Merged: Pel Air vs RFDS for the Air Ambulance contract in Australia
ecovictim
To compare RFDS and NTAMS is not valid, to say the least. The reasons have been stated many times, in many threads.
And if I may, in general:
Many people seem to be posting here, talking about RFDS training standards, equipment age / condition etc. compared to the rest of Australian GA.
I think these posters are missing the point somewhat.
The guts of it is the disparity between providing a "charitable" - and very worthy, service to majority of Australia, remote and otherwise, and competing for commercial contracts with other companies, who feel the full effect of commercial pressures in every aspect of their operations, every day.
Personally, I believe that there IS something wrong with this picture - but that is in no way a comment about RFDS's standards or their line operations. Why do people have such trouble separating these two concepts??!!
Cheers,
CR.
To compare RFDS and NTAMS is not valid, to say the least. The reasons have been stated many times, in many threads.
And if I may, in general:
Many people seem to be posting here, talking about RFDS training standards, equipment age / condition etc. compared to the rest of Australian GA.
I think these posters are missing the point somewhat.
The guts of it is the disparity between providing a "charitable" - and very worthy, service to majority of Australia, remote and otherwise, and competing for commercial contracts with other companies, who feel the full effect of commercial pressures in every aspect of their operations, every day.
Personally, I believe that there IS something wrong with this picture - but that is in no way a comment about RFDS's standards or their line operations. Why do people have such trouble separating these two concepts??!!
Cheers,
CR.
Thanks "DD" we are but a few 
I'm not going to weigh in here too much about who's got the best training RFDS or anyone else but it's not just about training as such it's about checking thereafter where I think standards can slip. You can teach a monkey to fly a plane the way you want them too. Christ you don't need too much in the way of a formal education to do that even all the way up to an Airbus! It's when after some time out there in the real world where they really learn that the checking is so varied & at times just used to 'tick' the boxes. A pilots ability is only as good as the guy before him,meaning the instructor.
I think it's pretty well accepted that the RFDS have excellent C&T now especially with a B200 Sim available & the resources to train/check to a very high standard so that's where the main difference is compared to GA in general, what tools/money/ they have to do the job, there in lies the problem.
At the end of the day whom do you want to fly yr loved ones around when urgently needed? The RFDS whom do only that & for the longest time with the best resources or some operator whom has barely enough resources to do the task? No offense to those operators out there I understand it's not a level playing field to some degree I don't make the rules I just fly/live by them.
Wmk2
I'm not going to weigh in here too much about who's got the best training RFDS or anyone else but it's not just about training as such it's about checking thereafter where I think standards can slip. You can teach a monkey to fly a plane the way you want them too. Christ you don't need too much in the way of a formal education to do that even all the way up to an Airbus! It's when after some time out there in the real world where they really learn that the checking is so varied & at times just used to 'tick' the boxes. A pilots ability is only as good as the guy before him,meaning the instructor.
I think it's pretty well accepted that the RFDS have excellent C&T now especially with a B200 Sim available & the resources to train/check to a very high standard so that's where the main difference is compared to GA in general, what tools/money/ they have to do the job, there in lies the problem.
At the end of the day whom do you want to fly yr loved ones around when urgently needed? The RFDS whom do only that & for the longest time with the best resources or some operator whom has barely enough resources to do the task? No offense to those operators out there I understand it's not a level playing field to some degree I don't make the rules I just fly/live by them.
Wmk2
If government departments can bid for contracts that are also open to commercial operations (outside of aviation), then why can't RFDS compete against commercial aviation operators to win contracts?
morno
morno
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eocvictim. Point received but still not the point.
The Govt is the evil force in all this, time and time it has been said.
Money becomes the overriding force where it should take a back seat to safety and task required hardware and training.
I have worked for both commercial and charity ops. Charity ops SEEM to get more of the pie machinery wise.
In my view it is again the Govt who are playing cost into a factor, add this and a wanton attitude to change the operator to justify a Govt stuff up and you get what is happening now, both RFDS and Pearl have been diddled.
My vote in the upcoming election will show my stance......pointless in the scheme of things that it is
The Govt is the evil force in all this, time and time it has been said.
Money becomes the overriding force where it should take a back seat to safety and task required hardware and training.
I have worked for both commercial and charity ops. Charity ops SEEM to get more of the pie machinery wise.
In my view it is again the Govt who are playing cost into a factor, add this and a wanton attitude to change the operator to justify a Govt stuff up and you get what is happening now, both RFDS and Pearl have been diddled.
My vote in the upcoming election will show my stance......pointless in the scheme of things that it is
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This is about providing aviation services to the Victorian Health Department, not charitable medical care to the rural people of Australia.
Sorry for coming aross a little negative but something has been lost in the the whole process. The Victorian Ambulane Service has lost the plot and it aint limited to the air wing side of things. Victoria as a state of Australia, receives part funding from the federal government to service their health care needs. The RFDS as a non-profit organisation that dedicates its entire focus too areomed is the best in the business in this region. (ie Australia!!!!!) They service Victorians and every other Australian. The RFDS of course has a commercial advantage to other organisations. (much too the "un-named competing companies" annoyance) This is too the advantage of every Australian with the service's they receive in my belief.
Yes at the end of the day Pelair will deliver the service requested. But I suspect a little innsular arrogance has clouded the decision making progress here at AAV. (which they have every right to do btw
)
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The point is that governments should be paying what is required to justify the purchase of the necessary equipment and the necessary training so that whowever gets the contract can do it properly.
Obviously they do not.
Obviously they do not.
The point is that governments should be paying what is required to justify the purchase of the necessary equipment and the necessary training so that whowever gets the contract can do it properly.
Obviously they do not.
Obviously they do not.
And obviously they do if RFDS is making enough to put back whatever they make from these contracts, into their traditional work.
Even if RFDS does benefit from donations from the Australian public Bushy, what's wrong with them putting it back into the community in the form of new aircraft, new medical equipment etc., that the Australian public can benefit from. I don't think we'll see Pel-Air doing that outside of what they're required to do in Victoria.
morno
Further to what 'morno' has added here the Vic contract is worth something like $70Mill of which the contractor (Pelair in this case) have to supply 4 x A/C at say $8Mill @ & with the rest of that loot run the contract. Obviously that's a very simply breakdown of it but in a nut shell if the contractor can do it for less then the 'profit' goes to where they see fit. Commercially it's into the pockets of the owners/share holders etc which is fine that's how the world turns commercially but with the RFDS as 'morno' states it goes back into helping the Aussie community. There in lies the big difference we have here & we at the RFDS where (not anymore as it's a done deal now) scratching our heads thinking peoples lives from a Govt's perspective boils down to money....how sad, Still like I have said elsewhere here I do wish PelAir all the best hopefully some of that RFDS experience will carry over into the new operation keeping some level of continuity. Life will go on in the RFDS but it won't go on for all.
Wmk2
, Still like I have said elsewhere here I do wish PelAir all the best hopefully some of that RFDS experience will carry over into the new operation keeping some level of continuity. Life will go on in the RFDS but it won't go on for all. Wmk2
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Don't forget if you go to the West there is a lot of things the Government doesn't pay for. Take accidents pretty much anywhere outside of metropolitan Perth for example. It will be a VOLUNTEER Ambulance officer who will turn up to cut you out of your vehicle rollover or pick you up at home after your heart attack. Volunteers, and yet they provide the primary response care to patients. Unthinkable in some other places.
Bushy, to a certain extent I agree, if the Government paid for EVERYTHING, there would be no need for RFDS and the likes to take donations. But the fact is there is not enough money going around and I rather like the thought of RFDS putting all the money where it is needed rather than lining someone/s pockets as would be the case with a commercial operator, who doesn't go into business to break even.
Bushy, to a certain extent I agree, if the Government paid for EVERYTHING, there would be no need for RFDS and the likes to take donations. But the fact is there is not enough money going around and I rather like the thought of RFDS putting all the money where it is needed rather than lining someone/s pockets as would be the case with a commercial operator, who doesn't go into business to break even.
Not that hard to find out........check their web site. flyingdoctor.net.au
Apart from the listed stuff, they also provide
I have no problem donating to RFDS (and to the Fred Hollows Foundation and the Salvos either...... maybe they should compete against commercial operators for the services they provide to the Governemnt too....
)
Apart from the listed stuff, they also provide
- a national HF radio net, on which anyone across the country can access help or advice.
- a 24/7 GP telephone service - try ringing your own GP for free medical advice at 2AM and see how you get on
- Medical Emergency Chest service, where localities / stations are provided with pharmacology and equipment to use in conjunction with the telephone / HF consultation, for medical emergencies and accidents
Where Your Money Goes
The RFDS is a not for profit, charitable organisation that relies on funding from private donations, philanthropic grants, private trusts, events and community fundraising to provide more than $20 million a year to ensure our life-saving services are maintained.
Your donation will be used in several ways to help the thousands of people who live, work and travel in remote, rural and regional Australia.
Your donation funds essential health services:
Your donation purchases vital but expensive equipment including:
Our aircraft are among the safest in the world and fly more than 7 million kilometres in their lifetime! But after 20 years of hard work, they need to be replaced. Our fleet include aircraft used in air ambulance services.
* All donations made to the Australian Council of the RFDS are equally distributed between the RFDS operational sections around Australia. No donated funds are retained by the Council itself.
The RFDS is a not for profit, charitable organisation that relies on funding from private donations, philanthropic grants, private trusts, events and community fundraising to provide more than $20 million a year to ensure our life-saving services are maintained.
Your donation will be used in several ways to help the thousands of people who live, work and travel in remote, rural and regional Australia.
Your donation funds essential health services:
- Preventative Health Programs for people living on remote stations
- Healthy eating and increased exercise programs in remote communities
- Cultural activities which benefit health
- Better access to specialist health professionals for extremely remote locations
- Improved access to health information and resources for patients and health professionals
- The delivery of culturally appropriate health services
Your donation purchases vital but expensive equipment including:
- Foetal heart monitors
- Ventilators
- Defibrillators to re-start a failed heart
Our aircraft are among the safest in the world and fly more than 7 million kilometres in their lifetime! But after 20 years of hard work, they need to be replaced. Our fleet include aircraft used in air ambulance services.
* All donations made to the Australian Council of the RFDS are equally distributed between the RFDS operational sections around Australia. No donated funds are retained by the Council itself.
I have no problem donating to RFDS (and to the Fred Hollows Foundation and the Salvos either...... maybe they should compete against commercial operators for the services they provide to the Governemnt too....
)
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Bushy
Basically all the traditional RFDS operations are conducted on a not for profit basis. Sure money is raised by various means to provide that service but there is no money left for profit, any excess cash is put towards the purchase of new equipment which is used to provide better or additional services.
They are not paid to do it. For instance a government department might fund a specific program, when the money runs out the program stops. The only people making money out of the RFDS are their suppliers and employees. Thats a charity. The reason they bid for contracts is to raise more money to help pay for the traditional ops. Boring as and totally un Pelair but thats it.
The reason they lose contracts is because they cant afford to lose money into any activity that is not part of the traditional operations, the board members just would not cop it. It must be clearly beneficial to the organisation and be in no way a liability because its not what they're about.
SN
Basically all the traditional RFDS operations are conducted on a not for profit basis. Sure money is raised by various means to provide that service but there is no money left for profit, any excess cash is put towards the purchase of new equipment which is used to provide better or additional services.
They are not paid to do it. For instance a government department might fund a specific program, when the money runs out the program stops. The only people making money out of the RFDS are their suppliers and employees. Thats a charity. The reason they bid for contracts is to raise more money to help pay for the traditional ops. Boring as and totally un Pelair but thats it.
The reason they lose contracts is because they cant afford to lose money into any activity that is not part of the traditional operations, the board members just would not cop it. It must be clearly beneficial to the organisation and be in no way a liability because its not what they're about.
SN
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OK let me put it another way. the RFDS does not exist to make money, it exists to provide aeromedical services to those who need it wherever they may be. It is owned by those who fund it and nobody gets a dividend, no different to the Red Cross and nothing like Pelair! They are actually constantly looking to improve the services they provide on a needs basis.
Unfortunately they live in a commercial world where everything is expensive. Of course the various governments provide levels of funding for the various programs, job positions, aircraft replacement etc. This is because there is a need, if they didn't provide the funding they would have to put the medical services on the ground themselves, and we all know how good they are at that! When the RFDS lose a contract the governments have to cough up more coin, its that simple because the service must go on.
SN
Unfortunately they live in a commercial world where everything is expensive. Of course the various governments provide levels of funding for the various programs, job positions, aircraft replacement etc. This is because there is a need, if they didn't provide the funding they would have to put the medical services on the ground themselves, and we all know how good they are at that! When the RFDS lose a contract the governments have to cough up more coin, its that simple because the service must go on.
SN
The community is happy to pay for top quality medical support by the RFDS. Funds invested in a fleet of NEW B200's [Proline21]. I think that the point that is missed here is that the same number of pilots/maintainers/support staff probably exist no matter who the actual operator is. "Ownership" of the operation is only one ingredient.
A career at RFDS is much more stable than some of the other 'pretenders' out there.
A career at RFDS is much more stable than some of the other 'pretenders' out there.
Seasonally Adjusted
A career at RFDS is much more stable than some of the other 'pretenders' out there.
Why the requirement for the ATPL licence, when the aircraft is certified below 5700kgs?
I know a number of RFDS guys that have flown with the RFDS over the years with only a CPL Licence.
I know a number of RFDS guys that have flown with the RFDS over the years with only a CPL Licence.