a lot of money to make sure they had the technical and spares support in the country when first airframes arrived and went into service. They also spent a lot of time with the RFDS engineering to get on top of any issues that showed in the first year or so of operation. The Pilatus team knew full well any major issues with the aircraft would definitely cost them future sales to the RFDS and other operaters.
So if Pilatus did it, then what's to say Piaggio won't?
Wally, while I respect a lot of what you say, I get the feeling you like looking backwards more than you do forwards. The loss of the Victorian AA contract should act as a reminder to RFDS that they are not immune to competition, and maybe it's time to look to future platforms (that I know you don't disagree with) for the longer range stuff.
Of course Piaggio doesn't provide any support in Australia for the Avanti. No one owns any, so why would they? As it was demonstrated above, no one operated the PC-12 in Australia before RFDS bought any either, but Pilatus came to the party and provided that support. Now there is numerous PC-12's in the country. So what's to say Piaggio wouldn't do the same?
While a jet sounds good, the economics of it come out behind the Avanti.
Let's look at a couple of things.
The Avanti:
Cheers
morno
Wally, while I respect a lot of what you say, I get the feeling you like looking backwards more than you do forwards. The loss of the Victorian AA contract should act as a reminder to RFDS that they are not immune to competition, and maybe it's time to look to future platforms (that I know you don't disagree with) for the longer range stuff.
Of course Piaggio doesn't provide any support in Australia for the Avanti. No one owns any, so why would they? As it was demonstrated above, no one operated the PC-12 in Australia before RFDS bought any either, but Pilatus came to the party and provided that support. Now there is numerous PC-12's in the country. So what's to say Piaggio wouldn't do the same?
While a jet sounds good, the economics of it come out behind the Avanti.
Let's look at a couple of things.
The Avanti:
- Has PT6's (essentially the same as the B200/PC-12)
- Is equipped with Collins Proline 21 (same as what's in the new B200's)
- Has turboprop efficiency, for speeds not that much less than a jet
- Has a larger cabin than most jets which would come close competition wise
- Entirely different engines
- More costly to run, for not much extra gain. Essentially you're cost per Nm is greater.
- Cabin space certainly isn't up there, for a jet which be appropriate
- The additional cost of training your crews to operate a jet
Cheers
morno
'morno' my views are just that, views, opinions & beliefs. I make no bones about some basic facts here. SE Ops is suicide for Eg, but that's just me, my opinion:-) If someone doesn't agree such as yourself I respect that.
The 'Pig' is an entirely diff airframe arrangement with virtually nothing in common with the current design types, IE normal plan form for a fixed wing craft & the 'pig' has no cargo door, that alone would preclude it's use as Aero Med Ops in Oz if for no other reason than OH&S issues unless many issues where addressed. I'm not too sure of the crew req's either for the 'PIG',may need 2 drivers up front meaning more cost. The 'PC' has been used world wide & therefore was easier to implement down under I'd go as far as to say that the 'pig' isn't as widely used. The 'PC' also was implemented purely based on economics, being a SE plane with almost the same mission capabilities as the old Beech but cheaper, the 'PIG' am sure would cost a bomb to buy/operate much like the old Beech does. The only advantage the 'PIG' has is speed but that's only useful in some missions, like I have said here before any business needs to use it's 'tools' in the most efficient way, the 'PIG' doesn't fit in the current 'tool' box for our Ops.
I wouldn't be too surprised if someone made a decision to buy/use a 'PIG' in the future for Med Ops as many whom make these decisions haven't got a clue anyway! Still I shall have a smile on my face the day a 'PIG' enters service here for Med Ops as I won't be driving one..........I hope!
As for jets? Well a lot easier to operate & maintain in certain circumstances.
But each airframe has it's limitations.I used to fly a LR35 on Aero Med Ops all over the planet & by far per mile the old Lear was cheap airfarme compared to a B200 but couldn't do it all hence each airframe has it's limitations. Trust me the insurance Co's couldn't give a stuff if the plane they are hiring to do a retrieval had 1 or 3 engines jets or props & no dunnies, all they care about is the lowest cost!
Wmk2
P.s.........as for me looking backwards? Now look who's calling the kettle black...........you rear pusher 'PIG' lover
The 'Pig' is an entirely diff airframe arrangement with virtually nothing in common with the current design types, IE normal plan form for a fixed wing craft & the 'pig' has no cargo door, that alone would preclude it's use as Aero Med Ops in Oz if for no other reason than OH&S issues unless many issues where addressed. I'm not too sure of the crew req's either for the 'PIG',may need 2 drivers up front meaning more cost. The 'PC' has been used world wide & therefore was easier to implement down under I'd go as far as to say that the 'pig' isn't as widely used. The 'PC' also was implemented purely based on economics, being a SE plane with almost the same mission capabilities as the old Beech but cheaper, the 'PIG' am sure would cost a bomb to buy/operate much like the old Beech does. The only advantage the 'PIG' has is speed but that's only useful in some missions, like I have said here before any business needs to use it's 'tools' in the most efficient way, the 'PIG' doesn't fit in the current 'tool' box for our Ops.
I wouldn't be too surprised if someone made a decision to buy/use a 'PIG' in the future for Med Ops as many whom make these decisions haven't got a clue anyway! Still I shall have a smile on my face the day a 'PIG' enters service here for Med Ops as I won't be driving one..........I hope!
As for jets? Well a lot easier to operate & maintain in certain circumstances.
But each airframe has it's limitations.I used to fly a LR35 on Aero Med Ops all over the planet & by far per mile the old Lear was cheap airfarme compared to a B200 but couldn't do it all hence each airframe has it's limitations. Trust me the insurance Co's couldn't give a stuff if the plane they are hiring to do a retrieval had 1 or 3 engines jets or props & no dunnies, all they care about is the lowest cost!
Wmk2
P.s.........as for me looking backwards? Now look who's calling the kettle black...........you rear pusher 'PIG' lover
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A few operators seem to be using them;
Air Ambulance Worldwide - Air Ambulance Aircraft
although I'm not sure they are for the same type of operations as the RFDS, and the Italians
just possibly influenced by the fact it's a domestic product, as the article goes on to say,
Air Ambulance Worldwide - Air Ambulance Aircraft
although I'm not sure they are for the same type of operations as the RFDS, and the Italians
GDF: Piaggio Aero Industries has delivered two P.180 Avanti II aircraft to the “Guardia di Finanza, Italy’s Border Patrol agency... .... In order to meet customer requirements, the P.180 Avanti II is equipped with an Ambulance Kit, which, through a quick reconfiguration, allows the aircraft to become an efficient air ambulance unit.
The deliveries are in the wake of all the other Italian State Air Services, the Carabinieri, Vigili del Fuoco, Army, Navy, Air Force, Civil Protection and Corpo Forestale all having taken delivery of Avanti’s.
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The performance figures quoted by Piaggio are somewhat blunted by temperature considerations.
The one being trialled by westops manages about 350 TAS @ ISA +15 at around FL 320 - FL 350.
Given that the Kimberley and Pilbara (main operational areas) are regularly well above that (Summer, late Spring and Early Autumn ISA + 35 - 40), then you can knock quite a few more knots off that as well.
Not really a 390- 400 knot aeroplane unless being flown in winter below the
15th parrallel.
Apparently, once FL370 and above is reached there is an improvement in performance due to the drop in temps, however this is a bit of a moot point, cause if its around ISA+35, it will take forever to climb up there!
Given the constraints of the lack of a cargo door (current door only 600mm wide and poor Hot weather performance, I dont think this is the aircraft for this huge State.(particularly the northern half)
In order to significantly reduce sector times, and thus create a flow-on effect of reducing flight and duty times for crews, increasing aircraft and crew availability at the aircrafts home-base by not having the need for crews to overday or overnight at other bases a true 400 knot+ aircraft is needed.
Only a jet can fullfill this role and a small decrease in available working space in the cabin is not an insurmountable isssue.
In fact, since you can shave off around an hour and a quarter off a PD to JT sector, it would be most welcome by all.
As to the cost.............the figures need to be crunched by someone who knows more about accounting than I do, but from an operational perspective I think a Citation V would win out over the Pig in Western ops.
Hans
The one being trialled by westops manages about 350 TAS @ ISA +15 at around FL 320 - FL 350.
Given that the Kimberley and Pilbara (main operational areas) are regularly well above that (Summer, late Spring and Early Autumn ISA + 35 - 40), then you can knock quite a few more knots off that as well.
Not really a 390- 400 knot aeroplane unless being flown in winter below the
15th parrallel.
Apparently, once FL370 and above is reached there is an improvement in performance due to the drop in temps, however this is a bit of a moot point, cause if its around ISA+35, it will take forever to climb up there!
Given the constraints of the lack of a cargo door (current door only 600mm wide and poor Hot weather performance, I dont think this is the aircraft for this huge State.(particularly the northern half)
In order to significantly reduce sector times, and thus create a flow-on effect of reducing flight and duty times for crews, increasing aircraft and crew availability at the aircrafts home-base by not having the need for crews to overday or overnight at other bases a true 400 knot+ aircraft is needed.
Only a jet can fullfill this role and a small decrease in available working space in the cabin is not an insurmountable isssue.
In fact, since you can shave off around an hour and a quarter off a PD to JT sector, it would be most welcome by all.
As to the cost.............the figures need to be crunched by someone who knows more about accounting than I do, but from an operational perspective I think a Citation V would win out over the Pig in Western ops.
Hans
'Hans' Pm me plz as I have 'GB' here now at work & he is stumped as to yr name:-)
And I agree re the hot high performance or lack thereof due high ISA+'s.
Any plane will suffer in ISA+30. So no 'PIGS' I reckon, a real "show pony"
Wally Mk2
And I agree re the hot high performance or lack thereof due high ISA+'s.
Any plane will suffer in ISA+30. So no 'PIGS' I reckon, a real "show pony"
Wally Mk2
I have a question regarding the arrangements that are in place for Westops pilots...
I think the nurses are doing "fly-in fly-out" to the remote bases like Meeka and Hedland, and have been for some time. Are pilots doing the same?
Cheers.
(Oh, and if not, why not? I think someone said that those bases are populated by long-timers anyway...)
CR.
I think the nurses are doing "fly-in fly-out" to the remote bases like Meeka and Hedland, and have been for some time. Are pilots doing the same?
Cheers.
(Oh, and if not, why not? I think someone said that those bases are populated by long-timers anyway...)
CR.
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The 'PIG' is only here to cover while the jet is having it's double engine change (someone bought it without checking when the engines time ex'd!)
PIG doesn't go to well YPPH-YPCC, in fact it doesn't go at all.
So am sure they will come come back to jet and B200's
PIG doesn't go to well YPPH-YPCC, in fact it doesn't go at all.
So am sure they will come come back to jet and B200's