Nine Dead in Fox Glacier Crash, New Zealand
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The report will likely tell you absolutely nothing about what initiated the accident, unless someone had a camcorder running or something.
If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it's a duck.
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Have to agree with Fencehopper here.
Although all my jumping experience is from the UK it was no different there. We had a real mixture at our DZ - all ages and all backgrounds from middle aged company directors, military freefall, Tandem, champion sky surfers to free flyers (guilty), the whole shebang. One thing was a constant though - no one ever f*cked about from the time they got in the a/c to the time they got out of the door......ever!
Obviously I can't vouch for the Fox operation but judging by some of the posts it seems unlikely that 'f*cking about' in the back is to blame - but.
Although all my jumping experience is from the UK it was no different there. We had a real mixture at our DZ - all ages and all backgrounds from middle aged company directors, military freefall, Tandem, champion sky surfers to free flyers (guilty), the whole shebang. One thing was a constant though - no one ever f*cked about from the time they got in the a/c to the time they got out of the door......ever!
Obviously I can't vouch for the Fox operation but judging by some of the posts it seems unlikely that 'f*cking about' in the back is to blame - but.
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"The report will likely tell you absolutely nothing about what initiated the accident"
You may be right, but from the photo's that have emerged and been made public, the rear empannage was relatively unscathed. The position of the elevator trim for take off will likely be obvious, if it was where I suspect it was, then the likely sequence of events will become known with some certainty.
What iniated the accident happened long before this occurence. That has been confirmed by the haste that the AD was issued.
You may be right, but from the photo's that have emerged and been made public, the rear empannage was relatively unscathed. The position of the elevator trim for take off will likely be obvious, if it was where I suspect it was, then the likely sequence of events will become known with some certainty.
What iniated the accident happened long before this occurence. That has been confirmed by the haste that the AD was issued.
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There does seem to be enough remaining 'evidence' to find the cause. If it was out of trim then that will show. This accident has a very similar ring to the army porter crash at Jaspers Brush about 15 years ago. can't comment on the 'quick response' bandaid by the powers but really surprised that it has not been followed up in NZ by introducing single point restraints to all jump operations.
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Having done jump pilot work on both sides of the Tasman, I can say that there is a real difference between the two industries.
Yes in Oz, there was a lot more larking around, keys out of the ignition, general disregard of VMC/IMC drops through cloud, pressure often from the jumpmaster and DZ owner and general overall it felt like a amateur industry. I'm sure there are exceptions to this in Oz.
While in NZ working as a drop pilot, I found the complete opposite. Tandem masters took their work seriously and only larked about in the hangar, nowhere near the aircraft or while airborne. IMC conditions were to be avoided religiously, lest the pilot got beat up by the jump master once they got down on the ground. I've seen a load of tandem masters once on the ground go to work on a pilot who took them IMC. They all knew too well the risks of flying IMC without the proper training and equipment. (This was around the Taupo DZs)
Sure there probably will be exceptions as well in NZ, but in my time in the parachute industry, I had yet to see a "cowboy operator" in NZ. Maybe its something to do with the fact that all involved with the majority of drop operations in NZ are PAID positions including pilots.
To be honest, you cannot compare the Australian Parachute Industry to the NZ Parachute industry because I believe there is a huge difference between the two, IMO...
Yes in Oz, there was a lot more larking around, keys out of the ignition, general disregard of VMC/IMC drops through cloud, pressure often from the jumpmaster and DZ owner and general overall it felt like a amateur industry. I'm sure there are exceptions to this in Oz.
While in NZ working as a drop pilot, I found the complete opposite. Tandem masters took their work seriously and only larked about in the hangar, nowhere near the aircraft or while airborne. IMC conditions were to be avoided religiously, lest the pilot got beat up by the jump master once they got down on the ground. I've seen a load of tandem masters once on the ground go to work on a pilot who took them IMC. They all knew too well the risks of flying IMC without the proper training and equipment. (This was around the Taupo DZs)
Sure there probably will be exceptions as well in NZ, but in my time in the parachute industry, I had yet to see a "cowboy operator" in NZ. Maybe its something to do with the fact that all involved with the majority of drop operations in NZ are PAID positions including pilots.
To be honest, you cannot compare the Australian Parachute Industry to the NZ Parachute industry because I believe there is a huge difference between the two, IMO...
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I'm not in the skydiving industry so can't comment directly, however I can say that while flying in NZ, I have twice had skydivers appear directly in front of me, jumping through what was in both cases about 7/8 cloud cover; once had a skydiver land in front of me as I was taxying a long distance from the PDZ; another time, listened in to a group of skydivers who were using a local hangar, as they discussed ways to unsettle the aircraft and scare the pilot. I crap you not.
I'm sure the majority are professional, but there are still plenty of the other kind around.
Reminds me a lot of the jetboating industry... all stretching the boundaries until someone gets hurt, then everyone behaves for six months, then back to normal ops.
I'm sure the majority are professional, but there are still plenty of the other kind around.
Reminds me a lot of the jetboating industry... all stretching the boundaries until someone gets hurt, then everyone behaves for six months, then back to normal ops.
I asked someone I know who is well known in NZ aviation that was present during the turbine conversion of EUF, he sent me photos of EUF after the conversion, one of which clearly show a manual stabilator trim control aft of the throttle quadrant.
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jumping through what was in both cases about 7/8 cloud cover;
once had a skydiver land in front of me as I was taxying a long distance from the PDZ
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I've PJE piloted jump aircraft for around 15 years in OZ (C182, C206, C208, P750).
*There are certainly some weird & wonderful skydivers. None of them I'd be worried about letting on the aircraft.
*All of the CI's & DZSO's monitored for drug or alcohol affected jumpers (not tolerated)
*Not one skydiver I've spoken to understands C of G or weight shift issues.
*I've NEVER seen a skydiver use the provided restraints.
*Out of all the types I've flown the P750 is the biggest pain in the arse, fully loaded I've never had a C of G issue. The C208 is easily the best type by a country mile, a litlle underpowered perhaps but I hear there's a conversion with a bigger dash?
remoak (and others) you really should make an effort to understand cloud jumping manuals and whether the operator has them before criticising.
Skydivers are petrified of aircraft, if they tried to 'scare' me they'd get a 'demonstration' in what an aircraft is capable of next jumprun
*There are certainly some weird & wonderful skydivers. None of them I'd be worried about letting on the aircraft.
*All of the CI's & DZSO's monitored for drug or alcohol affected jumpers (not tolerated)
*Not one skydiver I've spoken to understands C of G or weight shift issues.
*I've NEVER seen a skydiver use the provided restraints.
*Out of all the types I've flown the P750 is the biggest pain in the arse, fully loaded I've never had a C of G issue. The C208 is easily the best type by a country mile, a litlle underpowered perhaps but I hear there's a conversion with a bigger dash?
remoak (and others) you really should make an effort to understand cloud jumping manuals and whether the operator has them before criticising.
Skydivers are petrified of aircraft, if they tried to 'scare' me they'd get a 'demonstration' in what an aircraft is capable of next jumprun
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Not knowing the airspace classification you were flying in but dropping through cloud is permitted in controlled airspace. At 7/8ths I guess they were descending through a Hole? if outside controlled airspace - and at any rate, presuming calls were made by the pilot that dropping was in progress, why would you be flying over/through the 'descent' area?
They may have been aiming for a hole, but they missed it on both occasions (by quite a margin).
remoak (and others) you really should make an effort to understand cloud jumping manuals and whether the operator has them before criticising.
Better that skydivers obey the rules. Most do, of course.
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aldee,
You don't fly it, you wrestle it. After a few years if you're not careful you will be walking in right hand circles (your right leg and arm will be significantly developed, so work out at the gym on your left hand side only
The pilot seat is a joke for a million dollar turbine aircraft. After a 10 hour day in it you will need assistance to vacate the aircraft.
It's a bit plasticy and bits tend to break off it. Having said that, it works hard and gets to height quickly.
The van however, yeah baby, a beautiful plane to fly, especially when you have to sit in it all day. Trim it in the arc you are flying, adjust the torque until it temps out and monitor it
You don't fly it, you wrestle it. After a few years if you're not careful you will be walking in right hand circles (your right leg and arm will be significantly developed, so work out at the gym on your left hand side only
The pilot seat is a joke for a million dollar turbine aircraft. After a 10 hour day in it you will need assistance to vacate the aircraft.
It's a bit plasticy and bits tend to break off it. Having said that, it works hard and gets to height quickly.
The van however, yeah baby, a beautiful plane to fly, especially when you have to sit in it all day. Trim it in the arc you are flying, adjust the torque until it temps out and monitor it
Trim
Just had a good look at the Photo showing the tail of the crashed aircraft. The elevater trim appears to be in the full up position. This could be due to the high impact forces but at least it is there to inspect.
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The van however, yeah baby, a beautiful plane to fly, especially when you have to sit in it all day. Trim it in the arc you are flying, adjust the torque until it temps out and monitor it
And its cheaper to operate.
Cheers....
Mike.
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The van however, yeah baby, a beautiful plane to fly, especially when you have to sit in it all day
Guess it's only the Swiss that understand single-engine turbines...
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Might be OK for meatbombing, but otherwise it's a bit of a pig really. Great if you like trimming every second you are in it, but it's under-powered, and horrible for IFR flying. 750 is worse from what I hear.
Was this ever explained to you?
Flew it Brissy to Batchelor, trimmed it twice 
(had to re-fuel at Isa)
(had to re-fuel at Isa)
BTW you'd have gotten there quicker in a texas turbines machine
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When I learnt to fly, my instructor was kind enough to explain to me that you are not supposed to fly the trim wheel. Was this ever explained to you?
Was this ever explained to you?
In the Van, you use that wheel an awful lot... change anything, you need to re-trim.
Although I suppose some here probably just fly it with the ball trying desperately to escape it's tube...
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Well when I learned to fly, the object of the exercise was to be in balanced flight at all times... that's what the little ball is for. So unless you like holding rudder pressure on the whole time you are flying, you trim the forces out with the trim wheel. Was this ever explained to you?
Still some people enjoy that.