Final flight of VH-NGA
The 60mins segment served a good purpose - try not to get too caught up in the specifics and understand that they were presenting the show in a manner that your average viewer will comprehend. (in many cases, statistically the audience has a grade 8 education!).
Yes, there was nothing 'too' mindblowingly new about it for most of us - on the other hand it will cause ripples that have the potential to reveal the many core issues people speak of (inept regulator - dodgy management - etc).
The last decade has seen more than a couple of close calls on flights to and from NLK - some well known, others not so much. My concern is whether this will be a big enough wake up call for bean counters to understand that they are toiling with human lives and not just insurance premiums. The true test of tombstone technology is whether lessons can be learnt from 'close calls' or does it continue until a memorial is erected.
The issue is amplified by the fact that like erebus for nz, such an event has the potential to affect us all on a very very personal level.
I fear that if this is not enough to spur the regulator into being more than a token paper tiger, what will be must surely be an incomprehensible disaster.
If it were to do with increasing fees, adding a level of administration to medicals, exams or so forth, they would be far more proactive??
Yes, there was nothing 'too' mindblowingly new about it for most of us - on the other hand it will cause ripples that have the potential to reveal the many core issues people speak of (inept regulator - dodgy management - etc).
The last decade has seen more than a couple of close calls on flights to and from NLK - some well known, others not so much. My concern is whether this will be a big enough wake up call for bean counters to understand that they are toiling with human lives and not just insurance premiums. The true test of tombstone technology is whether lessons can be learnt from 'close calls' or does it continue until a memorial is erected.
The issue is amplified by the fact that like erebus for nz, such an event has the potential to affect us all on a very very personal level.
I fear that if this is not enough to spur the regulator into being more than a token paper tiger, what will be must surely be an incomprehensible disaster.
If it were to do with increasing fees, adding a level of administration to medicals, exams or so forth, they would be far more proactive??
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YouTube - Norfolk Island Medevac Ditching
Norfolk Local news... Amazing.. D should be buying these guys drinks for the rest of his life..
Dog
Norfolk Local news... Amazing.. D should be buying these guys drinks for the rest of his life..
Dog
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KLN94
I've worked in EMS since 1986 the catchcry is always "risk vs gain" - yes sometimes, for any number of many reasons, the aircraft does not fly and the outcome is not good.
GAGS
I've worked in EMS since 1986 the catchcry is always "risk vs gain" - yes sometimes, for any number of many reasons, the aircraft does not fly and the outcome is not good.
GAGS
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by KLN94
medivacing a patient suffereing 'elective surgery' complications
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Apart from the aircrew issues, will also be interesting to see the decision making matrix used by the Careflight crew in deciding the case warranted a night-time, long-distance, overwater retrieval....
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will also be interesting to see the decision making matrix used by the Careflight crew in deciding the case warranted a night-time, long-distance, overwater retrieval....
When the insurance companies get around to approving the task, you go (as long as it is legal to do so, all other things considered). Usually, for some reason, the decisions are made late afternoon/early evening, so you are in for an all nighter most of the time.
Passingbay what was the F/O supposed to do? Smash him over the head with the fire axe, take control and divert prior to PNR? Get real; this is G.A. not some outfit with 'Captain I must have your attention' written into its ethos.
F/O training in G.A. is not quite as thorough as it is with the real airlines, so I don't think it right to suggest that the lady deserves to have her licence pulled for being unfortunate enough to be there.
F/O training in G.A. is not quite as thorough as it is with the real airlines, so I don't think it right to suggest that the lady deserves to have her licence pulled for being unfortunate enough to be there.
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Falling Leaf Long distance + overwater + night = a host of planning issues for the aircrew, such as fatigue, fuel, weather, navaids, alternates etc, most of which have been done to death here. With these issues in mind, and in consultation with the aircrew, the medical crew need to consider whether they believe the patient condition warrants the added risks, or whether the task can be delayed until a lower risk time....like daylight. Then they ask whether the aircrew are happy to undertake the flight.
The aircrew IS ABSOLUTELY IN A POSITION TO KNOCK THE TASKING BACK, regardless HOW urgent the medical crew (or insurer or anyone else) say it is.
Given that the patient was able to swim for 90 minutes post crash, then walk up the stairs into the RPT the next day..........
The aircrew IS ABSOLUTELY IN A POSITION TO KNOCK THE TASKING BACK, regardless HOW urgent the medical crew (or insurer or anyone else) say it is.
Given that the patient was able to swim for 90 minutes post crash, then walk up the stairs into the RPT the next day..........
Hempy,
I gathered from the previous thread that in the WW, if the hydraulics fail (eg when aeroplane broke in three after impact/on the way down to the seabed) the gear falls down. Nothing sinister methinks.
Still can't understand, given that it was a ditching and not CFIT, why the aircraft is sitting at the bottom of the ocean with it's gear down....anyone??
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I'm with Wally. What background influences are sitting in the background to this whole drama?
This may be the start of some sort of heavier regulation in regards to GA ops and not before time.
One can wish I suppose.
This may be the start of some sort of heavier regulation in regards to GA ops and not before time.
One can wish I suppose.
Bottums Up
Bloggs, I was talking with one of your off-sider's t'other day, who used to fly same type with the same organisation. If I understood his answer to me on the gear issue, he said there's a mechanical up-lock on the gear.
If correct, this doesn't explain the gear being down because of a hydraulic failure.
Counter-rotation, many organisations working in the region don't permit medical attention of the order undertaken, and direct their staff/families back home where better medical attention is available.
If correct, this doesn't explain the gear being down because of a hydraulic failure.
Counter-rotation, many organisations working in the region don't permit medical attention of the order undertaken, and direct their staff/families back home where better medical attention is available.
KLN,
It has already been said, but I'd just like to enforce the message.
Coming from an aeromedical pilot myself, I would NEVER endanger the lives of myself or my crew, for anyone elses life. Yes, we do have the option of declaring a mercy flight, however mercy flights are still very controlled situations, whereby we might be breaking a rule, however we are trained and competent in completing the alternative means (such as a car headlight landing).
I would not, ever, declare a mercy flight for things such as going below approach minima's, into somewhere like Norfolk Island, just because someone is dieing at the other end.
That's part of the unfortunate end of our job. Sometimes decisions we make to protect the lives of our crew and ourselves, may mean that someone on the ground is going to die.
morno
It has already been said, but I'd just like to enforce the message.
Coming from an aeromedical pilot myself, I would NEVER endanger the lives of myself or my crew, for anyone elses life. Yes, we do have the option of declaring a mercy flight, however mercy flights are still very controlled situations, whereby we might be breaking a rule, however we are trained and competent in completing the alternative means (such as a car headlight landing).
I would not, ever, declare a mercy flight for things such as going below approach minima's, into somewhere like Norfolk Island, just because someone is dieing at the other end.
That's part of the unfortunate end of our job. Sometimes decisions we make to protect the lives of our crew and ourselves, may mean that someone on the ground is going to die.
morno
There should be a mechanical uplock. While not common a total loss of hydraulic pressure could cause the gear to extend if the fluid is lost from the system.
Sounds to me like the gear was left down which would also explain why the fuselage is in pieces.
Sounds to me like the gear was left down which would also explain why the fuselage is in pieces.
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Are we to expect an amendment to CAO82 (i think it was 82?) with regards to the alternate requirements/"remote" aerodromes?
You may remember the ambiguity raised in the previous NLK threads, and the different interpretations. This accident may cause CASA to amend them to something more clear-cut.....
Especially considering it appears (from other reports) that the supposed CASA dispensation for Pel-Air to not carry alternate fuel on aeromed flights may have been a somewhat contributing factor. The words 'arse covering' come to mind now!
Bloggs, in regards to Hempy's post, I've got the feeling that he means as the plane is still 'accessible' (ie not completely destroyed into a million bits), then how come it hasn't been raised to the surface?
Probably cost- but one would think recovering it may also provide other useful information.
Lester, it appears that "people with Westwind knowledge" have differing views on how the gear stays up! Some have said no uplocks, and just recently it has been mentioned that they do... Doesn't help those with no knowledge figure out what is going on!
You may remember the ambiguity raised in the previous NLK threads, and the different interpretations. This accident may cause CASA to amend them to something more clear-cut.....
Especially considering it appears (from other reports) that the supposed CASA dispensation for Pel-Air to not carry alternate fuel on aeromed flights may have been a somewhat contributing factor. The words 'arse covering' come to mind now!
Bloggs, in regards to Hempy's post, I've got the feeling that he means as the plane is still 'accessible' (ie not completely destroyed into a million bits), then how come it hasn't been raised to the surface?
Probably cost- but one would think recovering it may also provide other useful information.
Lester, it appears that "people with Westwind knowledge" have differing views on how the gear stays up! Some have said no uplocks, and just recently it has been mentioned that they do... Doesn't help those with no knowledge figure out what is going on!
Regarding the gear system in the Westwind, the following is a direct quote from the FlightSafety Westwind pilots training manual.
Normal Extension
Moving the landing gear control lever down positions the selector valve to direct pressure to the uplock cylinders on all three gear, releasing the uplocks. Pressure is also applied to the aft actuating cylinder on each main gear and to the extend side of the nose gear actuating cylinder to extend the gear.
Emergency Extension
If the main hydraulic system fails the landing gear can be extended with nitrogen pressure.
Placing the landing gear control lever down positions the selector valve to create a return path for fluid that had been trapped in the uplock cylinders.
Compressed springs extend the uplock cylinders, releasing the uplock mechanisms, and the gear free-falls toward the extended position.
It goes on to say that the emergency gear down lever will assure downlocking by applying nitrogen pressure to the relevant cylinders. (My paraphrasing of this paragraph.)
Looking at the hydraulic circuit diagram (which I have no idea how to post here), it is clear that if any of the uplock or retract lines are severed or leak this would have the same effect as positioning the gear control lever down and allow the compressed springs to extend the uplock cylinders and release the uplock mechanisms.
So it seems to me that the gear could be extended if the hydraulic lines to the uplock cylinders were damaged in the ditching. This is not to say that it did happen this way but it could have.
Normal Extension
Moving the landing gear control lever down positions the selector valve to direct pressure to the uplock cylinders on all three gear, releasing the uplocks. Pressure is also applied to the aft actuating cylinder on each main gear and to the extend side of the nose gear actuating cylinder to extend the gear.
Emergency Extension
If the main hydraulic system fails the landing gear can be extended with nitrogen pressure.
Placing the landing gear control lever down positions the selector valve to create a return path for fluid that had been trapped in the uplock cylinders.
Compressed springs extend the uplock cylinders, releasing the uplock mechanisms, and the gear free-falls toward the extended position.
It goes on to say that the emergency gear down lever will assure downlocking by applying nitrogen pressure to the relevant cylinders. (My paraphrasing of this paragraph.)
Looking at the hydraulic circuit diagram (which I have no idea how to post here), it is clear that if any of the uplock or retract lines are severed or leak this would have the same effect as positioning the gear control lever down and allow the compressed springs to extend the uplock cylinders and release the uplock mechanisms.
So it seems to me that the gear could be extended if the hydraulic lines to the uplock cylinders were damaged in the ditching. This is not to say that it did happen this way but it could have.
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Sorry if this is a naive question or if it's been answered already (couldn’t find an answer)… I know this is the million dollar question but why would there be company/management/peer pressure for a PIC to takeoff for such a flight without an alternate?
Is it simply economics? (i.e. lower take-off weight = less fuel burn = cheaper flight/more profit?)...
How much extra profit would a company be making by 'encouraging' their flight crew to take these risks? Are we talking hundreds of dollars saved, thousands?
Thanks for any answers
Is it simply economics? (i.e. lower take-off weight = less fuel burn = cheaper flight/more profit?)...
How much extra profit would a company be making by 'encouraging' their flight crew to take these risks? Are we talking hundreds of dollars saved, thousands?
Thanks for any answers
The fuel price differentials between Apia, Norfolk and Brisbane would certainly save a few hundred dollars if fuel uplifts were optimised on a trip like this. Just guessing, but I would expect fuel to be cheaper in Apia than Norfolk, so the argument about minimising fuel costs doesn't seem right in this case. As for the 'it costs fuel to carry fuel' argument; this is true of large aircraft. It would hardly be a measurable factor in something the size of a small corporate jet. Going at max fuel might cost a few bucks in fuel excess burn , but in this case more than offset by the cost differential.