Oxford Students
Join Date: Jun 2009
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I met a guy who went through GFS and I must say the first time I saw him fly I had never seen anything like it.
The methodical out-loud checks typical of a multi crew environment were apparent, the briefs, reciting figures off his head he knew to heart, flawless radio transmissions...but then..
A gun-ho thinker, no mechanical common sense on how to take care of the machine that is keeping you in the sky, no appreciation for the beauty of flight instead a reliance on the electronics that keep the plane in order for you and the list doesn't stop there.
I am in no way generalising all who come out of GFS/Oxford however if these are the habits that have been picked up along the way it wont take long to come unstuck. You might find yourself a gig but whether you last is another thing.
The methodical out-loud checks typical of a multi crew environment were apparent, the briefs, reciting figures off his head he knew to heart, flawless radio transmissions...but then..
A gun-ho thinker, no mechanical common sense on how to take care of the machine that is keeping you in the sky, no appreciation for the beauty of flight instead a reliance on the electronics that keep the plane in order for you and the list doesn't stop there.
I am in no way generalising all who come out of GFS/Oxford however if these are the habits that have been picked up along the way it wont take long to come unstuck. You might find yourself a gig but whether you last is another thing.
I agree with the point raised about "how does a company prepare you for airline operations".
Having now spent 18 months in a major airline flying 744 after the GA path I have noticed the following.
1) A 300 page Ops manual for an airline really at the end of the day is set out no differently than a respectable GA / regional airline. It has the same ole waffle and blah blah blah that comes with writing a legal document.
2) The airline looks after your duty times and manages your renewals and medical expiry dates. They tell you with enough notice to sort it out.
3) Recency is taken care of (to a point)
4) You have a fraction of the things you needed to consider and worry about than when your flying GA and regionals
So really, how do you teach people a person to prepare for the airlines when really its nowhere near as difficult as GA. The things I experienced in GA as well really have helped in alot of bigger picture things that Ive so far experienced in my limited time in the Airlines....and that includes gravel operations and steam driven instruments.
Having now spent 18 months in a major airline flying 744 after the GA path I have noticed the following.
1) A 300 page Ops manual for an airline really at the end of the day is set out no differently than a respectable GA / regional airline. It has the same ole waffle and blah blah blah that comes with writing a legal document.
2) The airline looks after your duty times and manages your renewals and medical expiry dates. They tell you with enough notice to sort it out.
3) Recency is taken care of (to a point)
4) You have a fraction of the things you needed to consider and worry about than when your flying GA and regionals
So really, how do you teach people a person to prepare for the airlines when really its nowhere near as difficult as GA. The things I experienced in GA as well really have helped in alot of bigger picture things that Ive so far experienced in my limited time in the Airlines....and that includes gravel operations and steam driven instruments.
Join Date: May 2008
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I cant speak for how Oxford and former GFS students are looked on in the GA personally. However I do know many ex GFS instructors and some are the most talented aviators I've ever met. Able to switch between aircraft types and models with ease.
One of the biggest hurdles you're going to come across is aircraft conformity. I know 99% of the current and ex GA guys here can confirm that within one company you may have up to 10 layouts within one A/C model let alone dealing with the difference between the A/C models.
Having flown aircraft with little or no conformity and in companies with several different models its not easy but not a problem to jump between twins/singles, turbines/piston or conventional/glass. I cant say that I wouldn't be able to do so if I'd been brought up on conformed aircraft of the same model but it certainly helped in the beginning.
One of the biggest hurdles you're going to come across is aircraft conformity. I know 99% of the current and ex GA guys here can confirm that within one company you may have up to 10 layouts within one A/C model let alone dealing with the difference between the A/C models.
Having flown aircraft with little or no conformity and in companies with several different models its not easy but not a problem to jump between twins/singles, turbines/piston or conventional/glass. I cant say that I wouldn't be able to do so if I'd been brought up on conformed aircraft of the same model but it certainly helped in the beginning.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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soseg: Your points are semi valid, but be honest - you don't really know, because you haven't flown anywhere else, you've just heard "on the airwaves", "from a mate" about how it goes on somewhere else.
I agree that it is for the most part down to the individual and their commitment and abilities, but there are a lot (and an increasing number) of sausages being churned out of Oxford who are not taught to think for themselves and are lacking in real GA experience. The gravel runway at YOLA is not real GA experience btw.
I agree that it is for the most part down to the individual and their commitment and abilities, but there are a lot (and an increasing number) of sausages being churned out of Oxford who are not taught to think for themselves and are lacking in real GA experience. The gravel runway at YOLA is not real GA experience btw.
I can assure you nkand learning to fly a G1000 172 in a flying school compared to Airline operations is like chalk and cheese.
The best way to prepare yourself for Airline operations is to go and get some experience. You will encounter bad weather, tech issues and unruly passengers which will develop your decision making skills as a future Airline pilot.
At the end of the day you fly the aircraft how your boss wants the aircraft flown and every company has different expectations and rules of thumb. It's all about being able to adapt your flying to take into account how you are being told to operate the aircraft.
I would suggest you are being given an unreal perspective of the industry which will only come as a rude shock when you finally learn what it really is.
Coming up through the GA ranks I thought it was a novelty to have a HSI and RMI instead of a DG and Fixed card ADF! A 430 was considered a luxury but a G1000??? Sheeeeeesh
The best way to prepare yourself for Airline operations is to go and get some experience. You will encounter bad weather, tech issues and unruly passengers which will develop your decision making skills as a future Airline pilot.
At the end of the day you fly the aircraft how your boss wants the aircraft flown and every company has different expectations and rules of thumb. It's all about being able to adapt your flying to take into account how you are being told to operate the aircraft.
I would suggest you are being given an unreal perspective of the industry which will only come as a rude shock when you finally learn what it really is.
Coming up through the GA ranks I thought it was a novelty to have a HSI and RMI instead of a DG and Fixed card ADF! A 430 was considered a luxury but a G1000??? Sheeeeeesh
Join Date: Aug 2009
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soseg. Stop and think. Everyone here is giving their opinion. But it sounds like everyone here has done GA in some form. To think you know better than them on what will place you in a good postion in the industry is naive and arrogant. People are trying to help you see out of the bubble that flying schools surround their students in, I wish I had been told these facts of life as it would have eased the shock and frustration of GA.
As for your statement about your experience into unsealed strips, I can't comment alot as I haven't seen them. But your a student, how many tight, dirt strips have you been on.
As for your statement about your experience into unsealed strips, I can't comment alot as I haven't seen them. But your a student, how many tight, dirt strips have you been on.
As someone who went to GFS for most of my training and to another smaller GA school for the rest of my training here's my 2cents.
I found GFS to be a good school overall and they are very SOP orientated. I did my training there back before they got the glass cockpits so I can't comment on those but the 172's we flew were latest models and had all the latest equipment.
As has been said the fees were/are very high and really, the only thing you're paying extra for as opposed to another school is the equipment you fly. The std of training was nothing amazing. They, like every other school still had a number of low experienced/airline wannabe instructors so to say the training was any better then another school is wrong. We also had to pay a $2000 administration fee as part of our course which at the time I didn't question but now look back at and shake my head at.
I then went to another school for further training and I started to regret paying all that money to GFS for the privilege of flying their new 172's around.
The training at the new school was just as good and the SOP's were just as good. The only difference now, was that the aircraft were considerably older, and of course the prices were literally half of what they were with GFS. I could have saved $30,000 if only I'd done all my training at this new smaller school.
I also found the new aircraft at GFS had a negative impact on flying actual industry aircraft. One example is one time, when I was flying an older model 172, the alternator light came on and I didn't have a clue as to what to do. Because nothing ever broke in the sparkling new GFS machines we were never taught how to deal with any problems such as these.
So while GFS was in no way a bad school, If I did my time again I would def. not go there as you can get the same product and better realistic industry aircraft experience from going to a smaller outfit and all for half the price!
I found GFS to be a good school overall and they are very SOP orientated. I did my training there back before they got the glass cockpits so I can't comment on those but the 172's we flew were latest models and had all the latest equipment.
As has been said the fees were/are very high and really, the only thing you're paying extra for as opposed to another school is the equipment you fly. The std of training was nothing amazing. They, like every other school still had a number of low experienced/airline wannabe instructors so to say the training was any better then another school is wrong. We also had to pay a $2000 administration fee as part of our course which at the time I didn't question but now look back at and shake my head at.
I then went to another school for further training and I started to regret paying all that money to GFS for the privilege of flying their new 172's around.
The training at the new school was just as good and the SOP's were just as good. The only difference now, was that the aircraft were considerably older, and of course the prices were literally half of what they were with GFS. I could have saved $30,000 if only I'd done all my training at this new smaller school.
I also found the new aircraft at GFS had a negative impact on flying actual industry aircraft. One example is one time, when I was flying an older model 172, the alternator light came on and I didn't have a clue as to what to do. Because nothing ever broke in the sparkling new GFS machines we were never taught how to deal with any problems such as these.
So while GFS was in no way a bad school, If I did my time again I would def. not go there as you can get the same product and better realistic industry aircraft experience from going to a smaller outfit and all for half the price!
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No worries soseg, have it your way mate.
The funniest thing about Oxford students is that they can go through life never having had to refuel a plane themselves...
Doesn't it just come on a Shell truck!?
Last time I flew at what was then GFS, a G1000 172 was $240 an hour solo, probably over 300 dual. So probably now $300 solo, $400 dual
The funniest thing about Oxford students is that they can go through life never having had to refuel a plane themselves...
Doesn't it just come on a Shell truck!?
Last time I flew at what was then GFS, a G1000 172 was $240 an hour solo, probably over 300 dual. So probably now $300 solo, $400 dual
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Soseg,
Come on reply some more, because its really entertaining to watch young guys with little experience get all wound up on pprune.
Oh and can you make your replies a little longer!
Come on reply some more, because its really entertaining to watch young guys with little experience get all wound up on pprune.
Oh and can you make your replies a little longer!
This is awesome. Thanks for the enlightenment soseg. Keep it up, very entertaining in a laugh out loud, did I once think like that sort of way.
GG you don't know sh1t. A 172 is sooooo like a jet. Just put a cardboard FMC in between the two front seats and I couldn't tell the difference
Fonzie, good balanced post.
GG you don't know sh1t. A 172 is sooooo like a jet. Just put a cardboard FMC in between the two front seats and I couldn't tell the difference
Fonzie, good balanced post.
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Ah yes, the "flyaway" of course, how could I forget. Such invaluable straight line experience that is. I guess that is useful for the airlines though.
Look forward to working with you one day soseg. You can shout out the SOPs while I hook up the CD player on the Audio AUX IN....
Look forward to working with you one day soseg. You can shout out the SOPs while I hook up the CD player on the Audio AUX IN....
A CD player, Flypy, you should be ashamed of yourself listening to music on a CD PLAYER WHILST FLYING!!!!! THAT IS AN UTTER DISGRACE, PILOTS LIKE YOU SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT AND SHOT, Cos an Ipod works much better. 
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Soseg,
thought id pm you but more pertinent to say it here.
Don't worry about these ********, they are all whingers who probably have gotten nowhere in their careers and are extremely jealous. I've been flying for 4 years and have come across many of the same people who post on this thread in real life and its people often who have a chip on their shoulder who feel the need to degrade organizations and demote people for flying at a reputable school.
Can give an example of some guy i met who was insistent on convincing me to do my flying at a school in port macquarie- no matter what i said, everywhere else taught IFR flying poorly and youd get nowhere if you didnt go to this place etc etc. Narrow minded opiniated people like this posting above.
What i can say is- whether those above like it or not- aviation is changing rapidly and MPL is coming to Australia whether you care or not. Looking at qf link traineeship of 07/08 which yielded quite a few of Oxford graduates and other programs no doubt to come in the future things have markedly changed. If I go to say Qantas in 2-3 yrs and they can see I have trained at the same organization they put their cadets through and their qf link trainees dont you think it would be ringing bells about the way a person was trained- considering thats how they wanted their cadets trained!
I can totally understand that GA experience is invaluable and from my perspective I can't comment on the GA scene- and hence I haven't!!! But to say the sort of thing said above about Oxford without having EVER been to the place, EVER trained here or observed ops is absurb and downright ridiculous.
I invite anyone who wishes to see the flying school to send me a PM and i will personally show you around and tell you what it is and is not- but one things for sure- the misconception of the school as posted above is pretty evident!
thought id pm you but more pertinent to say it here.
Don't worry about these ********, they are all whingers who probably have gotten nowhere in their careers and are extremely jealous. I've been flying for 4 years and have come across many of the same people who post on this thread in real life and its people often who have a chip on their shoulder who feel the need to degrade organizations and demote people for flying at a reputable school.
Can give an example of some guy i met who was insistent on convincing me to do my flying at a school in port macquarie- no matter what i said, everywhere else taught IFR flying poorly and youd get nowhere if you didnt go to this place etc etc. Narrow minded opiniated people like this posting above.
What i can say is- whether those above like it or not- aviation is changing rapidly and MPL is coming to Australia whether you care or not. Looking at qf link traineeship of 07/08 which yielded quite a few of Oxford graduates and other programs no doubt to come in the future things have markedly changed. If I go to say Qantas in 2-3 yrs and they can see I have trained at the same organization they put their cadets through and their qf link trainees dont you think it would be ringing bells about the way a person was trained- considering thats how they wanted their cadets trained!
I can totally understand that GA experience is invaluable and from my perspective I can't comment on the GA scene- and hence I haven't!!! But to say the sort of thing said above about Oxford without having EVER been to the place, EVER trained here or observed ops is absurb and downright ridiculous.
I invite anyone who wishes to see the flying school to send me a PM and i will personally show you around and tell you what it is and is not- but one things for sure- the misconception of the school as posted above is pretty evident!
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the Dr doesn't seem to come to Vic very much..
And right on time, nkand comes back. Mate, I flew at GFS/Oxford too, I could run the tour too.... "This is where you bend over, this where you wait with 30 other cadets for your flight, here are the stifling un airconditioned classrooms where you'll do your theory lessons"...
oops, maybe they have AC now.
I don't know what part of soseg's life we're supposed to be jealous of, but if its training at Oxford..... nah I'm not jealous of him. If he had a job, maybe I could find some green envy in my heart, somewhere.
And right on time, nkand comes back. Mate, I flew at GFS/Oxford too, I could run the tour too.... "This is where you bend over, this where you wait with 30 other cadets for your flight, here are the stifling un airconditioned classrooms where you'll do your theory lessons"...
oops, maybe they have AC now.
I don't know what part of soseg's life we're supposed to be jealous of, but if its training at Oxford..... nah I'm not jealous of him. If he had a job, maybe I could find some green envy in my heart, somewhere.
nkand, you're awesome, 4 years and only just getting your MECIR? I wish I could be near you to absorb some of your awesomeness. Good luck with your MPL. When you get it you can be a SO and get the ATIS and help out in first class when they're a bit busy...
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nkand, you're awesome, 4 years and only just getting your MECIR? I wish I could be near you to absorb some of your awesomeness. Good luck with your MPL. When you get it you can be a SO and get the ATIS and help out in first class when they're a bit busy...
go get a life ********