Final flight of VH-NGA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Conargo Pub
Age: 39
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The same media that hailed this crew as Hero's when it happened??? Jesus...
I believe the Magazine was owned by the same media company.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well apart from one tiny snippet of information what a waste of resources and time. 
The so called journalist should give back the oxygen he used during the making of the program.
However, it did confirm something I thought highly possible when reading the earlier threads on this crash, that is Pel-Air had a CASA exemption from the alternate fuel requirements.
The so called journalist should give back the oxygen he used during the making of the program.
However, it did confirm something I thought highly possible when reading the earlier threads on this crash, that is Pel-Air had a CASA exemption from the alternate fuel requirements.
Whilst I agree with some of what's being said here re Journo's reporting or lack thereof we pilots amongst us must bear in mind that the 'general' public have little idea about flying other than boarding a large airliner & being 'bussed' to somewhere else. What we have here to Mr & Mrs Joe Average is a story that to them is frightening & so it should be. Very few flights ever reach this outcome thank God but when they do they get full exposure right or wrong. The real story behind this is not why they run out of gas that's getting fairly obvious to those with some knowledge of OS Med Ops etc but what led this experienced (said loosely) pilot to get himself & his crew in this one way potential suicide mission? That's the question/answer I'd like to hear but will probably never know the real truth due ass covering, a typical human trait, we are all guilty of it some time in our lives big or small!
So we also seem to have a hero at the start of a story like this then a villain at the end? That's from a pilots perspective but from the gen public's angle is it safe to do such flights in a small jet? Very good question of which 2 answers could be applied.Yes given thorough pre flight planning WITH options & no as most small jets lack the range/endurance but are cost effective & at the end of the day this was most likely an insurance job & we all know that insurance Co's just love to pay for Gold class service right?.......NOT!!!
Anyway scape goats, there's always a scape goat! Forget the Capt he's made probably his last major decision on those type of Ops ( I hope) it's more now what are the regulators going to do about it (regarding education) other than run & hide after they now realize that they (CASA) are now also under the spotlight!
PelAir/Rex could do well to start owning up to some of this mess I do feel for the victims the innocent ones that relied upon a CASA sanctioned professional organization to get them safely to their intended destination. Their story tonight on TV would have a LOT of the general public jumping up & down that the tasked Co hasn't even sought their well being after what just have been a terrifying time in their lives.
Again as has been said many times to date their all safe that's a great outcome now we can only pray that we don't see this type of incident again.
A pilots license is just a piece of paper to go out & really learn but sometimes we stuff it up!
Wmk2
So we also seem to have a hero at the start of a story like this then a villain at the end? That's from a pilots perspective but from the gen public's angle is it safe to do such flights in a small jet? Very good question of which 2 answers could be applied.Yes given thorough pre flight planning WITH options & no as most small jets lack the range/endurance but are cost effective & at the end of the day this was most likely an insurance job & we all know that insurance Co's just love to pay for Gold class service right?.......NOT!!!
Anyway scape goats, there's always a scape goat! Forget the Capt he's made probably his last major decision on those type of Ops ( I hope) it's more now what are the regulators going to do about it (regarding education) other than run & hide after they now realize that they (CASA) are now also under the spotlight!
PelAir/Rex could do well to start owning up to some of this mess I do feel for the victims the innocent ones that relied upon a CASA sanctioned professional organization to get them safely to their intended destination. Their story tonight on TV would have a LOT of the general public jumping up & down that the tasked Co hasn't even sought their well being after what just have been a terrifying time in their lives.
Again as has been said many times to date their all safe that's a great outcome now we can only pray that we don't see this type of incident again.
A pilots license is just a piece of paper to go out & really learn but sometimes we stuff it up!
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 7th Mar 2010 at 08:36.
When you live....
You gotta laugh...........
"Norfolk Air Traffic Control"
And, for the kiwis, the plane was "November Gulf Alpha"
Whilst PLovetts supposition that maybe they did have exemption wasn't directly confirmed, the former CASA dude obviously felt that was irrelevant and belived Wally's concept that PelAIR should have ignored any such waiver.
UTR
"Norfolk Air Traffic Control"
And, for the kiwis, the plane was "November Gulf Alpha"
Whilst PLovetts supposition that maybe they did have exemption wasn't directly confirmed, the former CASA dude obviously felt that was irrelevant and belived Wally's concept that PelAIR should have ignored any such waiver.
UTR
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wal, I would agree with you if they hadn't spent the better part of the story dealing with dramatic imagery, emotional interviews and long shots of the heroic journalist.
There is a story in this but did we hear a CASA spokesperson as to why the exemption was granted? No. Did the refueller at Samoa get interviewed? The pilot may have said something as to why he didn't order full tanks.
The previous threads on this subject castigated the pilot, however, there is a strong chance he was acting within the company AOC. There is a huge argument that he should have gone beyond them in these circumstances. I am certain an old South Pacific hand would have tanked the thing to the brim but somehow I doubt the pilot fitted that description.
I would also be interested to know what the company reaction would have been had he tanked it to the brim and been able to land at Norfolk Island. Would he have been criticised by the company for operating the aircraft at heavier weights than it needed to be thereby increasing the costs of the flight?
I don't know the answers to these questions but I am not going to Monday morning quarter-back the pilot at this point. My suspicion is that no-one associated with this flight from CASA to the pilot is going to come out clean.
Underneaththeradar,
Whilst I might be wrong on the point I thought the program said that Pel-Air did have an exemption in their AOC. Yes, the former CASA fellow said it should have been ignored but he was an old SP hand.
There is a story in this but did we hear a CASA spokesperson as to why the exemption was granted? No. Did the refueller at Samoa get interviewed? The pilot may have said something as to why he didn't order full tanks.
The previous threads on this subject castigated the pilot, however, there is a strong chance he was acting within the company AOC. There is a huge argument that he should have gone beyond them in these circumstances. I am certain an old South Pacific hand would have tanked the thing to the brim but somehow I doubt the pilot fitted that description.
I would also be interested to know what the company reaction would have been had he tanked it to the brim and been able to land at Norfolk Island. Would he have been criticised by the company for operating the aircraft at heavier weights than it needed to be thereby increasing the costs of the flight?
I don't know the answers to these questions but I am not going to Monday morning quarter-back the pilot at this point. My suspicion is that no-one associated with this flight from CASA to the pilot is going to come out clean.
Underneaththeradar,
Whilst I might be wrong on the point I thought the program said that Pel-Air did have an exemption in their AOC. Yes, the former CASA fellow said it should have been ignored but he was an old SP hand.
Last edited by PLovett; 7th Mar 2010 at 08:42. Reason: To include something about the exemption
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: east coast
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What this highlighted was a big hole in the fuel procedures that CASA approved.A hole that is very likely in many other medivac operators procedures. I know one for a fact that is quickly changing them as we speak. You cant hang the pilot or pelair for that.You can cast opinions all day. But fact is they were operating within the rules.The pilot did fall short in many areas but.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another question is, "Was the footage of the wreckage shown NGA?"
If so, is it procedure in a westwind to ditch with the gear down?
No wonder the thing stopped so suddenly once it touched the water with the gear down.
If so, is it procedure in a westwind to ditch with the gear down?
No wonder the thing stopped so suddenly once it touched the water with the gear down.
Sprucegoose
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Hughes Point, where life is great! Was also resident on page 13, but now I'm lost in Cyberspace....
Age: 59
Posts: 3,485
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
What CASA need to clean up is the delineation between 'airwork' and 'charter'. If the line was not so blurry, then I expect this aircraft would have had fuel for an alternate.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
goin'flyin,
There is some supposition that when the fuselage broke the hydraulic lines were severed allowing the gear to free fall as the wreckage went to the bottom. Perhaps, perhaps not. May come out in the inquiry?
There is some supposition that when the fuselage broke the hydraulic lines were severed allowing the gear to free fall as the wreckage went to the bottom. Perhaps, perhaps not. May come out in the inquiry?
Yr right Plovett some old Sth Pacific hand/s would have filled the bird to the brim & some!
I know I would have & have done so EVERY-TIME!
Still as I have said in the past commercial pressure is always ever present in the back of EVERY professional pilots mind. It's a balance, good commercial practices & the safest option, often the two get a little mixed up!
"GF" it is NGA for sure the gear down would have been due possible hydraulic failure upon impact as has been discussed in other related threads recently elsewhere within these pages.
Wmk2
I know I would have & have done so EVERY-TIME!Still as I have said in the past commercial pressure is always ever present in the back of EVERY professional pilots mind. It's a balance, good commercial practices & the safest option, often the two get a little mixed up!
"GF" it is NGA for sure the gear down would have been due possible hydraulic failure upon impact as has been discussed in other related threads recently elsewhere within these pages.
Wmk2
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Melburn
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By far the best aspect of that 'report' was the re-union between the patient, her husband and the Medivac nurse...amazing footage 
Sure, he might of
up, but you can't hold it against him, he's so just so god damn good looking!
Sure, he might of
up, but you can't hold it against him, he's so just so god damn good looking!
I was chatting to my wife about the incident, after we'd both watched this story.
For her part, she was furious at the level of spin and froth about the skill of the pilot that was published in the days after the ditching. In her words, they built him up to be a hero! I'd just finished saying that he must've had reasonable hands and feet to pull off a night ditching in a 2m swell and she said "well, if he's such a good pilot, how did he end up having to ditch then?'.
Fair question I suppose.
What would be the airspeed/fuel flow penalty be for fuelling to full tanks on a 6 hr leg in a Westwind?
For her part, she was furious at the level of spin and froth about the skill of the pilot that was published in the days after the ditching. In her words, they built him up to be a hero! I'd just finished saying that he must've had reasonable hands and feet to pull off a night ditching in a 2m swell and she said "well, if he's such a good pilot, how did he end up having to ditch then?'.
Fair question I suppose.
What would be the airspeed/fuel flow penalty be for fuelling to full tanks on a 6 hr leg in a Westwind?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
If he had declared a fuel related emergency much much earlier, maybe some lateral thinking by the guy on the ground, and those in the air may have come up with some better ideas a lot earlier.
Instead he hoped he could get it on the ground and say nothing, all covered up by a large fuel uplift......which may have just been buried in paperwork.
It was clearly not a well briefed ditching and I still believe there is a good chance the gear was down, he seems to have been a bit resistent to telling the truth about things from before the flames went out, so why stop there.
CVR and FDR's will be very interesting indeed.
Instead he hoped he could get it on the ground and say nothing, all covered up by a large fuel uplift......which may have just been buried in paperwork.
It was clearly not a well briefed ditching and I still believe there is a good chance the gear was down, he seems to have been a bit resistent to telling the truth about things from before the flames went out, so why stop there.
CVR and FDR's will be very interesting indeed.
nga
I agree with Wally's posts.
Airmanship must preside, but it is a huge let down that if the flight was conducted within the law, i.e. SOP,CAO, CAAP etc, the law comprimised the safety of the flight.
I have mostly flown charters with the min required flight fuel - I have had held faith in the book, pressumably much like Dominik. (I will however add that rightly or wrongly I have had the tanks full to the gool on flights through LHI, NF, etc, i.e. left myselft an option).
I have long suspected that little or inadequate consideration is given by both company managers and the regulator to CASA exemptions and company SOPs. These two definitions of the law must provide, to the highest probability, for a safe flight by the lowest common denominator in the company operating the flight.
The PIC may apply Airmanship to fill the percieved holes of the SOPs/ Orders, regs, etc but there shouldn't be any holes in the first place. Is fuel load monitored and reviewed by anyperson other than the company accountant, i.e company operations or the regulator? If 9/10 Pilots depart the island with max fuel, more than what is rq by the rules, I would expect that someone would be in charge to monitor the trend and find out why this is so and reveiw the SOPs/ Rules.
as an aside: I have flown with company's where neither the CP, OPS manager or staff know anything about the company SOP. Most company's that I have flown for have disregard for the SOP. I have also flown with companies where much of the SOPs are irrelevant to the operation. How many SOPs that you know off have been cut and pasted from another company without thorough thought, or developed generally by a third party?
I found the 60-minutes program entertaining. The bit of info I took from the show was that PELAIR had reportedly not offered an apology, best wishes or gifts to the PAX involved. This fact is devestating to the service of Aviation. Perhaps herein lies a role for yet another middle manager - title: Head of Operations - Public Apologies... no wait that title doesn't have 100 letters in it.
PELAIR if you're listening... your fault or not, send a box of roses chocolates to the poor pax of your flight please!
Airmanship must preside, but it is a huge let down that if the flight was conducted within the law, i.e. SOP,CAO, CAAP etc, the law comprimised the safety of the flight.
I have mostly flown charters with the min required flight fuel - I have had held faith in the book, pressumably much like Dominik. (I will however add that rightly or wrongly I have had the tanks full to the gool on flights through LHI, NF, etc, i.e. left myselft an option).
I have long suspected that little or inadequate consideration is given by both company managers and the regulator to CASA exemptions and company SOPs. These two definitions of the law must provide, to the highest probability, for a safe flight by the lowest common denominator in the company operating the flight.
The PIC may apply Airmanship to fill the percieved holes of the SOPs/ Orders, regs, etc but there shouldn't be any holes in the first place. Is fuel load monitored and reviewed by anyperson other than the company accountant, i.e company operations or the regulator? If 9/10 Pilots depart the island with max fuel, more than what is rq by the rules, I would expect that someone would be in charge to monitor the trend and find out why this is so and reveiw the SOPs/ Rules.
as an aside: I have flown with company's where neither the CP, OPS manager or staff know anything about the company SOP. Most company's that I have flown for have disregard for the SOP. I have also flown with companies where much of the SOPs are irrelevant to the operation. How many SOPs that you know off have been cut and pasted from another company without thorough thought, or developed generally by a third party?
I found the 60-minutes program entertaining. The bit of info I took from the show was that PELAIR had reportedly not offered an apology, best wishes or gifts to the PAX involved. This fact is devestating to the service of Aviation. Perhaps herein lies a role for yet another
middle manager - title: Head of Operations - Public Apologies... no wait that title doesn't have 100 letters in it.PELAIR if you're listening... your fault or not, send a
box of roses chocolates to the poor pax of your flight please!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Probably some of a lawyer said 'say and do nothing!
It has been proven in the USA in the medical/hospital industry that this kind of approach ends up costing more! Why, the pi$$ed off punter feels so rudely treated they actually take the lawyers in all guns blazing, rather than a more civilised diplomatic approach which makes everyone feel better, better off and cost everyone less.
So to all you Air Ambo chasers......Take Note from the country that invented your industry!
of a lawyer said 'say and do nothing!It has been proven in the USA in the medical/hospital industry that this kind of approach ends up costing more! Why, the pi$$ed off punter feels so rudely treated they actually take the lawyers in all guns blazing, rather than a more civilised diplomatic approach which makes everyone feel better, better off and cost everyone less.
So to all you Air Ambo chasers......Take Note from the country that invented your industry!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the former CASA dude
The fact he was given less than 30 seconds on screen after having been interviewed by the 60 minutes crew for several hours some weeks before the program went to air, in my view exposed the show as a sham. Believe me, this former Examiner of Airman had a lot more to say during the pre-show interview process which would have exposed serious shortcomings both in the CASA oversight of Pelair and the operation itself.
OK, we are all aware that 60 minutes is just another docu-drama with accent on the human side (tear shedding, reunions of passengers and others involved and shots of beautiful scenery) but so much more in terms of the behind the scenes administration and planning of these air ambulance (insurance) flights was consigned to the bin by 60 minutes in favour of cinematic drama for the masses gazing at their plasma TV's.