2010 Pilot's Award ... Duty Times
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2010 Pilot's Award ... Duty Times
Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I don't remember seeing it go past on Pprune, and a search didn't find anything ...
Having nothing better to do today, I was reading the 2010 Pilots Award for a giggle. I can't remember the last time anything changed except the pay rates, but ... Clause 24 is a gem ! It says that no matter whether your F&D times are determined by standard CASA rules, or exemptions, or you work under an FMS, your work hours must not average more than 38 hours per week unless you're in ag ops.
I'm sure this didn't used to be in there, and it doesn't sit easily with 90 hours/fortnight ! Anyone tried it on their employer ?
"24.2 Hours of work, days off and rest periods will be determined in accordance with the following provided that ordinary hours of work must not average more than 38 per week:
(a) the regulations approved by CASA from time to time;
(b) general or employer-specific exemptions to, or concessions under, the regulations approved by CASA from time to time; or
(c) a Fatigue Risk Management System (FRMS) that has been developed by the employer after consultation with the affected pilots and/or their representatives and approved by CASA to apply to particular employers and employees."
Having nothing better to do today, I was reading the 2010 Pilots Award for a giggle. I can't remember the last time anything changed except the pay rates, but ... Clause 24 is a gem ! It says that no matter whether your F&D times are determined by standard CASA rules, or exemptions, or you work under an FMS, your work hours must not average more than 38 hours per week unless you're in ag ops.
I'm sure this didn't used to be in there, and it doesn't sit easily with 90 hours/fortnight ! Anyone tried it on their employer ?
"24.2 Hours of work, days off and rest periods will be determined in accordance with the following provided that ordinary hours of work must not average more than 38 per week:
(a) the regulations approved by CASA from time to time;
(b) general or employer-specific exemptions to, or concessions under, the regulations approved by CASA from time to time; or
(c) a Fatigue Risk Management System (FRMS) that has been developed by the employer after consultation with the affected pilots and/or their representatives and approved by CASA to apply to particular employers and employees."
I would assume that average 38 hours a week, means you have to average all of the weeks in a year that you are working (ie. not on leave). If you get six weeks leave, you have to average the work load over 46 weeks - not two weeks!
I would have thought that that average would have to be for the working weeks, not leave. Leave is classed as working for 38 hours in that week as far as pay is concerned. They can't flog you 45hrs a week most of the year at the basic award salary and then make you take LWOP to bring the average down!
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Very topical oh Unhinged one! 38 hours per week is to bring the award in line with the new Federal Government Laws (Jan 2010). You can only work, on average over a 12 month period, a 38 hour week. So a 45 hour 'duty' week now effectively needs to include 7 hours of lunch hours/breaks so that the employee only 'works' 38 hours per week. 
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Quite astonishing ! It overrules any CASA Regs, Legitimate exemptions granted to employers, and FRMSs ... No-one wins !
Two reasons that it isn't a win for pilots trying to get on with their careers:
(1) It'll cut across the plans of motivated young pilots building flying hours, because it further cuts back the time they can actually be in the air; and
(2) It makes hiring casual staff more attractive to an employer than hiring full-timers !
It ignores the reality of flying an aircraft in the GAFA, rather than a desk in Canberra. So now we're all meant to have an hour a day off for lunch, even if there's no lunch within 200 miles and there's good flying to be done. Bah humbug !!
Two reasons that it isn't a win for pilots trying to get on with their careers:
(1) It'll cut across the plans of motivated young pilots building flying hours, because it further cuts back the time they can actually be in the air; and
(2) It makes hiring casual staff more attractive to an employer than hiring full-timers !
It ignores the reality of flying an aircraft in the GAFA, rather than a desk in Canberra. So now we're all meant to have an hour a day off for lunch, even if there's no lunch within 200 miles and there's good flying to be done. Bah humbug !!
Last edited by Unhinged; 10th Jun 2010 at 11:09. Reason: Clarity - Fingers typing faster than brain :-)
I think you're totally missing the point. It does
not prevent one from working more hours, making hay while the sun shines, etc. It just means you need to be paid appropriately if that's going to be the case on a regular basis, or given appropriate down time to bring the average down if it's just an irregular spike that brings the average temporarily above 38hrs.
not prevent one from working more hours, making hay while the sun shines, etc. It just means you need to be paid appropriately if that's going to be the case on a regular basis, or given appropriate down time to bring the average down if it's just an irregular spike that brings the average temporarily above 38hrs.
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Well, it certainly reads to me like it does prevent you from working more (and "making hay" as you say)
The clause says "ordinary hours of work must not average more than 38 per week".
I don't see anything about being able to exceed that if you get paid more.
Anyway, I've never had a job anywhere which met that particular criteria, and definitely not in aviation !
The clause says "ordinary hours of work must not average more than 38 per week".
I don't see anything about being able to exceed that if you get paid more.
Anyway, I've never had a job anywhere which met that particular criteria, and definitely not in aviation !
Well, it certainly reads to me like it does prevent you from working more (and "making hay" as you say)
The clause says "ordinary hours of work must not average more than 38 per week".
The clause says "ordinary hours of work must not average more than 38 per week".
I don't see anything about being able to exceed that if you get paid more.
isn't that the point? Employers are going to find it harder and harder to hide behind the Award?
Now if they put you on for longer than 38hours a week Duty Hours, they are no longer sticking to the Award Wage and as such need to have some kind of agreement in place with you and that gives us pilots a chance to negotiate and get paid more than we did before.
Is that how its meant to read and work?
Now if they put you on for longer than 38hours a week Duty Hours, they are no longer sticking to the Award Wage and as such need to have some kind of agreement in place with you and that gives us pilots a chance to negotiate and get paid more than we did before.
Is that how its meant to read and work?
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Yes, you can receive an 'over award' pay and then work more hours if the employee agrees to this and its fair. This will be how potentially employers will have to deal with it if they want their employees to work more than a 38 hour week. It was hard enough to 'do the job' at a 45 hour week, so the cost of keeping a full time pilot now has just gone up, quite a bit. So the cost of GA, has just gone up, again. However, it is an AVERAGE over a 1 year period so during busy/slow seasons it can be made to be flexible.
Lawrie Cox, time for you to step in and enlighten everyone as to what it actually means.
13 posters and no agreement yet!
13 posters and no agreement yet!
(2) It makes hiring casual staff more attractive to an employer than hiring full-timers !
Ie; based on the maximum 900 hours flying a year (average 75 per month or under 20 hours flying per week, leave included)
Single Engine below 1360kg.
Full time salary: $38-$42 per flying hour (including leave loading loss of licence etc...)
Casual Rate: $51+ per flying hour, Penalty rates for weekends, public holidays, after normal working hours etc... apply on top of this.
For the casual rates to match you would have to fly less than 700 hours a year, which is an average weekly total of less than 15 hours including six week leave.
It makes more sense to an operator to employ less pilots full time and make sure they fly the required hours a year.
If the boss just wants you to answer telephones get them to pay you the award for administration work, ASO pay is around $35-$40k a year.
The replies in this thread tell the reader a lot about how much "real world" (ie: outside of aviation) experience you guys have.
"Ordinary time" and "Ordinary hours of work" mean the hours that are included in your salary or wages. In the mining industry, that's 35 hours per week.
I worked 50-60 hours every week when I was mining and I knew that I would get paid 35 hours at "normal time", then he rest at double time. In addition, I would get 25% loading (x 35 hours) as a casual, and 25% loading (x 35 hours) for working night shift.
Aviation seems to be a little different to that
If you are working a 90 hour duty fortnight you are entitled to 38 hours pay at your normal rate, then 14 hours at the penalty rate (normally 1.5 times or 2.0 times the ordinary rate). That's what "ordinary" means. It's not about averaging it over a year - where does it say that in the award?
Are you going to wait until 30 June each year to go back and claim your overtime?
Of course not.
Sumdumguy said:
What did the Frds have to do with it? 
"Ordinary time" and "Ordinary hours of work" mean the hours that are included in your salary or wages. In the mining industry, that's 35 hours per week.
I worked 50-60 hours every week when I was mining and I knew that I would get paid 35 hours at "normal time", then he rest at double time. In addition, I would get 25% loading (x 35 hours) as a casual, and 25% loading (x 35 hours) for working night shift.
Aviation seems to be a little different to that
If you are working a 90 hour duty fortnight you are entitled to 38 hours pay at your normal rate, then 14 hours at the penalty rate (normally 1.5 times or 2.0 times the ordinary rate). That's what "ordinary" means. It's not about averaging it over a year - where does it say that in the award?
Are you going to wait until 30 June each year to go back and claim your overtime?
Of course not.Sumdumguy said:
The feds cop a lot of stick at times but I think they had a great result with that award.
