VH-PGW PA-31P-350 15 June 2010 Crash Investigation
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Fair enough Remoak, for your ILS's in the UK you probably had a serviceable autopilot and a flight director.
Amazing how chief pilots have a fear of flight directors, or coupled approahes etc!!!
Remoak said
'And if you think that trying to fly an additional 23 miles with an aircraft in such a condition is smart... you are way beyond being a retard...'
And here is where you have completely lost my respect.
Pat yourself on the back and bask in your years of self indulgent glory.
I am embarrassed for you.
'And if you think that trying to fly an additional 23 miles with an aircraft in such a condition is smart... you are way beyond being a retard...'
And here is where you have completely lost my respect.
Pat yourself on the back and bask in your years of self indulgent glory.
I am embarrassed for you.
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If problems with the remaining engine toward the end of this flight is determined to be the cause of this tragic accident, does this not add to the argument LAND ASAP after first engine failure or if unable do not descend any further than required by S/E performance until assured of landing i.e. overhead the field.
Assy
Assy
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What if the senario is that he shut down the good engine by mistake (We know that
the remaining engine on descent was not producing full power) and then powered up at say 1500ft not realising his mistake when the engine didn't respond.
Just a thought!!!
The Dog
the remaining engine on descent was not producing full power) and then powered up at say 1500ft not realising his mistake when the engine didn't respond.
Just a thought!!!
The Dog
Under Dog
That possibility had certainly crossed my mind, especially with witnesses reporting an engine surging. At this stage though that is really for the investigators to determine. Anything we say here is only speculation.
That possibility had certainly crossed my mind, especially with witnesses reporting an engine surging. At this stage though that is really for the investigators to determine. Anything we say here is only speculation.
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Please guys, respect the families and Andrew and Kathy.
I suspect that 'BREEZE 01' may be a member of the media fraternity. If you are not, BREEZE 01, then apologies and understand that this matter is a sensitive issue. There will always be members' of the media who will trawl these forums for a quote.
Also, please remember that as with the CASA/ Airservices accident publications, that this is a learning forum and as such it is appropriate to learn from incidents and accidents in a hope that future accidents are minimised or avoided.
Discussion is healthy. Having said that, though, there is a tendency for people to pass judgement on situations and occurences when we are not in that situation.
I suspect that 'BREEZE 01' may be a member of the media fraternity. If you are not, BREEZE 01, then apologies and understand that this matter is a sensitive issue. There will always be members' of the media who will trawl these forums for a quote.
Also, please remember that as with the CASA/ Airservices accident publications, that this is a learning forum and as such it is appropriate to learn from incidents and accidents in a hope that future accidents are minimised or avoided.
Discussion is healthy. Having said that, though, there is a tendency for people to pass judgement on situations and occurences when we are not in that situation.
I can think of a number of checks, double checks, decisions and radio calls here in the comfort of my lounge room that I 'would have done' in that situation. However, if it were in the heat of a moment, confronted with a genuine engine failure and potential crisis in a light piston twin aircraft with some fog, coupled with operational demands....then who knows how I, or any of us would react.
My genuine heartfelt thoughts go out to the families.
My genuine heartfelt thoughts go out to the families.
When you live....
Surging engine
One possibility in my mind for the reported surging engine is that this was associated with the failed engine - not the 'good' one. It may have been delivering intermittent power or the pilot may have been exercising the throttle looking for a power setting that solved whatever problem he had.
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Would rather not.
It will all come out in due course.
And as a footnote, I am realising once again why i stopped visiting this website around 8 yrs ago....your all full of it !
It will all come out in due course.
And as a footnote, I am realising once again why i stopped visiting this website around 8 yrs ago....your all full of it !
Last edited by Aerodink; 23rd Jul 2010 at 23:32.
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I am curious to se the ATSB report when it finally comes out.
I am a ME trainer and want to see if it was an incorrect operational decision or a cascading failure that backed someone into an inescapable corner.
The PA31 is not the best performer on 1 engine but it isn't the worst but it is probably the the most critical in its class to CORRECT handling to have a successful outcome. ie speed, bank, yaw angle, cowl flaps, density, turbulence/control input rates etc.
It amazes me that every time a PA31 has an engine problem that the VHMZK too lean statement comes out from an ignorant industry and regulator. Do some research and educate yourselves. THE POH was written mostly by the marketing and sales department not the test pilots or engineers.
I am a ME trainer and want to see if it was an incorrect operational decision or a cascading failure that backed someone into an inescapable corner.
The PA31 is not the best performer on 1 engine but it isn't the worst but it is probably the the most critical in its class to CORRECT handling to have a successful outcome. ie speed, bank, yaw angle, cowl flaps, density, turbulence/control input rates etc.
It amazes me that every time a PA31 has an engine problem that the VHMZK too lean statement comes out from an ignorant industry and regulator. Do some research and educate yourselves. THE POH was written mostly by the marketing and sales department not the test pilots or engineers.
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Hi,
I've been following this thread and the initial thread any more details?, with regard to my job and procedures, we have all been taught to just return if you have a engine failure at or after v1, in the case of the pa31 it did happen up near Richmond the only thing i can say is maybe he couldn’t visually see Richmond airport? there were reports of fog in the area according to the initial report, so why wouldn't he just return to YBSK? I would have done the same as this young pilot RIP mate
,
remoak,
Even if the pa31 couldn't for some reason maintain height and Richmond was fogged in why would u try an approach there if u know you can’t get it and risk doing a 1 engine missed approach from there at a aerodrome you are unfamiliar with when he knew Ybsk was relativity clear.
Just be 2 cents worth
I've been following this thread and the initial thread any more details?, with regard to my job and procedures, we have all been taught to just return if you have a engine failure at or after v1, in the case of the pa31 it did happen up near Richmond the only thing i can say is maybe he couldn’t visually see Richmond airport? there were reports of fog in the area according to the initial report, so why wouldn't he just return to YBSK? I would have done the same as this young pilot RIP mate
,remoak,
Even if the pa31 couldn't for some reason maintain height and Richmond was fogged in why would u try an approach there if u know you can’t get it and risk doing a 1 engine missed approach from there at a aerodrome you are unfamiliar with when he knew Ybsk was relativity clear.
Just be 2 cents worth
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Would rather not.
It will all come out in due course.
And as a footnote, I am realising once again why i stopped visiting this website around 8 yrs ago....your all full of it !
It will all come out in due course.
And as a footnote, I am realising once again why i stopped visiting this website around 8 yrs ago....your all full of it !
I was made aware of something today that would indicate the wrong engine was shut down, so UnderDog may well be correct.
What a hero, who's full of it?
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Even if the pa31 couldn't for some reason maintain height and Richmond was fogged in why would u try an approach there if u know you can’t get it and risk doing a 1 engine missed approach from there at a aerodrome you are unfamiliar with when he knew Ybsk was relativity clear.
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Fog is fog mate 6 feet deep or 500ft still can’t see the rwy, he obviously didn’t go there for a good reason, I think its harsh for us almost 2 months later after reviewing all the data, when he would of only had seconds to gather and review and decide the best course of action! I heard rumors at Bankstown that the refueler may have topped of his aux tanks with jet a1, so after takeoff he may have switched to burn his aux’s and then got detonation on both engines or something like that just rumors going around my work.
"An AWS was also located at Richmond Aerodrome and the METAR issued at 0800 indicated that the wind was calm, the OAT 4º C, the dewpoint was 4º C, the visibility was 200 m with vertical visibility information being unavailable, and the QNH was 1033 hPa. An air traffic controller who was on duty in Richmond control tower later stated that the weather conditions at the aerodrome when the aircraft was flying over the Richmond area included a clear sky with a shallow fog that reduced visibility at ground level to 300 m."
From the report u think you would even consider going to Richmond if you head that metar on the radio! when Bankstown was cavok!
"The Bankstown Aerodrome automatic terminal information service (ATIS) ‘Bravo’7 was broadcast during the period encompassing the aircraft’s departure and subsequent return flight towards Bankstown. The ATIS information included a variable wind of 5 kts, an OAT of 6º C, CAVOK8 and a QNH of 1033 hPa. The pilot reported that he had received ’Bravo’ when contacting the Bankstown Surface Movement Controller at 0734, 6 minutes prior to departure."
"An AWS was also located at Richmond Aerodrome and the METAR issued at 0800 indicated that the wind was calm, the OAT 4º C, the dewpoint was 4º C, the visibility was 200 m with vertical visibility information being unavailable, and the QNH was 1033 hPa. An air traffic controller who was on duty in Richmond control tower later stated that the weather conditions at the aerodrome when the aircraft was flying over the Richmond area included a clear sky with a shallow fog that reduced visibility at ground level to 300 m."
From the report u think you would even consider going to Richmond if you head that metar on the radio! when Bankstown was cavok!
"The Bankstown Aerodrome automatic terminal information service (ATIS) ‘Bravo’7 was broadcast during the period encompassing the aircraft’s departure and subsequent return flight towards Bankstown. The ATIS information included a variable wind of 5 kts, an OAT of 6º C, CAVOK8 and a QNH of 1033 hPa. The pilot reported that he had received ’Bravo’ when contacting the Bankstown Surface Movement Controller at 0734, 6 minutes prior to departure."
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Seems at that even though the operator in question is presently grounded at the moment, they are still operating aero med transfer flights through another operator in Port. What the hell is CASA doing about this???!!!
I'd love to see the due diligence study they did before going down this road... them and the area health service concerned.
Another accident waiting to happen.
I'd love to see the due diligence study they did before going down this road... them and the area health service concerned.
Another accident waiting to happen.
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ejet3
No, fog is not just fog, It varies widely in it's properties. In this case, it was shallow fog (less than 2m thick) with a visibility in that shallow fog of 300m. Are you suggesting that with a vis of 300m, it is not possible to see 2m? Particularly from altitude.
Complete bollocks. There was absolutely no hurry from that altitude, he had plenty of time to think about it.
Of course you would think about it. Consider ALL the options, not just the obvious one.
If he did it after takeoff he would never have got to the altitude he did. Also makes you wonder why, if that was the case, he didn't change back to the main tanks when he had a problem... but we will never know.
No, fog is not just fog, It varies widely in it's properties. In this case, it was shallow fog (less than 2m thick) with a visibility in that shallow fog of 300m. Are you suggesting that with a vis of 300m, it is not possible to see 2m? Particularly from altitude.
he would of only had seconds to gather and review and decide the best course of action
From the report u think you would even consider going to Richmond if you head that metar on the radio! when Bankstown was cavok!
I heard rumors at Bankstown that the refueler may have topped of his aux tanks with jet a1, so after takeoff he may have switched to burn his aux’s and then got detonation on both engines or something like that just rumors going around my work.
I believe the other aeromed operator in Port is infact their 'opposition' company GADRIVR. I believe it's Premier Aviation Aircraft Charter which is part of Johnston Aviation. Airtex may be 'contracting' out their contract work to them ??
There used to be another aeromed operator in Port (years ago) which was Wingaway - which Airtex bought out.
There used to be another aeromed operator in Port (years ago) which was Wingaway - which Airtex bought out.
It is my understanding that the PA31P has main tanks only (no Aux's).
Also, the decision re: BK or RIC has been debated to death. What I think really put him up against it was the decision to throw away invaluable altitude. Some here have postulated that he may have been forced to descend by as yet unknown factors. I'm sorry, but the radar data (G/S-ROD) does not support either an Emergency descent nor a Driftdown.
I was chatting to an old collegue of mine the other day, an ex G/A and airline training Captain, now retired after 30 + years. "Crikey Krusty, if it was me at 7000' over RIC, and I made the decision to go to BK, I would have still been at 7000' over the top of BK! Why do you suppose he didn't do that?"
I could only shrug my shoulders.
Also, the decision re: BK or RIC has been debated to death. What I think really put him up against it was the decision to throw away invaluable altitude. Some here have postulated that he may have been forced to descend by as yet unknown factors. I'm sorry, but the radar data (G/S-ROD) does not support either an Emergency descent nor a Driftdown.
I was chatting to an old collegue of mine the other day, an ex G/A and airline training Captain, now retired after 30 + years. "Crikey Krusty, if it was me at 7000' over RIC, and I made the decision to go to BK, I would have still been at 7000' over the top of BK! Why do you suppose he didn't do that?"
I could only shrug my shoulders.