Do you have a Degree, and do you feel it helped you into your flying job?
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Do you have a Degree, and do you feel it helped you into your flying job?
Pretty self explanatory really,
- If you are presently in a flying job and hold a Degree of some sort, how strongly do you feel that your Degree contributed to your success in gaining this employment?
- If you are presently in a flying job and don't hold a Degree, how did you fare getting that job, and do you feel it would have made a difference if you did have one?
Please feel free to also post your opinions and experiences with regards to this.
Jazz
- If you are presently in a flying job and hold a Degree of some sort, how strongly do you feel that your Degree contributed to your success in gaining this employment?
- If you are presently in a flying job and don't hold a Degree, how did you fare getting that job, and do you feel it would have made a difference if you did have one?
Please feel free to also post your opinions and experiences with regards to this.
Jazz
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I have a degree in a non-aviation-related field, and I have a flying job. It didn't help me get this job, I kind of fell into it after finishing my CPL/MECIR training - staying utterly professional and keeping my nose clean got me this job. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if my current employer was unaware of my tertiary quals.
I am 101% certain that my degree helped me gain previous (non-flying) employment, and will help me again in the future - and this has nothing to do with what I actually studied. I know for a fact that many employers - and this may or may not include most airlines, I can't give an opinion on that - do like that tertiary qualification.
I don't see it helping much in GA, or the beginning stages of GA. Most light charters operators or similar I've spoken to really couldn't care less if you've got a 5-year double degree in Aviation-related studies - it has no bearing on your worth or quality as a charter pilot/instructor/whatever.
I am 101% certain that my degree helped me gain previous (non-flying) employment, and will help me again in the future - and this has nothing to do with what I actually studied. I know for a fact that many employers - and this may or may not include most airlines, I can't give an opinion on that - do like that tertiary qualification.
I don't see it helping much in GA, or the beginning stages of GA. Most light charters operators or similar I've spoken to really couldn't care less if you've got a 5-year double degree in Aviation-related studies - it has no bearing on your worth or quality as a charter pilot/instructor/whatever.
A degree may not help you attain or retain a flying job. HOWEVER it will give you options/ choice in life. Unfortunately with the demise of the two airline policy in Australia (good) many of the conditions of service and security of tenature no longer exist (bad).
With a degree (almost ANY degree) combined with industry experience in a regional airline or RPT jet operations, it will open up employment opportunities within the fringes of mainstream aviation eg CASA, ATSB, DOTARS, Airport management etc. So, when you get to the age and stage of wife, kids in high school etc and an airline gives you notice to move somewhere that you do not really wish to be.......or leave............
you may have an OPTION to say NO, I do not wish to move, I WILL leave as I have other options.
A large part of the reason why our terms and conditions are eroding is that MOST in aviation have NO CHOICE but to comply.
Study hard and get a degree, it will be worth gold.
With a degree (almost ANY degree) combined with industry experience in a regional airline or RPT jet operations, it will open up employment opportunities within the fringes of mainstream aviation eg CASA, ATSB, DOTARS, Airport management etc. So, when you get to the age and stage of wife, kids in high school etc and an airline gives you notice to move somewhere that you do not really wish to be.......or leave............
you may have an OPTION to say NO, I do not wish to move, I WILL leave as I have other options.
A large part of the reason why our terms and conditions are eroding is that MOST in aviation have NO CHOICE but to comply.
Study hard and get a degree, it will be worth gold.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
No degree.
Got a good flying job.
Previous life, beat uni grads to jobs because I had experience.
Got a good flying job.
Previous life, beat uni grads to jobs because I had experience.
Yes, Bachelor Aviation, Griffith Uni.
Did it help me get a job? Yes, from the connections. Ie classmate gave a recommendation to the boss, over other potentials. The knowledge gained in the degree is also invaluable, just not immediately.
j3
Did it help me get a job? Yes, from the connections. Ie classmate gave a recommendation to the boss, over other potentials. The knowledge gained in the degree is also invaluable, just not immediately.
j3
My Dad went to Grade Ten in school, he flew a 727.
I went to Grade 12, I flew a 747.
I reckon if I went to uni I would have been flying the Space Shuttle.
But to answer the question, no, I don't have a degree in anything and it's (apparently) made no difference to me getting a job or not.
I went to Grade 12, I flew a 747.
I reckon if I went to uni I would have been flying the Space Shuttle.
But to answer the question, no, I don't have a degree in anything and it's (apparently) made no difference to me getting a job or not.
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yes basic science degree worked in an unrelated field for 8 yrs. Always wanted to fly but didnt have the money, in the good old days meant i was too old anyway. Got a good job that paid well saved my money bought a house and paid for my flying.
Due to my experience in my first job i was able to get a gig with a survey company with low hours and also multiskill in the operation.
As a result i took a 2/3 paycut
anyway a few yrs later didnt kill myself and flying jets yaaay
Due to my experience in my first job i was able to get a gig with a survey company with low hours and also multiskill in the operation.
As a result i took a 2/3 paycut
anyway a few yrs later didnt kill myself and flying jets yaaay
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illusion, very well put, good advice for anyone starting out!
I've heard the same whinge from aviators on three continents: "If I had the chance to do it again, I'd get a degree and go into aviation as a hobby/afterthought/entrepreneur/second career" (delete as appropriate
).
It's because of the nature of the beast, a bit like advertising (stay with me here
): Young starry-eyed kids think it's the dog's b@llocks when it comes to jobs and oh so glamorous, and of course supply and demand then dictate that conditions would be atrocious for newbies, especially in a small industry like in Oz/NZ where there seems to be a never ending supply of budding aviators..
Once the newly minted drivers find their feet in this very specialised, but still trade-like job (as it doesn't usually come with a tertiary qualification), they have a mountain of debt that takes years to pay off, no alternative as the skills are too specific to be transferable to another industry, and until they have enough experience to be marketable (e.g. overseas), or indeed be 'worth' a decent salary, they're well and truly locked in.. add to that wife and kids and the recipe for chronic stress is complete
The solution? Easy: Get the guvmint in the aviation white paper to mandate extension of the CPL syllabus to include general business management, economics, how to run a small business 101, accounting, marketing, tourism studies 101 and some other stuff, then issue a tertiary qualification on the back of the CPL, and offer Fee Help or whatever other assistance programs exist, and Bob's your uncle.
To save the 'overseas student pilot exploitation industry', you could for example offer a stripped-down version without the actual degree, in order to accommodate budget and preserve international competitiveness.
Chance that that will ever happen? Infinitesimal methinks
Such a nice idea though 
Does it have the potential to revolutionise pilot training and maybe even aviation around the world? I bet! Anyway, off to take a cold shower now, the excitement will soon pass
I've heard the same whinge from aviators on three continents: "If I had the chance to do it again, I'd get a degree and go into aviation as a hobby/afterthought/entrepreneur/second career" (delete as appropriate
). It's because of the nature of the beast, a bit like advertising (stay with me here
): Young starry-eyed kids think it's the dog's b@llocks when it comes to jobs and oh so glamorous, and of course supply and demand then dictate that conditions would be atrocious for newbies, especially in a small industry like in Oz/NZ where there seems to be a never ending supply of budding aviators..Once the newly minted drivers find their feet in this very specialised, but still trade-like job (as it doesn't usually come with a tertiary qualification), they have a mountain of debt that takes years to pay off, no alternative as the skills are too specific to be transferable to another industry, and until they have enough experience to be marketable (e.g. overseas), or indeed be 'worth' a decent salary, they're well and truly locked in.. add to that wife and kids and the recipe for chronic stress is complete
The solution? Easy
: Get the guvmint in the aviation white paper to mandate extension of the CPL syllabus to include general business management, economics, how to run a small business 101, accounting, marketing, tourism studies 101 and some other stuff, then issue a tertiary qualification on the back of the CPL, and offer Fee Help or whatever other assistance programs exist, and Bob's your uncle. To save the 'overseas student pilot exploitation industry', you could for example offer a stripped-down version without the actual degree, in order to accommodate budget and preserve international competitiveness.
Chance that that will ever happen? Infinitesimal methinks
Such a nice idea though Does it have the potential to revolutionise pilot training and maybe even aviation around the world? I bet! Anyway, off to take a cold shower now, the excitement will soon pass
Moderator
My take -
(a) had a BE(Aero) with useful experience as an engineer. Degree was traded against experience. On my intake, I was the second oldest, as I recall, and the least experienced (flying hours) by far.
(b) a degree is of little direct use to an airline other than for the inference that it suggests the holder can study and pass exams. Depending on the ticket, they may tuck your name away for potential management jobs further down the career track.
(c) ideal way to do things, I suggest, is to get the matriculation, get the flying training, get into the flying job of choice as young as is feasible. THEN, look at doing some other qualification which you find interesting. Either it will give you some sideline work or it may provide some degree of job opportunity if you lose your job on a medical or a 1989 type of event.
I don't think it matters whether you do a trade or degree or whatever .. just keep in mind the fact that flying is a very specialist trade and, if you are out on a medical, in general, there is precious little the average pilot has to offer to employers on the basis of previous flying.
(a) had a BE(Aero) with useful experience as an engineer. Degree was traded against experience. On my intake, I was the second oldest, as I recall, and the least experienced (flying hours) by far.
(b) a degree is of little direct use to an airline other than for the inference that it suggests the holder can study and pass exams. Depending on the ticket, they may tuck your name away for potential management jobs further down the career track.
(c) ideal way to do things, I suggest, is to get the matriculation, get the flying training, get into the flying job of choice as young as is feasible. THEN, look at doing some other qualification which you find interesting. Either it will give you some sideline work or it may provide some degree of job opportunity if you lose your job on a medical or a 1989 type of event.
I don't think it matters whether you do a trade or degree or whatever .. just keep in mind the fact that flying is a very specialist trade and, if you are out on a medical, in general, there is precious little the average pilot has to offer to employers on the basis of previous flying.
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I have a degree in a business law area, currently flying some cool toys and it didnt help me get a job but i have the pleasure of knowig more than most people about stuff
A uni degree's best use is the chance to chase girls for 3 years in one small place
A uni degree's best use is the chance to chase girls for 3 years in one small place
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The degree (non aviation) got me the job to pay for the flying so the debt levels were manageable.
It may have also looked favourable to the current employer but I don't know for sure. In GA it certainly didn't seem to make much difference if any.
Hopefully I won't need it again to get a non flying job but it's nice to know it's there.
It may have also looked favourable to the current employer but I don't know for sure. In GA it certainly didn't seem to make much difference if any.
Hopefully I won't need it again to get a non flying job but it's nice to know it's there.
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degree=waste of time.
if you want to fly only, then definate waste of time.
if you want to fly and also get into flight ops management then learn to kiss ass (no degree for that), stab your fellow pilots in the back (no degree for that) and last but not least, have limited ability in general (no degree for that)
if you want to fly only, then definate waste of time.
if you want to fly and also get into flight ops management then learn to kiss ass (no degree for that), stab your fellow pilots in the back (no degree for that) and last but not least, have limited ability in general (no degree for that)
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Degree in Law. Helped me in aviation because without the law degree, i wouldnt have been able to work in a law firm. This job allowed me to save enough to complete all training in 2 years and come out debt free.
I have no doubt it helped when i eventually applied to QF, not because of the actual degree, but because it takes people from all walks of life and backgrounds to work in an airline.
As i have not stayed current with many law changes/updates, it doesnt really help now. The best part is though, with a legal background, you learn how to interpret legal documents. This is good because it provides many hours of laughter when listening to other peoples completely incorrect interpretations/applications/opinions when flying across the pond...
I have no doubt it helped when i eventually applied to QF, not because of the actual degree, but because it takes people from all walks of life and backgrounds to work in an airline.
As i have not stayed current with many law changes/updates, it doesnt really help now. The best part is though, with a legal background, you learn how to interpret legal documents. This is good because it provides many hours of laughter when listening to other peoples completely incorrect interpretations/applications/opinions when flying across the pond...
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Back onto topic
I finished my BSc 23 years ago majoring in Genetics, and Biochemistry.
I never worked in that field; instead I went into banking and found my way into IT around 2 years later. I got the IT job because I had a degree. The company wanted "proof" that I could do some advance study and apply analytical processes to my work. In their opinion, any degree proved this. My degree hasn't helped me get any of my avaition work.
I've never seen my degree as a "backup" and I woudn't recommend anyone to do a degree as a backup.
Firstly, you'd be spending money and around three years of your life doing something that is NOT your first career choice.
Second, a degree without related job experience will have a shelf-life, and some (like mine) were totally out of date after three years of completion. All it may be useful for is getting a look in the door (as was mine); which at three years and HECS is an expensive look in.
DIVOSH advice: ONLY DO A DEGREE IF YOU WANT TO!
Don't waste three years of your life and whatever HECS cash doing something that you don't really want to do (Trust me on this
)!
If you want to fly, FLY!
If you want to get into aviation management and need a degree to do it, FLY! (Do the aviation degree/MBA/etc part-time later on)
No australian airline currently requires a degree for flight crew, and while that remains, there is little point in getting one until later on in your career, IMHO.
Degrees are great for some careers, but not others.
Not sure of your IT background, Martin, but these two guys in your hypothetical wont be going for the same IT job unless the IT Geek did part-time tertiary/TAFE work while at Harvey Norman.
In 2009, no degree/qualification = no IT career.
(I wont pick on your flying examples Martin, but they're not much good either, IMHO).
As far as I've seen, in aviation the most important "qualifications"s are TT, closely followed by endorsement/time on type. A bit of a generalisation, but they would be the top two. Things like degrees come in as "desirable", if at all.
Cheers,
DIVOSH!
I never worked in that field; instead I went into banking and found my way into IT around 2 years later. I got the IT job because I had a degree. The company wanted "proof" that I could do some advance study and apply analytical processes to my work. In their opinion, any degree proved this. My degree hasn't helped me get any of my avaition work.
I've never seen my degree as a "backup" and I woudn't recommend anyone to do a degree as a backup.
Firstly, you'd be spending money and around three years of your life doing something that is NOT your first career choice.
Second, a degree without related job experience will have a shelf-life, and some (like mine) were totally out of date after three years of completion. All it may be useful for is getting a look in the door (as was mine); which at three years and HECS is an expensive look in.
DIVOSH advice: ONLY DO A DEGREE IF YOU WANT TO!
Don't waste three years of your life and whatever HECS cash doing something that you don't really want to do (Trust me on this
)! If you want to fly, FLY!
If you want to get into aviation management and need a degree to do it, FLY! (Do the aviation degree/MBA/etc part-time later on)
No australian airline currently requires a degree for flight crew, and while that remains, there is little point in getting one until later on in your career, IMHO.
Degrees are great for some careers, but not others.
Take IT for example. Whilst one guy is off getting a degree, the other started as a lowly IT geek in a computer shop working on computers or perhaps at Harvey Norman. 3-4 years later both these guys go for the same job.
In 2009, no degree/qualification = no IT career.
(I wont pick on your flying examples Martin, but they're not much good either, IMHO).
As far as I've seen, in aviation the most important "qualifications"s are TT, closely followed by endorsement/time on type. A bit of a generalisation, but they would be the top two. Things like degrees come in as "desirable", if at all.
Cheers,
DIVOSH!
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I'll jump in here because I am currently undertaking a Uni degree in Aviation.
Very interesting to read the various posts that people have made. One thing that I can immediately see in a difference between degree/no degree in Aviation is that the understanding and depth of knowledge is greater.
For instance if you go through the BAK/PPL book you will get how aerodynamics work etc. etc. but it never delves into the deeper study of aerodynamics. At Uni we have been doing such things as studying the lift equations, drag equations etc. which in my mind gives a greater understanding. One thing that I strongly believe in is that a Uni degree not only is just showing that you have studied something but it shows you that you have a deeper understanding of the fundamental concepts, and also that you have the ability to adapt to changes as they come.
Another thing with the Aviation degree is that we study half a year of Maths and a year and a half of Physics. This in my opinion is annoying but also helps people who many not have studied these subjects at High School, especially with many Airlines looking for these subjects.
Finally the second main reason why I personally am completing this degree, funding. Completing this degree at Uni allows me to simultanously have access to government funding (FEE-HELP) allowing me to get all the way to CPL/CIR. The government lends the money to me to do this however it requires me to be passing my University courses with good marks, another incentive to do well.
It may sound as if I am trying to sell the degree's but at the end of the day everybody has their personal opinion, I couldn't be happier doing what I am doing in my life right now
Edit: Oh and by the way Hunter, quality post. I'll be sure to look out for your back to stab at some stage
Very interesting to read the various posts that people have made. One thing that I can immediately see in a difference between degree/no degree in Aviation is that the understanding and depth of knowledge is greater.
For instance if you go through the BAK/PPL book you will get how aerodynamics work etc. etc. but it never delves into the deeper study of aerodynamics. At Uni we have been doing such things as studying the lift equations, drag equations etc. which in my mind gives a greater understanding. One thing that I strongly believe in is that a Uni degree not only is just showing that you have studied something but it shows you that you have a deeper understanding of the fundamental concepts, and also that you have the ability to adapt to changes as they come.
Another thing with the Aviation degree is that we study half a year of Maths and a year and a half of Physics. This in my opinion is annoying but also helps people who many not have studied these subjects at High School, especially with many Airlines looking for these subjects.
Finally the second main reason why I personally am completing this degree, funding. Completing this degree at Uni allows me to simultanously have access to government funding (FEE-HELP) allowing me to get all the way to CPL/CIR. The government lends the money to me to do this however it requires me to be passing my University courses with good marks, another incentive to do well.
It may sound as if I am trying to sell the degree's but at the end of the day everybody has their personal opinion, I couldn't be happier doing what I am doing in my life right now
Edit: Oh and by the way Hunter, quality post. I'll be sure to look out for your back to stab at some stage
360 deg's
...........No degree, left school at 17, form 5 (incomplete) Was always at the bottom end of the class in the public school system.
Worked on cars for a while, fueled planes swept floors & now fly in one of the most sought after jobs around..............need a degree? I don't think so! You just need to be determined, there's no degree/schooling in that trait!
Having said that it would pay to have another card up yr sleeve as aviation is now too fragile to rely on as a life job.
Wmk2
Worked on cars for a while, fueled planes swept floors & now fly in one of the most sought after jobs around..............need a degree? I don't think so! You just need to be determined, there's no degree/schooling in that trait!
Having said that it would pay to have another card up yr sleeve as aviation is now too fragile to rely on as a life job.
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 15th Jun 2009 at 10:50. Reason: no degree means constant spelling errors, oh well i can fly though!:-)
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darkrampage,
if it makes you feel better to know you have a degree then well done.
but let me tell you.............it's a complete waste of time.
most i fly with don't have them, and the ones that do hardly stand out. further, some of my mates have degrees and have missed out on airline jobs!
however, you do make a good point regarding delving into the depths of understanding lift equations and the like, that'll make for an exciting conversation across the pacific one night whilst you are amazing your fellow aviators..
edit: by the way rampage, make sure i'm not checking you whilst you a stabbing me in the back.
if it makes you feel better to know you have a degree then well done.
but let me tell you.............it's a complete waste of time.
most i fly with don't have them, and the ones that do hardly stand out. further, some of my mates have degrees and have missed out on airline jobs!
however, you do make a good point regarding delving into the depths of understanding lift equations and the like, that'll make for an exciting conversation across the pacific one night whilst you are amazing your fellow aviators..
edit: by the way rampage, make sure i'm not checking you whilst you a stabbing me in the back.