Colour vision restriction & instructor rating

[Tinstaafl]

ust incase anyone else has the same question here is a bit more info I have gleaned.

1) Instructor Rating requires CPL
2) CPL requires either Night VFR or Command Rating
3) Currently colour vision restriction precludes Night VFR
4) Command Rating comes in two parts (I think) day IMC and night IMC

Not quite correct. There is no requirement to hold a NVFR or instrument rating to hold a CPL. However (there's always a 'however'), if you can't pass a colour vision test your licence may (or will) be limited to 'Day only' so even future night or instrument training won't give night privileges.

An instructor rating requires NVFR privileges. This can be achieved by holding either a NVFR endorsement *or* a Command Instrument Rating + the addtional experience that then allows a CIR holder to use NVFR procedures. A 'bare' CIR isn't enough.

A CIR doesn't come in two parts. A CIR is a CIR. Once you have the rating you can use IFR procedures by day or night. If your licence has a Day Only restriction you might be able to get an IR that is limited to day only too.

Similarly with the instructor rating: You might be able to obtain an instructor rating without the NVFR requirement and have it limited to Day Only.

[Andy_RR]

Originally Posted by Tinstaafl

Not quite correct. There is no requirement to hold a NVFR or instrument rating to hold a CPL. However (there's always a 'however'), if you can't pass a colour vision test your licence may (or will) be limited to 'Day only' so even future night or instrument training won't give night privileges..

Tinstaafl, can you give us chapter and verse on this please? I've had a browse on the CASA website, but I've not yet found anything that might suggest this. Maybe I'm clueless as well as CVD!

[Andy_RR]

Oh, and whilst we're on this subject, which part of NVFR and IR flying requires colour-safe vision?

[Tinstaafl]

Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 Part V Section 5.104 specify the requirements for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence (Fixed Wing). Nowhere is a NVFR or IR mentioned. In fact, in other sections the regs. even specify that a pilot, including a CPL holder, may not command a flight that requires the use of a rating if s/he doesn't hold the relevent rating.

The CARs also allow CASA to issue a licence with conditions attached to it. A condition can be Day Only and I'm aware of Day Only licences being issued in the past.

As for colour safe vision, the colour blindness that causes the problem is red-green blindness. Consider how those colours are used in aviation:

* Position lights: Green for starboard, red for port. Those colours & their arcs of visibility are there for the purpose of determining orientation of another aircraft to maintain separation.
* Obstacle marking: red light.
* Signal lights: red, green (and white)
* Some cockpit lighting: red
* Taxiway lighting: Green centreline (or blue sideline, but the pilot doesn't get to choose which is used)
* Runway lights: Green at one end, red at the other
* Colours on charts: red is often used for restricted, military or prohibited airspace. This may be less of an issue if contrast is sufficient to see the markings.

Most of these are night issues. During daytime there are rather more visual cues to supply equivalent information.

[Andy_RR]

Originally Posted by Tinstaafl

Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 Part V Section 5.104 specify the requirements for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence (Fixed Wing). Nowhere is a NVFR or IR mentioned. In fact, in other sections the regs. even specify that a pilot, including a CPL holder, may not command a flight that requires the use of a rating if s/he doesn't hold the relevent rating.

The CARs also allow CASA to issue a licence with conditions attached to it. A condition can be Day Only and I'm aware of Day Only licences being issued in the past.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I understand clearly that NVFR/IR isn't a prerequisite for CPL, however I was more interested in what legal mechanisms exisit for CASA to preclude a night/IR rating from "colour-unsafe" persons. I presume from your response, it's just at the whim of CASA rather than any legal instrument?

Originally Posted by Tinstaafl

As for colour safe vision, the colour blindness that causes the problem is red-green blindness. Consider how those colours are used in aviation:

* Position lights: Green for starboard, red for port. Those colours & their arcs of visibility are there for the purpose of determining orientation of another aircraft to maintain separation.
* Obstacle marking: red light.
* Signal lights: red, green (and white)
* Some cockpit lighting: red
* Taxiway lighting: Green centreline (or blue sideline, but the pilot doesn't get to choose which is used)
* Runway lights: Green at one end, red at the other
* Colours on charts: red is often used for restricted, military or prohibited airspace. This may be less of an issue if contrast is sufficient to see the markings.

Most of these are night issues. During daytime there are rather more visual cues to supply equivalent information.

This must be written by someone who is not CVD, surely! Almost all of this is a non-issue to most CVD's as CVD doesn't mean BLIND, nor does it amount to a complete lack of ability to distinguish colour! Adding to this, of all of that list there is very little of consequence where the information is entirely colour encoded - almost always there is additional information and visual cues or contexts that mean the CVD will wind up with the correct interpretation virtually 100% of the time. I say virtually only because we're human and never 100% accurate even without CVD!

[ozblackbox]

Couldn't help but notice this post.

I am colour blind, well colour vision dfective (CVD) to be correct. I have Protanopia which, in my case, is a red green deficiency.

I started flying in 1991 and was told that i just had to do my medical and then apply to CASA for a dispensation. I had to do a Student Pilot Licence medical and then go the the Vic. College of Optometry to do a Farnsworth Lantern test.

I fail the Ishihara test (coloured dots) and I fail the Farnsworth Lantern dismally.

After applying for a dispensation to CASA I had my medical endorsed:

1/ Valid up to and including CPL.
2/ Valid in Australian Airspace only.

Valid up to and including CPL has been updated to conform with ICAO and now says: Not valid for ATPL operations. The Australian Airspace requirement isn't as restrictive as it sounds. If, for example, you wish to fly to Fiji you will need permission from the Fijian CAA to fly in their airspace. This is the case for any country you wish to fly to.

Colour vision hasn't stopped my flying and has practically never really given me any issues that I am aware of - hahaha. The only restriction is that I can't be a Captain on ac >5700kg - at this stage!

A colleague at work recently mentioned that he has a friend at QLink who is a colour vision defective Captain and has his licence endorsed for Australian Airspace only.

I hold an ATPL, have over 5500hrs total time (1200hrs at night), 12 years instructing experience - many as a Grade 1 multi-engine IFR instructor. 700hrs FO time on the Boeing 727 and over 1300hrs command time on turboprop aircraft conducting aeromedical flights - doesn't really get more challenging than that.

I'm not familiar with the current procedures and requirements to get a dispensation but they shouldn't have changed much. You can apply for the practical Lantern test if you fail the Vic. College of Optometry Farnsworth Lantern. This is done through the CASA medical division. They will send you out a letter and then you have to organise the practical test with your local CASA field office.

Currently the test involves the light signal test from the tower. 3 random lights at 250/300m and 3 random lights at around 600m. They may have increased the number of lights shown recently, not sure. You MUST get them all right. If you pass, they will send you out an unrestricted medical - all your colour vision limitations will be removed. From memory, if you fail this test you may resit it.

Hope this helps out a little or gives you some confidence to go ahead with your wishes. Nothing is impossible or too hard!

I don't log in much but always happy to receive a PM for advice.

[Tinstaafl]

The legal instrument is the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations, Part 67.150 or 67.155, as appropriate. Those regs specify the requirement w.r.t. colour vision perception. They even provide three different ways to meet this requirement with the ultimate method a practical demonstration of ability if unable to pass using one of the other tests.

One must conclude that the drafters of those regs. consider colour vision to be a flight safety requirement. Maybe some of them are CVD and maybe not. Doesn't change the fact that certain colours are used to signal critical information and the ability to perceive the difference is required.

As for alternative cues, perhaps that's why a Day Only licence is acceptable but not night flight. There are far fewer additional cues at night. If you believe that equivalent safety is possible in spite of the above then you need to convince CASA with evidence, not feelings. If you do then I look forward to sharing the airspace with you by day and by night.

[Andy_RR]

Originally Posted by Tinstaafl

The legal instrument is the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations, Part 67.150 or 67.155, as appropriate. Those regs specify the requirement w.r.t. colour vision perception.

So, presumably for all of us who have an "Australian airspace only and up to CPL" endorsement on our medicals (which is more than a few of us, it seems) there is no other legal impediment to getting an NVFR/IR rating?

Originally Posted by Tinstaafl

They even provide three different ways to meet this requirement with the ultimate method a practical demonstration of ability if unable to pass using one of the other tests.

I must admit, I didn't realise this option was available here in Aus, although I had heard of SODA in the US, which is FAA-speak for the same thing. I might explore that a little further.

Thanks!

A

[Biggles66]

The SODA by the FAA is the same thing as ozblackbox describes above for Australia. I did the SODA at an FSDO in the US and passed.

[YPJT]

Andy RR,
With regard to the Aus airspace up to CPL restriction only on medicals. That's what I have and have CPL, NVFR and IR. No problems at all.

[Andy_RR]

Thanks YPJT. That's comforting to know, whiilst I'm screwing the landing lights onto my RV-8 wings!

[Stimmy]

Hi all. I just went to Gatwick yesterday to do my initial class 1, im 17 and have always wanted to be a pilot as long as i remember... anyway, you can all see how this is going by now but ill carry on. I passed most areas of the examination easilly and was told i am physically fit except for my hearing which wasnt perfect (im guessing due to playing bass in a rock/metal band). The only thing i was worried about was my colour vision and sure enough, i failed the isihra plates. I paid the extra £120 for the further tests and then did the CAD, i failed with a red/green defficiancy. The thing that confuses me is whenever i am tested by other people they can never understand why im colour blind as i answer correctly... the only reason i was worried was becasue id done and failed the plates before when at an RAF museum.

Now i have a restricted class 1... where do i go from here? im absoloutly gutted I havnt actually started my flying training yet but do you think it would be worth requesting to do a lantern test or the test where you fly with and instructor and have to identify coloured runway lights? Is it possible to earn a reasonable living from being an instructor?

Any advise is most welcome and thankyou for taking your time to read.

[YPJT]

Stimmy,
bugger about failing the colour tests. Welcome to the 8% club.
From what I know, the UK has far more stringent colour vision requirements than here or USA. As was discussed previously, in Oz you can have a CPL, IR, NVFR etc but your medical will be endorsed Australian Airspace Only. The best I've heard anyone having in the UK was a daytime IR which seemed a bit strage but there you go. I think in terms of getting a CPL over there and being colour blind you are going to find it difficult.

You might find better info going to the medical forum and doing a search on the colour vision thread. Good luck with it.

[Stimmy]

Thanks mate, are you in the 8% too then? ill go and search like you suggested I think im still going to do my PPL anyway so if an opertunity does come up or there is a way around, ill be able to take it....

[YPJT]

Yes mate, I'm in the 8% too.

[Clearedtoreenter]

PPL is restricted to day operations and I was wondering if anyone has been able to obtain instructor rating with similar problem?

Why have you got that? Presumably if you get a CIR or NVFR it gets removed in Australia?

I know a guy who has Restriction No 13 on his Class 1 medical certificate, which states 'Holder does not fully meet requirements of ICAO Convention Chapter 6 of Annex 1'. That apparently means the Med Cert is only valid in Australia. He has the 'usual' red/green colour deficiency but has current CPL, CIR and Instructor Rating. So the Answer is 'yes' it can be done, but probably only in Australia. Same guy also hs a JAA PPL, which is restricted to day VFR only and cannot be extended beyond that. Some of us have an enormous debt to Arthur Pape and the AAT!

[osmosis]

For all those reading this thread because of your own specific need, do your own homework. Although the regs do change from time to time their essence remains the same, restrictions on colour blindness are enforced though it does depend on the degree of severity. The legislation is bull**** and, I suspect, likely to be based on 1930's technology. Today, there are options and procedures available at your cost to sidestep this nonsense if you are not severely effected. If you are, well, be warned. In either case contact Dr. Pape. In my day this was the letter passed around:

"Dear Sir

You have passed your recent pilot medical examination except that your colour perception does not meet the required standard.

However, you are still eligible for the issue of a pilot licence with the following operational restrictions endorsed on the licence:

"The holder of this licence is not permitted to pilot aircraft :
(i) by night:
(ii) within control zones unless the aircraft being flown is fitted with radio apparatus such that he can maintain two-way communication on appropriate frequencies;
(iii) in international air navigation except with the permission of the appropriate authority of the country concerned".

If you eventually obtain a Commercial Pilot Licence you will be able to engage in charter, agricultural, and flying training operations provided you pass the appropriate theoretical examinations and flight tests. All operations will be restricted to daylight flying only, by virtue of the above endorsement.

In addition, although you are unable to meet the colour perception standard, the following ratings may be granted once you are appropriately qualified :-

(a) Class One Instrument Rating (Daylight only)
(b) Class Three Instrument Rating (Daylight only).

Under no circumstances will any of the following licences and ratings be issued:-

1. First Class Airline Transport Pilot Licence
2. Second Class Airline Transport Pilot Licence
3. Senior Commercial Pilot Licence
4. Class Four Instrument Rating
5. Class Five Instrument Rating

A further requirement for the issue of a licence to you is the name and address of the organisation with which you propose to undertake your flying training."

[Easy Tiger]

CAD

Stimmy

Sat the CAD, YB OK but RG well off piste; "Significant Protan deficiency". The breakdown of privileges as follows: day flying only, I could instruct, do aerial work, and no public transport. Major sh**ter as the goal was HEMS / Police work.

I failed the plates back at school (1985); I sense I'd have failed the lantern too, though I'd give it a go for sh*ts and giggles.

Have to say I am pretty ****** off with the international variation with CVD restrictions. Let's us know how you fare mate.

ET

[osmosis]

There's a long thread going nowhere on this topic here:
http://www.pprune.org/medical-health...hread-3-a.html
Our own Aus regulator does give the option of an on-field test; speak with them directly. If you narrow your employment fields down enough and not move outside them it can, and has been, done. But don't forget you are generally competing with normal visioned candidates.

[chris12345f]

i got the icao convention chapter 6 of annex 1 restriction, but i can still fly at night even though i failed the ishihara, lantern and control tower signal test. i have also got no ATPL operations as a restriction.