Pilots flying for free
It is against the law for you to work without pay. You cannot volunteer to do it for free. (Employment Law: Work Without Pay, salaried employee, own time)
Work practices to be wary of
Work practices to be wary of
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
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... how legal (or illegal rather) is it for a business to be not paying their pilots?
The remuneration aspect of the employment (or "engagement") could be based on some award, for example. In which case, if the payments to the employee were not in accord with that award then that would be illegal.
The remuneration could be based on some other deal that is unrelated to any award.
And, the remuneration could be ZERO - provided that is the agreed upon figure.
Note that the "terms and conditions" don't need to be in the form of some formalised document. They can simply be a "nudge and a wink".
Under Australian law it is illegal for an employer to pay less than award rates for work performed. It is also illegal not to keep time sheets and other details pertaining to a person's employment. Details can be found at the Fair Work Ombudsman website and if in doubt a 1300 number can get an official ruling on a case by case basis.
That said, there are exceptions for trainees, apprentices and the like. If an employee was required to study a particular aspect of a business in order to progress then I can see how a practical component of the course could be required.
However there's a fine line between working and training under these circumstances and I suspect Fair Work Australia and the Ombudsman would take a dim view of a pilot sitting in the left or right hand seat of any revenue producing flight who was supposedly studying. The grey areas might come in where single pilot operations are allowed and the 'trainee' learns from the right hand seat.
That said, there are exceptions for trainees, apprentices and the like. If an employee was required to study a particular aspect of a business in order to progress then I can see how a practical component of the course could be required.
However there's a fine line between working and training under these circumstances and I suspect Fair Work Australia and the Ombudsman would take a dim view of a pilot sitting in the left or right hand seat of any revenue producing flight who was supposedly studying. The grey areas might come in where single pilot operations are allowed and the 'trainee' learns from the right hand seat.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Any advice would be appreciated.
You know what YPJT and others, its easy to say that sort of thing from way up on a pedestal, but you tell me how i'm supposed to go get a first time job, when every first time employer out there is constantly telling me they are looking for people with 250+ TT and about 10hours 200 series time... and they are getting it.
The only choices are to either pay for that sort of time by busting your ass in some restaurant or pub or some such, or to get the time for free with skydiving operations or similar operations where your not paid but you get a lot of hours for free and then work that same job in a restaurant or pub or some such and have some money left over, saved away for that all important job finding trip.
Not to mention you spend so long these days looking to get that job that if you choose not to take the free flying when you can you'll undoubtedly become rusty and will decrease your chances of passing that first important check ride.
I've so far been from Brisbane, to Kununurra, Broome, Darwin, Cairns, Townsville and everywhere in between looking for work and you know what, the Skydiving places are the only ones so far whom have been kind enough to give me a go, yeah the first one was unpaid, but you know what, I loved it, every minute of it, being out at the dropzone every weekend with a great bunch of people was fascinating, I learnt a lot from the guy who owned and ran the DZ and from the others there, a few of whom were currently pilots that went out to skydive on the weekend or used to be pilots whom had gotten out of the industry. The current one i'm working for is paid for, not a lot, but when you look at the hours I put in vs what they pay me, its not that bad at all.
I wouldn't go working flying a twin or for a charter company for free, but i'd damned well fly a skydiving operation or a private operation in return for some decent hours and good experience.
So all you know-it-alls out there, whom think you can sit there and tell those of us getting out and busting our arses trying to get the hours to get that first job (which is damned hard these days), get off your bloody high horses and you try giving 200hour pilots a go, cause god knows theres so very few out there who will. Otherwise you can shut your pie holes and stop getting all high and mighty.
The only choices are to either pay for that sort of time by busting your ass in some restaurant or pub or some such, or to get the time for free with skydiving operations or similar operations where your not paid but you get a lot of hours for free and then work that same job in a restaurant or pub or some such and have some money left over, saved away for that all important job finding trip.
Not to mention you spend so long these days looking to get that job that if you choose not to take the free flying when you can you'll undoubtedly become rusty and will decrease your chances of passing that first important check ride.
I've so far been from Brisbane, to Kununurra, Broome, Darwin, Cairns, Townsville and everywhere in between looking for work and you know what, the Skydiving places are the only ones so far whom have been kind enough to give me a go, yeah the first one was unpaid, but you know what, I loved it, every minute of it, being out at the dropzone every weekend with a great bunch of people was fascinating, I learnt a lot from the guy who owned and ran the DZ and from the others there, a few of whom were currently pilots that went out to skydive on the weekend or used to be pilots whom had gotten out of the industry. The current one i'm working for is paid for, not a lot, but when you look at the hours I put in vs what they pay me, its not that bad at all.
I wouldn't go working flying a twin or for a charter company for free, but i'd damned well fly a skydiving operation or a private operation in return for some decent hours and good experience.
So all you know-it-alls out there, whom think you can sit there and tell those of us getting out and busting our arses trying to get the hours to get that first job (which is damned hard these days), get off your bloody high horses and you try giving 200hour pilots a go, cause god knows theres so very few out there who will. Otherwise you can shut your pie holes and stop getting all high and mighty.
Ixixly-I don't know how to break this to you gently- HARDEN UP!. When I finished my flying training it was just before the 'recession we had to have' with interest rates approaching 25% on personal loans, and not long before a large amount of experienced pilots suddenly came back on the market. Of the guys who started with me, one lost hope and changed careers, the other 5 plus myself never worked for free, and all fly jets now. It took a long time, and a lot of other jobs to keep the food on the table/rent paid (first full time salaried job was just under 3 years after CPL). But persistance paid off. I met one guy in the early 90's in Wyndham, when I had 'moved up'. He was on his third year in Wyndham and still waiting for a start!!! Two months later I met him again and guess what, he got a start. An extreme case maybe, but in the early 90's the average 210 driver up north had 2500 TT- there was NO movement. It took me 16 yrs + to make the RHS of a jet, and I flew with Captains who had started their PPL when I was already a turboprop Capt. That is the luck of the draw with this career. I, nor my peers from my flying school, NEVER worked for free. 
Last edited by clear to land; 11th Sep 2010 at 15:12.
I can't believe someone with apparently less than 250 hours is bitching because he can't find employment. Back in my day.........
One thing that guys used to do back in my day was weekend joyrides. This requires the other thing people used to do back in my day and that was frequent hire and fly. This gets you known to the people you hire and fly from and once they can see you are safe you can probably do a deal to hang a shingle out operating under their AOC.
Yes sometimes you may sit out there all day and get no more than 30 minutes in the log book, but that's more than you'll get sitting at home pounding the keyboard.
One thing that guys used to do back in my day was weekend joyrides. This requires the other thing people used to do back in my day and that was frequent hire and fly. This gets you known to the people you hire and fly from and once they can see you are safe you can probably do a deal to hang a shingle out operating under their AOC.
Yes sometimes you may sit out there all day and get no more than 30 minutes in the log book, but that's more than you'll get sitting at home pounding the keyboard.
Ixixly,
Your attitude needs a bit of re-adjusting. Yeah you may have driven all over the top end looking for work however that will not secure you employment. The trick is to pick a town, wait your turn and try your luck.
This year in Kununurra Pilots started arriving in December and many did not get a start until the end of June and going well into July. Historically this is pretty fast progression.
Rewind to 2005 and it was normal to wait at least a season in town for a start some guys waiting far more. Progression has been pretty fast these last couple of years and so peoples expectations have changed.
Just because you spend a couple of years getting a CPL does not mean you are entitled to a job.
There are 4 stages being a Pilot.
1 - Looking for your first job
2 - 1000 hour Pilot looking for a Piston twin job
3 - 1500-2000 hour Pilot looking for a turbo prop job
4 - Turboprop Captain/High Hour FO looking for a Jet Job.
Each of these stages can take over a year to progress once you have the required time. I know plenty of guys that got their 500 multi in 2008 and have not had any luck cracking a turboprop job yet. These guys are now getting close to 2000 multi command.
I suggest an attitude re-adjustment is in order.
For the record I never worked for free and was paid full time from my first flying job.
GG
Your attitude needs a bit of re-adjusting. Yeah you may have driven all over the top end looking for work however that will not secure you employment. The trick is to pick a town, wait your turn and try your luck.
This year in Kununurra Pilots started arriving in December and many did not get a start until the end of June and going well into July. Historically this is pretty fast progression.
Rewind to 2005 and it was normal to wait at least a season in town for a start some guys waiting far more. Progression has been pretty fast these last couple of years and so peoples expectations have changed.
Just because you spend a couple of years getting a CPL does not mean you are entitled to a job.
There are 4 stages being a Pilot.
1 - Looking for your first job
2 - 1000 hour Pilot looking for a Piston twin job
3 - 1500-2000 hour Pilot looking for a turbo prop job
4 - Turboprop Captain/High Hour FO looking for a Jet Job.
Each of these stages can take over a year to progress once you have the required time. I know plenty of guys that got their 500 multi in 2008 and have not had any luck cracking a turboprop job yet. These guys are now getting close to 2000 multi command.
I suggest an attitude re-adjustment is in order.
For the record I never worked for free and was paid full time from my first flying job.
GG
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Ixixly, hate to break it to you but you must be doing something wrong.
Everyone I know that went up north the last couple of years has gotten work, and most had less than 250 total and with no 200 series time. Many didnt go north and still got jobs. Tried all the operators around the lake and the flinders? I know of 3 that were gagging for pilots the last few months. The fire spotting in sth WA, Fish spotting in nth WA, Victorian coastal scenic flights, glider towing in VIC/NSW.
You hear it time and time again but it really is just who you know the majority of the time. If youve been to all these places you say you have, then why arent the people you have met giving you the inside info? Have you made enough friends and spent enough time giving people the ****s at the airport, washing planes or pulling beers for the chief pilot at the pub? I met a bloke in pub in the middle of nowhere when i had 190 hrs + inst rating, turns out he knew someone with a twin that needed a pilot.
Total resumes sent and chief pilots talked to - probably over 100, total jobs from said resumes - 0. All jobs have come from word of mouth, friend of a freind etc.
With all the money you have spent on travelling around you probably could have paid to get yourself to 250tt in a C206/210. And not one hired from a flying school or that someone on pprune told you to hire, anything over $300 is bull****. Go find farmer Joe that has one in the barn and say youll give him $90 per hour dry, then find 3 mates and get them to pay for a trip to Cairns to go to the Hookers.
It doesnt affect me as now, as fortunately for me I have quite a good job, but please dont work for free, you are degrading the conditions for most who do have jobs.
Everyone I know that went up north the last couple of years has gotten work, and most had less than 250 total and with no 200 series time. Many didnt go north and still got jobs. Tried all the operators around the lake and the flinders? I know of 3 that were gagging for pilots the last few months. The fire spotting in sth WA, Fish spotting in nth WA, Victorian coastal scenic flights, glider towing in VIC/NSW.
You hear it time and time again but it really is just who you know the majority of the time. If youve been to all these places you say you have, then why arent the people you have met giving you the inside info? Have you made enough friends and spent enough time giving people the ****s at the airport, washing planes or pulling beers for the chief pilot at the pub? I met a bloke in pub in the middle of nowhere when i had 190 hrs + inst rating, turns out he knew someone with a twin that needed a pilot.
Total resumes sent and chief pilots talked to - probably over 100, total jobs from said resumes - 0. All jobs have come from word of mouth, friend of a freind etc.
With all the money you have spent on travelling around you probably could have paid to get yourself to 250tt in a C206/210. And not one hired from a flying school or that someone on pprune told you to hire, anything over $300 is bull****. Go find farmer Joe that has one in the barn and say youll give him $90 per hour dry, then find 3 mates and get them to pay for a trip to Cairns to go to the Hookers.
It doesnt affect me as now, as fortunately for me I have quite a good job, but please dont work for free, you are degrading the conditions for most who do have jobs.
With all the money you have spent on travelling around you probably could have paid to get yourself to 250tt in a C206/210. And not one hired from a flying school or that someone on PPRuNe told you to hire, anything over $300 is bull****. Go find farmer Joe that has one in the barn and say youll give him $90 per hour dry, then find 3 mates and get them to pay for a trip to Cairns to go to the Hookers.
$90/hr dry for a C206/210?
Ha!
Ha!
Hahahahahahahahahaha!
In your dreams!
I've met some dumb farmers in my time - but not that dumb.
Dr
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Well going by the fact that they have probably paid for the aircraft, dont have to pay hangarage, they are probably the only person insured on it (this could obviously make things difficult), the aicraft is probably maintained to day VFR private/airwork, what exactly would the highly expensive operating costs that justify the many people that charge upwards of $300 p/h be?. Combine that with the fact that the whole reason the farmer owns it is because its a tax write off..
For as long as there are schools out there using deceptive marketing about "pilot shortages" and making it look like you'll go from CPL flight test to A380 in about 5 minutes, there will be people with unrealistic expectations.
And people who AGREE to work for less than the award and then grumble about it!
I've walked away from potential employers who have said they wouldn't put me on the correct wage both in aviation and outside and it's never hurt my career. I've also walked away from any who said..."er, can't pay you this week but I need you to do six days next week" and then drive off in a $50G car.
And people who AGREE to work for less than the award and then grumble about it!
I've walked away from potential employers who have said they wouldn't put me on the correct wage both in aviation and outside and it's never hurt my career. I've also walked away from any who said..."er, can't pay you this week but I need you to do six days next week" and then drive off in a $50G car.
Combine that with the fact that the whole reason the farmer owns it is because its a tax write off..
Ha!
Ha!
Hahahahahaha!
Stop it Povo, you're killing me!
Dr
PS: Oh dear! I am gonna pee myself (again!).
PPS: Where's Dick? Hey Dick, do you need a tax deduction? I'll give you $200/hr for the CJ!
Never said I had less than 250hr TT, I have a bit closer to 350hr TT, and I wouldn't have anywhere near that if I had the same attitude that a lot of you seem to have. I'm well ahead of my peers who finished at the flying school and many others I met in my brief time doing an "Aviation Degree", lots of them still sitting back home with barely any more hours than they had when they finished.
I've had the odd job here and there, some skydiving stuff, some private stuff as well and only the current skydiving gig and one of the private flights i've done have been paid.
Never said I deserved a job straight off the bat, if I had that mentality I would still be sitting back home, the fact is i've gotten out there over the last 20months and realised its a hard bloody slog, but it'd be damned near impossible if I never took what I could get. I've done the best I can networking, met a lot of good people and picked up a lot of tips here and there and gotten damned close only to miss out by an hour or two in some cases cause someone got the news just that bit faster than me. Yeah, last year has been crud unfortunately, I know people who finished a bare few months before me and got jobs almost straight away, then a few months later its all kinda gone to crud. Even the chief pilots i've met along the way have said the same thing sometimes "If only you'd finished your CPL 3months earlier and gotten here then we would have probably taken you on!!", such is the way of life.
So once again, don't assume you know me, I realise there have been harder points in Aviations History, by no means do I feel I deserve a job and I realise its still going to be a hard slog to get to that first one.
I've had the odd job here and there, some skydiving stuff, some private stuff as well and only the current skydiving gig and one of the private flights i've done have been paid.
Never said I deserved a job straight off the bat, if I had that mentality I would still be sitting back home, the fact is i've gotten out there over the last 20months and realised its a hard bloody slog, but it'd be damned near impossible if I never took what I could get. I've done the best I can networking, met a lot of good people and picked up a lot of tips here and there and gotten damned close only to miss out by an hour or two in some cases cause someone got the news just that bit faster than me. Yeah, last year has been crud unfortunately, I know people who finished a bare few months before me and got jobs almost straight away, then a few months later its all kinda gone to crud. Even the chief pilots i've met along the way have said the same thing sometimes "If only you'd finished your CPL 3months earlier and gotten here then we would have probably taken you on!!", such is the way of life.
So once again, don't assume you know me, I realise there have been harder points in Aviations History, by no means do I feel I deserve a job and I realise its still going to be a hard slog to get to that first one.
Ixixly seriously, you must have bad BO or something 
I have been putting out for as much flying as I can post CPL, and in a year after getting my licence I had a few private gigs flying some people around, and also have now been at a relatively "quiet" DZ or 2 for only 11 months and am about to crack 500 hours, and I get paid extremely well for that flying by all accounts. At least 3 of my mates who got their CPL well after me are all employed fulltime and now have more hours than me. Only reason I have not pursued a full time gig yet is because I wanted to have the funds ready to go for ME/CIR, so I have continued working a desk job full time saving for it while I fly meat bombs on the weekend.
I think you need a break from thinking you are doing it so hard.. Sure, hours are not handed to you, but in my limited experience of the game so far, if you a passionate about making a career for yourself and are willing to stick at it, its really not as hard as you try and make it out to be.
I have been putting out for as much flying as I can post CPL, and in a year after getting my licence I had a few private gigs flying some people around, and also have now been at a relatively "quiet" DZ or 2 for only 11 months and am about to crack 500 hours, and I get paid extremely well for that flying by all accounts. At least 3 of my mates who got their CPL well after me are all employed fulltime and now have more hours than me. Only reason I have not pursued a full time gig yet is because I wanted to have the funds ready to go for ME/CIR, so I have continued working a desk job full time saving for it while I fly meat bombs on the weekend.
I think you need a break from thinking you are doing it so hard.. Sure, hours are not handed to you, but in my limited experience of the game so far, if you a passionate about making a career for yourself and are willing to stick at it, its really not as hard as you try and make it out to be.
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That is the luck of the draw with this career. I, nor my peers from my flying school, NEVER worked for free. 