Help a failing memory - NSW Cessna 210 crash and a NSW Ag accident?
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Help a failing memory - NSW Cessna 210 crash and a NSW Ag accident?
Hi all,
Don't want to be too morbid, but may I ask for some help?
1. Back around Christmas 1990 a Cessna 210 (VH-PLD) that was out searching for a crashed 152 (VH-BUO?) went down near Lake Burragorang due to a crankshaft failure. 4 of the 6 on board didn't survive the forced landing in tall trees. The two who made it out were student pilots.
Does anyone know whether these two were able to continue on with their aviation careers? I lost a good mate in the accident (the front right seat - AH) and would also like to get back in touch with his family if anyone has any info.
2. Also back in the mid 90's I met a young kid from a mid western NSW cropdusting family at the Nowra parachute club. He was doing an accelerated free fall course and was an all around brilliant young kid with huge heart. I was devastated to hear he was later killed on takeoff in an ag aircraft - engine failure & heavy weight. Does anyone recall this accident (97-98?) or the young guys name?
Grateful for any PMs.
Thanks very much, R.O.
Don't want to be too morbid, but may I ask for some help?
1. Back around Christmas 1990 a Cessna 210 (VH-PLD) that was out searching for a crashed 152 (VH-BUO?) went down near Lake Burragorang due to a crankshaft failure. 4 of the 6 on board didn't survive the forced landing in tall trees. The two who made it out were student pilots.
Does anyone know whether these two were able to continue on with their aviation careers? I lost a good mate in the accident (the front right seat - AH) and would also like to get back in touch with his family if anyone has any info.
2. Also back in the mid 90's I met a young kid from a mid western NSW cropdusting family at the Nowra parachute club. He was doing an accelerated free fall course and was an all around brilliant young kid with huge heart. I was devastated to hear he was later killed on takeoff in an ag aircraft - engine failure & heavy weight. Does anyone recall this accident (97-98?) or the young guys name?
Grateful for any PMs.
Thanks very much, R.O.
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Official report VH-PLD http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...r199002036.pdf
One of the survivors was a young lass who went on to fly around Australia in a R-22. A TV doco was made of the trip. See here Allana Arnot (1967-), Australian Pioneer Aviatrix
One of the survivors was a young lass who went on to fly around Australia in a R-22. A TV doco was made of the trip. See here Allana Arnot (1967-), Australian Pioneer Aviatrix
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The Best I Can Be is a book well worth reading.
Having met her many years ago, she has an amazing story. The book is inspirational and her new life in Tasmania I think is a testimony to her resolve.
I would like to think I had the same stuff she has....never want to test it.
J
Having met her many years ago, she has an amazing story. The book is inspirational and her new life in Tasmania I think is a testimony to her resolve.
I would like to think I had the same stuff she has....never want to test it.
J
I remember it like it was yesterday.
I knew AH, the right seat pilot, but I was quite good friends with Peter Whitehurst the PIC. What a tragic and sad state of events.
What people may not know, was that this story had more twists than a cheap novel. Now some-one please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that the C-152 they were searching for with a 20 year old grade three instructor and his 18 year old ab-initio female student in fact had their crash witnessed by persons in another aircraft. Apparently both aircraft were taking turns flying at very low level over a smooth lake Burragorang, when the C-152 came to grief. The aircraft quickly sank, and as there appeared to be no survivors, the "old mate" in aircraft No2 simply flew away and didn't tell anyone. Media later reported that the reasons for his action were because he was a QF Cadet and didn't want his career jeapodised by these events!
After the loss of PLD, he was unable to live with himself, and only then did he inform the authorities. It was a short time later that BOU was brought to the surface. Personally I remember thinking it was probably in the dam all along, as it was only a training area flight, and it seemed to have simply vanished.
I'll tell you, fact can be stranger than fiction. Does anyone know what happened to the other pilot? I'd say it would be certain his Qantas days were over before they began.
I knew AH, the right seat pilot, but I was quite good friends with Peter Whitehurst the PIC. What a tragic and sad state of events.
What people may not know, was that this story had more twists than a cheap novel. Now some-one please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that the C-152 they were searching for with a 20 year old grade three instructor and his 18 year old ab-initio female student in fact had their crash witnessed by persons in another aircraft. Apparently both aircraft were taking turns flying at very low level over a smooth lake Burragorang, when the C-152 came to grief. The aircraft quickly sank, and as there appeared to be no survivors, the "old mate" in aircraft No2 simply flew away and didn't tell anyone. Media later reported that the reasons for his action were because he was a QF Cadet and didn't want his career jeapodised by these events!
After the loss of PLD, he was unable to live with himself, and only then did he inform the authorities. It was a short time later that BOU was brought to the surface. Personally I remember thinking it was probably in the dam all along, as it was only a training area flight, and it seemed to have simply vanished.
I'll tell you, fact can be stranger than fiction. Does anyone know what happened to the other pilot? I'd say it would be certain his Qantas days were over before they began.
Now some-one please correct me if I'm wrong. I recall that the C-152 they were searching for with a 20 year old grade three instructor and his 18 year old ab-initio female student in fact had their crash witnessed by persons in another aircraft.
Last edited by bentleg; 6th Aug 2010 at 07:19.
Thanks Bentleg.
Even though it seemed like yesterday, I guess it was nearly 20 years ago! I thought the timeline between the disappearance of BUO and the crash of PLD was greater.
I recall the media making something of the QF cadet link and the pilot of the other aircraft. If I have incorrectly cast aspertions on the other pilot, then I most humbly appolgise.
Even though it seemed like yesterday, I guess it was nearly 20 years ago! I thought the timeline between the disappearance of BUO and the crash of PLD was greater.
I recall the media making something of the QF cadet link and the pilot of the other aircraft. If I have incorrectly cast aspertions on the other pilot, then I most humbly appolgise.
Nunc est bibendum
Krusty, you're not far off the mark. A few things from my perspective. Many of the recollections below will be somewhat distorted by the nearly 20 years since the prang. Some of it is also supposition based upon discussions with various AIRTC members who were close to the detachment, the people involved, and the coronial inquest. Some of these discussions were years after the events. When this all happened I had just turned 20 and had a UPPL.
I was good mates with Rob Holmes who was one of the spotters in the second row of PLD and subsequently died before he could be extracted from the wreckage. Rob had recruited me into the AIRTC (as it was then) as a staff member when we met whilst I was learning to fly with the Scouts and he was instructing with the Air League. I was one of his pall bearers at his funeral which was between Christmas and New Year. I can picture that day very clearly.
I had finished a night shift when I heard that an aircraft had gone missing from Camden the afternoon before. I actually phoned the tower and asked them directly if it was an AIRTC aircraft that was missing as I'd known that there was a flying camp on. They told me it was and so when my night shift finished I drove to Camden to offer assistance arriving about 0900 or so.
Rob approached me to ask me to be a spotter on PLD but when he discovered that I'd just come off night shift he came back a bit later and indicated that they'd found someone else and that I should go home and sleep. I watched them take off and then left Camden. I got home about 90 minutes later to the phone ringing and a colleague from the Scouts asking me 'what the f&*king hell had been going on down there' as another aircraft had just gone in. I asked him what it was and when he told me it was a C210 I hung up on him and the afternoon became a blur of phoning my FLTCDR (who was also Rob's FLTCDR) and trying to find out information.
Indeed the crew of BUO was an 18 year old Cadet Warrant Officer by the name of Angeline (Angelina?) Neal. She was from Canberra. A bloke who I later worked with frequently in the AIRTC/ AAFC was her FLTCDR and had to tell her parents about the missing aircraft. The flying instructor was 19 if I recall and male. The other aircraft was either a QF S/O or QF cadet- I thought he was a S/O. The student pilot on the other flight was my room mate from my cadet JNCO course a couple of years earlier. Both names escape me but I'm pretty sure I'd know them if someone mentioned them.
The sortie was the last day of course on what I remember as being a beautiful summer's afternoon and so perhaps that sense of euphoria contributed to the prang.
I've not ever heard that the other aircraft saw them go in. Indeed I seem to recall it was at least a few months after the accident before the wreckage was located and so I think your part of the story about the instructor of the other aircraft coming forward may not be correct. I'd always understood that they'd 'lost contact' with the other aircraft in the manner described in the BASI report and although they suspected what had happened, weren't sure and so didn't say. However, I suspect that Pete Whitehurst may have also had an inkling/ been briefed on the possibility of what had gone wrong. It's the only reason i can think of that they were so far out of their designated search area (heading toward the dam) when they had the engine failure.
Absolutely there were some issues regarding supervision. The BASI report is actually very light on I subsequently found out some stuff about the way the flying camps were conducted by the OIC that makes my blood boil. Crazy stuff like clutch boxes in LGS (trucks) being trashed due to cadets driving them up and down the runway in the middle of the night (with a staff member in the truck at the same time) and a few other things as well. Certainly, after the fact I found out that aircraft departing 'in company' (which I took to understand as formation) to low fly past the phone box on the island off the spit in the burragorang was not an unusual occurrence. The OIC of the activity was overseas for much of the coronial enquiry (convenient) and thus the coronial enquiry didn't get to examine some aspects of the BUO prang that I felt were particularly pertinent. I've never read a copy of the findings but would like to do so. I certainly have significant disdain for the OIC and to this day believe that his actions/ inactions and the culture that he oversaw contributed directly to the prang of BUO.
Allana featured on one of those shows in the last few years whereby survivors of serious accidents are reunited with their rescuers. The paramedic who winched into the PLD crash site was featured also.
Anyway, that's about it from me on this one. Sorry if some found this boring.
I was good mates with Rob Holmes who was one of the spotters in the second row of PLD and subsequently died before he could be extracted from the wreckage. Rob had recruited me into the AIRTC (as it was then) as a staff member when we met whilst I was learning to fly with the Scouts and he was instructing with the Air League. I was one of his pall bearers at his funeral which was between Christmas and New Year. I can picture that day very clearly.
I had finished a night shift when I heard that an aircraft had gone missing from Camden the afternoon before. I actually phoned the tower and asked them directly if it was an AIRTC aircraft that was missing as I'd known that there was a flying camp on. They told me it was and so when my night shift finished I drove to Camden to offer assistance arriving about 0900 or so.
Rob approached me to ask me to be a spotter on PLD but when he discovered that I'd just come off night shift he came back a bit later and indicated that they'd found someone else and that I should go home and sleep. I watched them take off and then left Camden. I got home about 90 minutes later to the phone ringing and a colleague from the Scouts asking me 'what the f&*king hell had been going on down there' as another aircraft had just gone in. I asked him what it was and when he told me it was a C210 I hung up on him and the afternoon became a blur of phoning my FLTCDR (who was also Rob's FLTCDR) and trying to find out information.
Indeed the crew of BUO was an 18 year old Cadet Warrant Officer by the name of Angeline (Angelina?) Neal. She was from Canberra. A bloke who I later worked with frequently in the AIRTC/ AAFC was her FLTCDR and had to tell her parents about the missing aircraft. The flying instructor was 19 if I recall and male. The other aircraft was either a QF S/O or QF cadet- I thought he was a S/O. The student pilot on the other flight was my room mate from my cadet JNCO course a couple of years earlier. Both names escape me but I'm pretty sure I'd know them if someone mentioned them.
The sortie was the last day of course on what I remember as being a beautiful summer's afternoon and so perhaps that sense of euphoria contributed to the prang.
I've not ever heard that the other aircraft saw them go in. Indeed I seem to recall it was at least a few months after the accident before the wreckage was located and so I think your part of the story about the instructor of the other aircraft coming forward may not be correct. I'd always understood that they'd 'lost contact' with the other aircraft in the manner described in the BASI report and although they suspected what had happened, weren't sure and so didn't say. However, I suspect that Pete Whitehurst may have also had an inkling/ been briefed on the possibility of what had gone wrong. It's the only reason i can think of that they were so far out of their designated search area (heading toward the dam) when they had the engine failure.
Absolutely there were some issues regarding supervision. The BASI report is actually very light on I subsequently found out some stuff about the way the flying camps were conducted by the OIC that makes my blood boil. Crazy stuff like clutch boxes in LGS (trucks) being trashed due to cadets driving them up and down the runway in the middle of the night (with a staff member in the truck at the same time) and a few other things as well. Certainly, after the fact I found out that aircraft departing 'in company' (which I took to understand as formation) to low fly past the phone box on the island off the spit in the burragorang was not an unusual occurrence. The OIC of the activity was overseas for much of the coronial enquiry (convenient) and thus the coronial enquiry didn't get to examine some aspects of the BUO prang that I felt were particularly pertinent. I've never read a copy of the findings but would like to do so. I certainly have significant disdain for the OIC and to this day believe that his actions/ inactions and the culture that he oversaw contributed directly to the prang of BUO.
Allana featured on one of those shows in the last few years whereby survivors of serious accidents are reunited with their rescuers. The paramedic who winched into the PLD crash site was featured also.
Anyway, that's about it from me on this one. Sorry if some found this boring.
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i was working at camden during that period and as others have already told the story i'll just add it was a sad couple of days that left me a little shell shocked so to say. One thing i do clearly remember about the scouts was that the whole operation came across as a little to loose for my liking. three aircraft almost came together whilst taxying. nuff said there. Other comments are pretty spot on about the other aother aircraft that wittnessed the crash.
FH
FH
Thanks Keg.
Small industry isn't it! And no, your post was far from boring, and as should be with these sort of things, hopefully lessons can be learned, even years later.
The time-line for the location/recovery of BUO is interesting. I know it was quite a while before the main wreckage was recovered, but I must admit I wasn't aware they had located the general area of the crash site as early as the next day!
As for you being sent home? In the last 25 years I've spent in this game, I've looked back and wondered "what if" a few times as well.
Fragile thing life.
regards,
Krusty.
Small industry isn't it! And no, your post was far from boring, and as should be with these sort of things, hopefully lessons can be learned, even years later.
The time-line for the location/recovery of BUO is interesting. I know it was quite a while before the main wreckage was recovered, but I must admit I wasn't aware they had located the general area of the crash site as early as the next day!
As for you being sent home? In the last 25 years I've spent in this game, I've looked back and wondered "what if" a few times as well.
Fragile thing life.
regards,
Krusty.
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I am pretty sure they found VH-BUO a couple of weeks later- 2nd week of Jan I think.
fencehopper - it wasn't the scouts it was the Air Training Corps. I think Alana was sued as she called them Air League in her book.
I was also at Camden on that day and used to be in AIRTC. The story I was told was that the second plane didn't see BUO go down but lost sight of it over the Lake. There definitely was a slack culture amongst some students and instructors ie, flying in formation and flying low.
I knew Andrew, Angeline and Rob. It was definitely one of the worst experiences of my life.
fencehopper - it wasn't the scouts it was the Air Training Corps. I think Alana was sued as she called them Air League in her book.
I was also at Camden on that day and used to be in AIRTC. The story I was told was that the second plane didn't see BUO go down but lost sight of it over the Lake. There definitely was a slack culture amongst some students and instructors ie, flying in formation and flying low.
I knew Andrew, Angeline and Rob. It was definitely one of the worst experiences of my life.
Nunc est bibendum
Technically both correct. IIRC it was the Scout AOC but the actual conduct of the flying camps was purely supervised by (then) AIRTC personnel. Having known the CFI of the Scouts pretty well I think he would have been appalled had he known the sort of crap that was going down on those flying camps. Whilst I didn't have much experience back then, I do recall there being a very different culture between the way the AIRTC operated on their flying camps (from discussions and observations) and the methodology used by the Scouts in the conduct of their operations. I'd rate the latter significantly higher than the former.
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I think some of the aircraft being used had the scouts logo on the fin. but long while back... all the operations were down around the scouts hangar as well. did they share faciliteis? seem to have some memories of the aero club involvement as well instructors or aircraft maybe.. but memory again. some thoughts about the location not being nailed until the other pilot fussed up. the search was mainly directed over terrain not the dam during the early part of the search.
from memory also the 210's engine failed from throwing a counterbalance due to extended low rpm settings i also remember thinking to myself that if i was involved in a search that only to have the minimum number of people on board, the pilot concentrates on flying the aircraft and leaves the looking to the others. use a aircraft that can fly and manouver at slow speeds. I too have for some reason or another missed the wrong flight. leaves one a bit stunned but thankfull and thinking that maybe i have something more important to achieve in my future.
Must find a copy of her book does any one have details of it,
cheers and blue skies to all, moving on.
FH
from memory also the 210's engine failed from throwing a counterbalance due to extended low rpm settings i also remember thinking to myself that if i was involved in a search that only to have the minimum number of people on board, the pilot concentrates on flying the aircraft and leaves the looking to the others. use a aircraft that can fly and manouver at slow speeds. I too have for some reason or another missed the wrong flight. leaves one a bit stunned but thankfull and thinking that maybe i have something more important to achieve in my future.
Must find a copy of her book does any one have details of it,
cheers and blue skies to all, moving on.
FH
Nunc est bibendum
I think that VH-MAW had the Scouts logo, as did the C172s. I don't think UQS had the logo at that time. The photos I've seen of Scout aircraft in recent times show that they've still got a Scout logo on them- albeit a 21st century version rather than the 'in your face' purple one of 20 years ago.
The Scouts and AIRTC didn't 'share' facilities per se. The AIRTC operation had it's Nissan hut towards the top of the hill and they used that for lectures, admin, etc. They may have staged some Ops out of the Scouts but I wouldn't have classified that as 'shared' operations. I always viewed it as a Scout facility/ AOC/ aircraft that the AIRTC were lucky enough to utilise for their flying activities.
As far as I know, the Scouts still run a very robust program on weekends and still enjoy excellent facilities.
The Scouts and AIRTC didn't 'share' facilities per se. The AIRTC operation had it's Nissan hut towards the top of the hill and they used that for lectures, admin, etc. They may have staged some Ops out of the Scouts but I wouldn't have classified that as 'shared' operations. I always viewed it as a Scout facility/ AOC/ aircraft that the AIRTC were lucky enough to utilise for their flying activities.
As far as I know, the Scouts still run a very robust program on weekends and still enjoy excellent facilities.
Thread Starter
Thank you all
My gratitude and respect to you all for the PMs and the replies.
It has been a success - with your help.
Nothing ever replaces the loss, especially for the families.
It has been a success - with your help.
Nothing ever replaces the loss, especially for the families.
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Where he went.
Don't recall Steve Curtis having an involvement in the loss of those two aircraft. Can't remember the name of the male last row survivor but it wasn't Steve.
Last he was seen as a heavy jet sim instructor for the rat.
The Eye
Last he was seen as a heavy jet sim instructor for the rat.
The Eye
Nunc est bibendum
Definitely an error. The other observer was a serving AIRTC cadet (not sure of rank but Leading Cadet or Cadet Corporal rings a bell). Not sure of his flying experience at the time but it wasn't unusual to have LCDTs on EFTCs at the time with significant flying time due to choosing that path in lieu of promotion courses.