I need to vent! CV Rage!
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A format for a resume (non-aviation) once that really caught my eye was from an applicant who posted a small logo from each previous company he'd worked for in the left margin beside the relevant work experience. Probably broke copyright laws, but the result looked fantastic. He had the experience to get the interview too.
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And if they do, then are you saying it's actually illegal to ask for it?
124 Unnecessary information
(1) A person must not ask another person, either orally or in writing, to supply information on which unlawful discrimination might be based.
(3) It is a defence to a proceeding for a contravention of subsection (1) if the respondent proves, on the balance of probabilities, that the information was reasonably required for a purpose that did not involve discrimination.
Example--
An employer would contravene the Act by asking applicants for all jobs whether they have any impairments, but may ask applicants for a job involving heavy lifting whether they have any physical condition that indicates they should not do that work.
This is from the Queensland Act, but I imagine they all have a similar escape clause.
Basically, if you can show that you asked for the information for a legitimate purpose, such as security checks (which is probably the Qantaslink excuse) you're in the clear.
I have some recruitment experience in the entertainment industry, where you can ask all sorts of questions that aren't usually allowed (about appearance, build, age etc) because these things are deemed integral to being a model / actor. Basically, you can't sue a strip joint for discrimination for not employing you as a stripper because you're an overweight fifty year old male.
My understanding is that you need to be careful that any questions you ask specifically pertain to the job you're advertising. In this way, asking someone if they're prepared to travel is okay if the job requires travelling, but asking them if they're married (and then assuming they're not prepared to travel) can be seen as discriminatory.
This post is a great guide to CVs, not just in aviation, and I've forwarded it to several school leaving friends who are looking for work
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 12th Oct 2009 at 15:11.
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Basically, you can't sue a strip joint for discrimination for not employing you as a stripper because you're an overweight fifty year old male.
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johnriketes
If the person was clearly not qualified, they got the standard "thanks but no thanks" letter - but if they were otherwise excellent candidates and possibilities for the future, they got an email and a letter along the lines of "not right now but keep in touch". If I didn't have too much work on, they got a phone call.
If they were qualified and of interest to us, they got a letter and email explaining our current hiring position and advising them of a likely date for further contact. I then contacted them about once a month via email with updates, until they were either offered an interview or it was decided that their application would go no further, which I normally advised via email with the offer of a chat on the phone if they wanted to know why.
If they were qualified but not of interest to us, I once again emailed them and offered a phone conversation to explain why, and suggested ways to remedy the situation.
If we liked them and wanted to interview them, they got a phone call and a letter with a date for interview, selection day and sim check.
Every letter got a response, which took hours but was considered a good investment in our future recruitment landscape. I took the view that a company which claimed to value it's employees highly (as ours did), should also value prospective employees highly, and be consistent in it's treatment of everyone that had contact with us regarding employment. In other words, there shouldn't be a difference between the way a prospective employee and an actual employee is treated.
This worked well for us, and meant that when the pool of pilots started to dry up from time to time, we normally suffered less than most because our pool of applicants was larger and more loyal, as they appreciated our efforts to keep them in the loop.
Ozzie Mozzie
Maybe for smaller operators, but not for airlines, they'll just put you through it again anyway.
PDF is by far the safest. As you say, don't even consider .docx. If I can't open it, I won't read it! Although you should always try and send a paper one as backup.
Colour doesn't matter, I'm only interested in the information on the page. It doesn't help your application, but it won't hurt it either. It's just noise (and not very professional).
Tail wheel
That's real old school. You can tell an awful lot about someone from how they present themselves in a photo, particularly if you know how to "read" the photo. We insisted on them (as most airlines do these days), as they are a very useful screening tool.
Let me pose a question to you. Did you reply or acknowledge to all CV submitting hopefuls, whether it be the standard letter of rejection or at the very least an automated response on receipt of CV? An honest reply will tell me a lot about the company you worked for and possibly a bit about yourself.
If they were qualified and of interest to us, they got a letter and email explaining our current hiring position and advising them of a likely date for further contact. I then contacted them about once a month via email with updates, until they were either offered an interview or it was decided that their application would go no further, which I normally advised via email with the offer of a chat on the phone if they wanted to know why.
If they were qualified but not of interest to us, I once again emailed them and offered a phone conversation to explain why, and suggested ways to remedy the situation.
If we liked them and wanted to interview them, they got a phone call and a letter with a date for interview, selection day and sim check.
Every letter got a response, which took hours but was considered a good investment in our future recruitment landscape. I took the view that a company which claimed to value it's employees highly (as ours did), should also value prospective employees highly, and be consistent in it's treatment of everyone that had contact with us regarding employment. In other words, there shouldn't be a difference between the way a prospective employee and an actual employee is treated.
This worked well for us, and meant that when the pool of pilots started to dry up from time to time, we normally suffered less than most because our pool of applicants was larger and more loyal, as they appreciated our efforts to keep them in the loop.
Ozzie Mozzie
Would a current first aid certificate be relevant?
Is there a preferred computer programme format for resumes
Colour doesn't matter, I'm only interested in the information on the page. It doesn't help your application, but it won't hurt it either. It's just noise (and not very professional).
Tail wheel
I am not interested in what you look like so don't include a photo.
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Another little tip:
If you're emailing the resume, label the attachement so it's easy to file at the other end, eg. "Smith_J 102009". If you're slow mailing it, then make sure it is easy to find in the file cabinet.
If you're emailing the resume, label the attachement so it's easy to file at the other end, eg. "Smith_J 102009". If you're slow mailing it, then make sure it is easy to find in the file cabinet.
You can tell an awful lot about someone from how they present themselves in a photo, particularly if you know how to "read" the photo. We insisted on them (as most airlines do these days), as they are a very useful screening tool.
It was suggested in a recruiting book I read years ago that photo's on resumes were a big no no unless it was the industry norm (apparently for actors it's common) The book argued that (especially for girls) it sent out the wrong message and you might get ruled out by how you looked. Also girls might get ruled out too by actually looking too good. If you're some cracking sort 22 year old and the bosses wife is screening the resumes she might just accidentally lose your resume as you are seen as a threat. It was also suggested in the book that people are cynical about people who post up their photos. They were suggesting that the perception of people who put photos on resumes were trying to make up for a lack of ability.
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That's real old school. You can tell an awful lot about someone from how they present themselves in a photo, particularly if you know how to "read" the photo. We insisted on them (as most airlines do these days), as they are a very useful screening tool.
Excepting, of course, if the person is dishevelled/unshaven/looking like rubbish in general, which would match some CVs I've seen.
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In Australia, photos are out unless you're applying for something in entertainment that can actually use appearance as a deciding factor. Passport photos may be required in some cases (although I can't think of any offhand), but not as part of your CV.
You cannot judge someone's capabilities as a pilot based on a photograph. You might be able to judge their apparent professionalism, enthusiasm, and hygeine, but because you're assessing a photo it can be grossly inaccurate. You are leaving the door wide open to be discriminated against if you include one with your resume.
Having said that, photos can be useful as 'memory joggers' for an employer who wants to put a face to a name... Be very, very careful though!
If you're applying as a pilot, in most cases you want to use a resume instead of a CV. Academic positions and some other industries use CVs (which are longer and include more details - job descriptions etc). Resumes are shorter and are more about the headings rather than the explanations. Keep it to 2 pages max (one sheet).
You cannot judge someone's capabilities as a pilot based on a photograph. You might be able to judge their apparent professionalism, enthusiasm, and hygeine, but because you're assessing a photo it can be grossly inaccurate. You are leaving the door wide open to be discriminated against if you include one with your resume.
Having said that, photos can be useful as 'memory joggers' for an employer who wants to put a face to a name... Be very, very careful though!
If you're applying as a pilot, in most cases you want to use a resume instead of a CV. Academic positions and some other industries use CVs (which are longer and include more details - job descriptions etc). Resumes are shorter and are more about the headings rather than the explanations. Keep it to 2 pages max (one sheet).
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Good Thread!
A few tips from my experience of employing over 300 pilots.
2 pages Max if you have a large amount of experience. 1 page is better. I do not want to read you personnel goals in aviation.
Must have Licence type, Medical Expiry, Instrument rating type and expiry, Total hours, Multi Command Hours in a place very easy to read. This info is the most important, if you have minimums the rest is read. If I can't find it on first glance it gets filed in file 13 instantly!
2 crew hours Command or F/O if the company operates Transport aircraft. If you have zero hours 2 crew - state it.
Instructor rating or Training and Checking experience if you have any.
Type Endorsements and hours in Command or F/O (include command endorsement if you have one but where only employed as a F/O).
I do not want to read every single you have flown. If you have never flown a twin – state it!
Do your homework, if the company you are applying too operates singles and C206 – state the hours on type if you have any. If they only operate twins, stating every single type you have flown just shows you have not done your homework!
If you have all ATPL subjects - state it. If you have 2 remaining - state it. I do not want to read every subject and result, just if you have all credits or not.
I am not interested in any way shape of form of an "Aviation Degree". All one of those tells me is that you have more money than sense!
I am not interested in references, I never call the ones you include as I can always find people who know you!
If you want to include marital status and age, go ahead, it shows you have nothing to hide. If you don't include it and you make it to interview and the position is out in the boondocks with single accommodation supplied, then it is up to you to accept or decline, you will get no special treatment to see your family and don't expect any!
Never send paper resumes, they get lost. Resumes emailed that have minimums get saved. Everything else goes in file 13. DON'T EXPECT A REPLY!
Don't include you photo; you have no idea if the girls in the office open all mail. If they do you will be scrutinised and remarks passed around!
A few tips from my experience of employing over 300 pilots.
2 pages Max if you have a large amount of experience. 1 page is better. I do not want to read you personnel goals in aviation.
Must have Licence type, Medical Expiry, Instrument rating type and expiry, Total hours, Multi Command Hours in a place very easy to read. This info is the most important, if you have minimums the rest is read. If I can't find it on first glance it gets filed in file 13 instantly!
2 crew hours Command or F/O if the company operates Transport aircraft. If you have zero hours 2 crew - state it.
Instructor rating or Training and Checking experience if you have any.
Type Endorsements and hours in Command or F/O (include command endorsement if you have one but where only employed as a F/O).
I do not want to read every single you have flown. If you have never flown a twin – state it!
Do your homework, if the company you are applying too operates singles and C206 – state the hours on type if you have any. If they only operate twins, stating every single type you have flown just shows you have not done your homework!
If you have all ATPL subjects - state it. If you have 2 remaining - state it. I do not want to read every subject and result, just if you have all credits or not.
I am not interested in any way shape of form of an "Aviation Degree". All one of those tells me is that you have more money than sense!
I am not interested in references, I never call the ones you include as I can always find people who know you!
If you want to include marital status and age, go ahead, it shows you have nothing to hide. If you don't include it and you make it to interview and the position is out in the boondocks with single accommodation supplied, then it is up to you to accept or decline, you will get no special treatment to see your family and don't expect any!
Never send paper resumes, they get lost. Resumes emailed that have minimums get saved. Everything else goes in file 13. DON'T EXPECT A REPLY!
Don't include you photo; you have no idea if the girls in the office open all mail. If they do you will be scrutinised and remarks passed around!
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Okay, so the sum total of the advice in this thread is to always include a photo because you can tell a lot from a bloke in a photo but don't bother including a photo because only quals/certs/experience matter, always include DOB/marital status/birthplace but, for the love of God, DON'T give your DOB/marital status/birthplace because it illegal to ask/opens potential employer up to litigation and you won't get an interview anyway and always include a cover letter as that's what gets read first but make sure your CV is up to snuff because that's what gets read first.
Cool, got it.
EDIT: Not meaning to come off that there's not some great advice in this thread as it applies to specific employers and I know those like remoak and others' hearts are absolutely in the right place, especially as they're offering their opinions for free.
But, really, as with every other industry, luck/personal preference/biases are massive factors. Many seem to think if you find the right CV template online, "Woo hoo JOB!", like it's an engineering process which you can refine. There are several general principles which generally work, sure, but generally, you have to play the %'s to get a job. If you go up to one chick in a pub and say "Nice shoes, wanna ****?", your chances of success are infinitely worse than if you ask the same question of 30 females in a night. And, even better, it only has to work once......
Cool, got it.
EDIT: Not meaning to come off that there's not some great advice in this thread as it applies to specific employers and I know those like remoak and others' hearts are absolutely in the right place, especially as they're offering their opinions for free.
But, really, as with every other industry, luck/personal preference/biases are massive factors. Many seem to think if you find the right CV template online, "Woo hoo JOB!", like it's an engineering process which you can refine. There are several general principles which generally work, sure, but generally, you have to play the %'s to get a job. If you go up to one chick in a pub and say "Nice shoes, wanna ****?", your chances of success are infinitely worse than if you ask the same question of 30 females in a night. And, even better, it only has to work once......
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Wow I can't believe how far behind the world Australia is...
It has nothing to do with profiling at all. It is simply looking for cues... slovenly appearance, the afore-mentioned leaning over expensive sports cars, wearing of insignia that don't fit the candidate, etc. They all give little hints as to what you can expect from that person. However no recruiter would ever decide a candidate's suitability based on a photo; it simply gives some information on which later interview questions can be based.
Precisely. They are all part of the picture. Nobody hires pilots any more based solely on flying skill. We look for the whole person. Many airlines see their crews as front-line ambassadors for the company, which makes their appearance as critical as the cabin crew. In this context, they are little different to actors or other professionals whose appearance is an important factor.
All you are doing with a photo is having an early opportunity to do exactly what you do anyway in the first few seconds of an interview. To infer that requiring a photo implies discrimination is just ridiculous.
British Airways... Easyjet... Ryanair... flybe... the list goes on. The BA form even helpfully provides a box on the form for your photo. Many airlines, particularly Asian ones (Japan Airlines is a good example) have strict requirements around personal appearance and physical stature (ie fatties need not apply). There are still some airlines in the Middle East that frown upon pilots wearing glasses (in fact Cathay were like that until relatively recently).
I suppose what we are seeing is how out of step Australian HR practices are with the rest of the world. Whether you think that is a good thing is up to you. From a recruiter's perspective, it sounds very restrictive.
To suggest that you can, in any way, assess the suitability of a candidate from a head-and-shoulders photo on a resume seems quite far-fetched. I'd be interested in how this profiling is achieved...
You cannot judge someone's capabilities as a pilot based on a photograph. You might be able to judge their apparent professionalism, enthusiasm, and hygeine
All you are doing with a photo is having an early opportunity to do exactly what you do anyway in the first few seconds of an interview. To infer that requiring a photo implies discrimination is just ridiculous.
I don't know of any airline that asks for a photo other than a photo copy of your driver's license and passport.
I suppose what we are seeing is how out of step Australian HR practices are with the rest of the world. Whether you think that is a good thing is up to you. From a recruiter's perspective, it sounds very restrictive.
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Actually remoak, as one who is insisting upon photos, your input here could help with a question I've thought about for a while. I'm physically fit but I'm a big bloke because I lift weights several times a week, play sports, etc. My previous job required something approximating that of a power athlete which means fit enough to run all day but physically strong enough to, say, kick someone's door in during the course of serving a warrant. Since leaving, I've maintained my resistence training mainly because I'm used to it, my girlfriend digs big blokes, etc.
Basically, I present in photos like a bouncer but, for weight and balance purposes, would this present a problem for potential employers?
Basically, I present in photos like a bouncer but, for weight and balance purposes, would this present a problem for potential employers?
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I suppose it might if you were flying charters in a 152, but no company I worked for ever allowed consideration of physical size as a factor in the employment process (although a few larger airlines do). Our view was that, if the CAA gave you a medical, and you could physically fit in the aircraft, that was all we cared about.
Having said that our smallest aircraft was a 70-seater, so size and weight were not issues.
I'll bet it's illegal in Australia to discriminate on the basis of size or weight though...
Having said that our smallest aircraft was a 70-seater, so size and weight were not issues.
I'll bet it's illegal in Australia to discriminate on the basis of size or weight though...
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It is unless it's integral to the job that you be a certain size or weight.
F/As have a minimum height so they can open the lockers etc, you could probably specify a maximum weight for helicopter pilots because that can impact on the payload, but otherwise you'd want a good reason ready. As you say, if someone has a medical and fits in your aircraft you probably wouldn't want to use the 'you too big' line.
It's nothing to do with HR practices and everything to do with the Australian state and federal anti-discrimination legislation, which is much more restrictive than what you get in Europe, or even the UK. There are also clauses about indirect discrimination, where it wasn't intended but occurred anyway. Virgin got hit with this one by a couple of rejected F/A candidates, where the company was found to have discriminated (on age), but unintentionally.
F/As have a minimum height so they can open the lockers etc, you could probably specify a maximum weight for helicopter pilots because that can impact on the payload, but otherwise you'd want a good reason ready. As you say, if someone has a medical and fits in your aircraft you probably wouldn't want to use the 'you too big' line.
It's nothing to do with HR practices and everything to do with the Australian state and federal anti-discrimination legislation, which is much more restrictive than what you get in Europe, or even the UK. There are also clauses about indirect discrimination, where it wasn't intended but occurred anyway. Virgin got hit with this one by a couple of rejected F/A candidates, where the company was found to have discriminated (on age), but unintentionally.
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everything to do with the Australian state and federal anti-discrimination legislation, which is much more restrictive than what you get in Europe, or even the UK. There are also clauses about indirect discrimination, where it wasn't intended but occurred anyway.
My 5 cents worth.......
Perhaps employers could be a little more specific when they advertise a position. This would make it easier for potential applicants.
When I see an ad ............"pilot wanted, email xyz@gmail".... it tells me very little about the position, and hence I don't know what to include in my resume and/or covering letter. A few details on type, base and nature of the work would certainly help.
My other pet gripe........."must be rated and current on (insert type)".
Do employers not realise that in insisting on rated and current pilots they are encouraging someone to "do a runner" from the employer that provided that rating? If I was hiring someone I would prefer to
Some good info in this thread.
When I see an ad ............"pilot wanted, email xyz@gmail".... it tells me very little about the position, and hence I don't know what to include in my resume and/or covering letter. A few details on type, base and nature of the work would certainly help.
My other pet gripe........."must be rated and current on (insert type)".
Do employers not realise that in insisting on rated and current pilots they are encouraging someone to "do a runner" from the employer that provided that rating? If I was hiring someone I would prefer to
- train them in-house, to ensure standardisation
- hire for attitude, rather than solely on the basis of endorsements
Some good info in this thread.
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archangel7
Here's a format that has got me several jet jobs...
http://www.simavia.co.nz/cve.pdf
Sorry, the PDF turned out a bit crappy...
Here's a format that has got me several jet jobs...
http://www.simavia.co.nz/cve.pdf
Sorry, the PDF turned out a bit crappy...