Colour vision restriction & instructor rating
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Hi guys,
It's really great to read all the posts from other pilots who share a common problem. My life was turned upside down 24 years ago when I was completely shattered by the news that I was never going to be a commercial airline pilot, fly at night.. etc etc. From that point I fell in and out of flying training, thinking there was no real point, except that I just loved fying.
Well, i'm back in the swing.. I bought myself an aeroplane, started my own little aviation company and am finishing off my PPL over the next couple of months and determined now to keep going as far as I can.
I came across the CVDPA site last night after reading an article in AOPA.
It really gave me such relief to feel part of such a great group of pilots and am joining up today as a member!!!
Ironically, when I couldn't become a pilot all those years ago, I became an electronics technician & telecommunications technician... looking at colour coded resistors, components and wires all day long and never made a mistake... go figure!!
BIG thanks to Dr Arthur pape.
It's really great to read all the posts from other pilots who share a common problem. My life was turned upside down 24 years ago when I was completely shattered by the news that I was never going to be a commercial airline pilot, fly at night.. etc etc. From that point I fell in and out of flying training, thinking there was no real point, except that I just loved fying.
Well, i'm back in the swing.. I bought myself an aeroplane, started my own little aviation company and am finishing off my PPL over the next couple of months and determined now to keep going as far as I can.
I came across the CVDPA site last night after reading an article in AOPA.
It really gave me such relief to feel part of such a great group of pilots and am joining up today as a member!!!
Ironically, when I couldn't become a pilot all those years ago, I became an electronics technician & telecommunications technician... looking at colour coded resistors, components and wires all day long and never made a mistake... go figure!!
BIG thanks to Dr Arthur pape.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
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Kiwi CVD Pilots
For any Kiwi pilots, you may be interested to know that there is significant progress being made towards challenging the colour vision standards in NZ. It even recently had support on the floor or Parliament. See below for more info and a worthwhile read:
Colour deficient pilots: Is there light at the end of the tunnel?
A further legal challenge at the Australian AAT is also imminent, likely to be early next year and is again supported by Dr Arthur Pape. More info is available through the Colour Vision Defective Pilots Association (CVDPA).
There is certainly significant momentum starting to build now in our favour - should be exciting times ahead!
Colour deficient pilots: Is there light at the end of the tunnel?
A further legal challenge at the Australian AAT is also imminent, likely to be early next year and is again supported by Dr Arthur Pape. More info is available through the Colour Vision Defective Pilots Association (CVDPA).
There is certainly significant momentum starting to build now in our favour - should be exciting times ahead!
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
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some of the most talented people I've met are colourblind.
they cant help it.
it doesnt make them stupid and the problem cant be corrected.
if we can change wiring standards from red-black-green to brown-blue-green striped to remove the problem why then cant aviation make similar changes????
it is utter systemic organisational stupidity that this even remains a problem.
they cant help it.
it doesnt make them stupid and the problem cant be corrected.
if we can change wiring standards from red-black-green to brown-blue-green striped to remove the problem why then cant aviation make similar changes????
it is utter systemic organisational stupidity that this even remains a problem.
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Your quest was well answered on the first page - you will need a Farnsworth Lantern test and the matter will go to the medical panel at AVMED. You may pass legally and get the medical clearance to fly but still be unsafe in certain combinations of circumstances.
For instance for practical purposes, if its a problem with red , you may get into big trouble on a PAPI glideslope on an instrument approach late final.
In certain weather conditions, pilots with a red vision problem and some distraction have interpreted 4 reds as 4 whites, and flown themselves and their passengers into the ground thinking they were above slope. I can't quote the exact crash report - my memory was it was in Canada and not that long ago.
For instance for practical purposes, if its a problem with red , you may get into big trouble on a PAPI glideslope on an instrument approach late final.
In certain weather conditions, pilots with a red vision problem and some distraction have interpreted 4 reds as 4 whites, and flown themselves and their passengers into the ground thinking they were above slope. I can't quote the exact crash report - my memory was it was in Canada and not that long ago.
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How can I book a CAD test in England?
You'll probably find some better advice on that in Collective Colour Vision thread in the medical section of these forums. The use of the CAD is more widespread in the UK and some of the guys in that thread will probably be able to recommend where to go. The test was developed by City University in London and you can find more information on it here. It's just another laboratory based test that has no resemblance to flying an aircraft.
For instance for practical purposes, if its a problem with red , you may get into big trouble on a PAPI glideslope on an instrument approach late final.
In certain weather conditions, pilots with a red vision problem and some distraction have interpreted 4 reds as 4 whites, and flown themselves and their passengers into the ground thinking they were above slope. I can't quote the exact crash report - my memory was it was in Canada and not that long ago.
In certain weather conditions, pilots with a red vision problem and some distraction have interpreted 4 reds as 4 whites, and flown themselves and their passengers into the ground thinking they were above slope. I can't quote the exact crash report - my memory was it was in Canada and not that long ago.
Your remarks highlight the common misconception that CVD's have trouble with PAPI. CVD pilots have been operating in Australia now for 25 years without any safety issue and with no records of any accidents or incidents (confirmed by CASA in response to Senator Fawcett's recent questioning). This is exactly what the Empire Strikes Back thread was all about. Contrary to your suggestions, the only empirical evidence available shows that CVD pilots meet the same high standards in their flight & simulator checks as those with normal colour vision. Professional pilots with CVD fly PAPI approaches every day without issue.
The accident I'm guessing that you're referring to is the crash of FedEx Flight 1478 in Tallahassee, Florida in 2002, where the CVD co-pilot was implicated following a black hole approach at night using PAPI.
The medical evidence given in relation to the pilots CVD was from a single source who's enthusiasm for promoting more stringent colour vision standards is legendary. His evidence was not subject to the fundamental legal process of cross-examination. Dr Arthur Pape and his colleagues have researched this accident extensively including reviewing the almost 200 submissions which were relied upon in producing the NTSB's final report. In these submissions, there are numerous contradictions which infer that that the real culprit was the failure of the PAPI device itself to provide correct glideslope information to the three pilots on the flight deck under the prevailing meteorological conditions.
Of the three pilots, one had defective colour vision and two had normal colour vision. In the crash of FedEx Flight 1478 all three crew were actively involved in the approach and none saw the four red lights that the PAPI should have been displaying. They flew the aircraft as if the PAPI was showing four white lights, indicating to them that the approach was too high.
This alternative explanation for the crash is supported by three separate scientific studies which were conducted years earlier, from Australia, the USA and Canada. These studies showed that under certain meteorological conditions the signal from the PAPI could be degraded to such an extent that the observer would perceive a “fly down” display when in fact the approach angle was already dangerously low. This “fail unsafe” condition is independent of the colour vision of the observer.
You can see a summary of these findings in an article that Dr Pape wrote for the Journal of Australasian Society of Aerospace Medicine last year:
Last edited by brissypilot; 18th Feb 2014 at 23:02.
Hi Mimpe,
Thanks for your post. I am a fanatical believer in evidence-based aviation regulation, and particularly so when it comes to colour vision standards in aviation. I therefore challenge you to produce the evidence upon which you make the claim about the crash you mentioned. It is simply not acceptable to make a claim in the way you did concerning a crash (which if it were true would constitute vital evidence) without any reference or detail. Please give all of us the information that backs up your claim.
Cheers,
Arthur Pape
Thanks for your post. I am a fanatical believer in evidence-based aviation regulation, and particularly so when it comes to colour vision standards in aviation. I therefore challenge you to produce the evidence upon which you make the claim about the crash you mentioned. It is simply not acceptable to make a claim in the way you did concerning a crash (which if it were true would constitute vital evidence) without any reference or detail. Please give all of us the information that backs up your claim.
Cheers,
Arthur Pape
you may get into big trouble on a PAPI glideslope on an instrument approach late final.
Absolute rubbish, and as Dr. Pape says, produce the evidence, no assertions, just the evidence.
There are already enough nonsense ideas around aviation, too many examples of the triumph of the dictum: "Don't confuse me with facts, my prejudices are made up".
As Sgt. Joe Friday said, often, many years ago: "The facts, man, just the facts".
Tootle pip!!
PS: The CASA head doctor is a little bit astray ( a nice way of saying he doesn't know what he is talking about) when he/CASA claims that increasing use of colour demand Denison is out of date.
Aircraft instruments have always used the primary printing colours, and combinations, whether "round dials" (many of which are actually square, as in 2/3/4 ATR faces) the use of these colours in "glass" cockpits has not changed since the original TSOs were produced something like 35 years ago.
Please actively engage your Senators to help in this important issue. This both affects employees, employers.
CASA stated that they will not change existing holders medicals, well that is emphatically untrue as they revoked my ATPL. The inconsistency beggars belief.
If you want change you have to make some noise this will not go away.
Here is what I sent.
Dear Honourable Members,
My name is (Fill in the Blank). I am a (...) year old Airline Pilot with a Colour Vision Deficiency. I have held a Private Pilots Licence since (...), a Commercial Pilots licence since 1992 and exercised the privileges of my Airline Transport Licence since (.....). I currently am employed as (......) and have accumulated total flight time of around (....) hours. I am assessed at least three times a year on my ability to safely operate my aircraft in simulators and in the aircraft and pass.
I am writing to you all regarding the aggressive stance CASA is taking on CVD pilots and their careers.
Recently I renewed my Australian medical and was advised that I would no longer be able to exercise the privileges of my Airline Transport Licence, as I have been doing since (....), due to being “Unsafe” as I’m Colour Vision deficient.
There has been no industry consultation on these changes and they are without any safety justification. Senator David Fawcett has been actively trying to keep CASA honest regarding these changes however CASA seems intent on steamrolling changes through ignoring two AAT cases regarding this very matter and the indisputable fact that are a large number CVD’s have been flying in Australia for over 20 years. They have amassed 10’s of thousands of hours completely incident and accident free.
Re Arthur Marinus Pape and Secretary, Department of Aviation [1987] AATA 354 (9 October 1987)
Re Hugh Jonathan Denison and Civil Aviation Authority [1989] AATA 84; 10 AAR 242 (7 April 1989)
This new aggressive stance by CASA not only is a waste of the tax payers money, as I’m sure that it will be challenged by many CVD’s, but will also destroy many pilots careers and take a huge amount of experience out of the Industry if CASA is allowed to wind back the clock 25 years.
There is already one case scheduled for the AAT in July.
Please get on board this important issue. Senator David Fawcett has been a loyal and rational advocate on this issue please support him and let Australia lead the world rather than just blindly follow suit.
Your Sincerely,
CASA stated that they will not change existing holders medicals, well that is emphatically untrue as they revoked my ATPL. The inconsistency beggars belief.
If you want change you have to make some noise this will not go away.
Here is what I sent.
Dear Honourable Members,
My name is (Fill in the Blank). I am a (...) year old Airline Pilot with a Colour Vision Deficiency. I have held a Private Pilots Licence since (...), a Commercial Pilots licence since 1992 and exercised the privileges of my Airline Transport Licence since (.....). I currently am employed as (......) and have accumulated total flight time of around (....) hours. I am assessed at least three times a year on my ability to safely operate my aircraft in simulators and in the aircraft and pass.
I am writing to you all regarding the aggressive stance CASA is taking on CVD pilots and their careers.
Recently I renewed my Australian medical and was advised that I would no longer be able to exercise the privileges of my Airline Transport Licence, as I have been doing since (....), due to being “Unsafe” as I’m Colour Vision deficient.
There has been no industry consultation on these changes and they are without any safety justification. Senator David Fawcett has been actively trying to keep CASA honest regarding these changes however CASA seems intent on steamrolling changes through ignoring two AAT cases regarding this very matter and the indisputable fact that are a large number CVD’s have been flying in Australia for over 20 years. They have amassed 10’s of thousands of hours completely incident and accident free.
Re Arthur Marinus Pape and Secretary, Department of Aviation [1987] AATA 354 (9 October 1987)
Re Hugh Jonathan Denison and Civil Aviation Authority [1989] AATA 84; 10 AAR 242 (7 April 1989)
This new aggressive stance by CASA not only is a waste of the tax payers money, as I’m sure that it will be challenged by many CVD’s, but will also destroy many pilots careers and take a huge amount of experience out of the Industry if CASA is allowed to wind back the clock 25 years.
There is already one case scheduled for the AAT in July.
Please get on board this important issue. Senator David Fawcett has been a loyal and rational advocate on this issue please support him and let Australia lead the world rather than just blindly follow suit.
Your Sincerely,
