Casa Drug screening
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Zapp, where I think it has the potential to really strike fear into Ops rooms around the country, is where several aircraft crews from the one company are targeted for screening, and several individual crews initiallty test positive. Think of the reserve coverage needed!
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Yep, agreed. It'd be interesting to test the legal waters for recovery of lost revenue through consumption of perfectly legal (and more to the point, acceptable in aviation) medication or substances.
And think of the tarnished company name when words gets around that "those two charters didn't go ahead yesterday cause 3 out of the 4 crew tested positive for banned substances". Just like a rape charge - the allegation is often as bad as the conviction. 3 out of 4 is an extreme example - but quite possible.
And think of the tarnished company name when words gets around that "those two charters didn't go ahead yesterday cause 3 out of the 4 crew tested positive for banned substances". Just like a rape charge - the allegation is often as bad as the conviction. 3 out of 4 is an extreme example - but quite possible.
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CASA will be tragetting certain areas of operation (they have said, according to our DAMP REP) and this may mean that some persons will be REGULARLY randomly tested and perhaps this will be several times every year. This is definately a form of 'profiling' and not exactly random.
They have also stated that they intend to conduct 6000 tests a year with these tests being conducted by afficial CASA persons, but that there will be NO QUOTAS.....Run that by me again, that IS a quota I would say.
So if you are on a preferred testing, profiled list and your regional tester is getting to the end of his test cycle returns....watch out..random testing may not be so random.
Zap, A single mouth swab will be taken and tested to EVIDENTIARY standards, so don't tell me they do not intend to exercise the capacity to prosecute.
I am already subject to ramdom AOD testing and have been for several years and I know that this whole DAMP thing could (and should) be done in a fair, reasonable, prudent and discretionary manner using common sense and good judgement, I just find it hard to believe that that is in fact how it will turn out. I will be happy to be proven wrong.
HD
They have also stated that they intend to conduct 6000 tests a year with these tests being conducted by afficial CASA persons, but that there will be NO QUOTAS.....Run that by me again, that IS a quota I would say.
So if you are on a preferred testing, profiled list and your regional tester is getting to the end of his test cycle returns....watch out..random testing may not be so random.
Zap, A single mouth swab will be taken and tested to EVIDENTIARY standards, so don't tell me they do not intend to exercise the capacity to prosecute.
I am already subject to ramdom AOD testing and have been for several years and I know that this whole DAMP thing could (and should) be done in a fair, reasonable, prudent and discretionary manner using common sense and good judgement, I just find it hard to believe that that is in fact how it will turn out. I will be happy to be proven wrong.
HD
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Originally Posted by HarleyD
Zap, A single mouth swab will be taken and tested to EVIDENTIARY standards, so don't tell me they do not intend to exercise the capacity to prosecute.
I completely concede, however, that this is little consolation when you're pulled offline for any further testing to be completed.
Our company (maintenance) has recently been drug and booze tested, that is all of us, and it was not a drama. Only took a short time and all tests were clear, and that was the end of it. No problem!
Last edited by Arnold E; 3rd Apr 2009 at 13:31. Reason: Still cant spell and dont want spell police on my back
Zapp, false positives cause me to be stood down WITHOUT PAY.
That pisses me off.
I don't know the details, but you say that you've dealt with this in other industries, and describe your exposure to it as fair and reasonable, yes? Sadly you can NEVER expect either of those adjectives to apply, when talking about CASA and their actions
(my favourite emoticon for CASA)
HarleyD sums it up, and does it quite well, back about 12 posts ago. And CASA do it themselves with that idiot calender crap (again, and again, and again, and...)
Sod off CASA - idiots Go and rewrite some documents or something 
Love your work...
CR.
That pisses me off.
I don't know the details, but you say that you've dealt with this in other industries, and describe your exposure to it as fair and reasonable, yes? Sadly you can NEVER expect either of those adjectives to apply, when talking about CASA and their actions
(my favourite emoticon for CASA)HarleyD sums it up, and does it quite well, back about 12 posts ago. And CASA do it themselves with that idiot calender crap (again, and again, and again, and...)
Sod off CASA - idiots
Go and rewrite some documents or something Love your work...CR.
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said it before.. say it again..
If I am in uniform heading to the aircraft then bring it on.. no excuses..
If however ...
I get home after 12 hours duty.. cant legally fly anyway... not to mention that the A/C has been taken by the next crew and is now 200 miles away..
no other company (or other) aircraft on the tarmac..
I have 2 beers at the local and duck back to get the mail, get tested POSITIVE.. not false.. just guilty..
Under the pile of current CASA regs I can not legally be in command of an aircraft anyway..
will I get off ..?? I doubt it .. is this enhancing safety.. I doubt it..
the next guy that gets booked DUI for walking down Bourke Street please let us know how the defense goes... its about the same...
am I allowed to have a drink in my own home.. ??
I could be doing ammendments to the ops manual at .05 after all...!!
If I am in uniform heading to the aircraft then bring it on.. no excuses..
If however ...
I get home after 12 hours duty.. cant legally fly anyway... not to mention that the A/C has been taken by the next crew and is now 200 miles away..
no other company (or other) aircraft on the tarmac..
I have 2 beers at the local and duck back to get the mail, get tested POSITIVE.. not false.. just guilty..
Under the pile of current CASA regs I can not legally be in command of an aircraft anyway..
will I get off ..?? I doubt it .. is this enhancing safety.. I doubt it..
the next guy that gets booked DUI for walking down Bourke Street please let us know how the defense goes... its about the same...
am I allowed to have a drink in my own home.. ??
I could be doing ammendments to the ops manual at .05 after all...!!
xxgoldxx
I've said it before.. say it again..
Look at my post 13 on page 1 of this thread.
XXgoldxx, You are on a flight for your organisation on the other side of the country.
You have been prescribed antibiotics by a doc and cleared to fly by a DAME. Those antibiotics are known to cause a false positive for cocaine.
You have informed your DAMP contact that you are taking the medication.
Do you accept the flight? Can your company (or you) afford to have you stood down immediately as you are preparing to fly on the other side of the country with VIP pax due at the aircraft in 30 mins?
You will be stood down for a couple of days at best, whilst the testers ring the CASA doc, who rings you and you state your case. The CASA doc, then rings your doc to find out that you have been prescribed the medication, then rings you back to say that you can fly.
This will not happen in 20 minutes!
The first CASA seminar I went to on this, I quizzed the CASA doc on this process. He conceded that the process could take UP TO 2 WEEKS.
Can you or your company afford this xxgoldxx?
The sensible solution is that your company damp contact is able to be contacted by the drug tester after your random test. The test is correlated with your declaration and you're good to go.
I've said it before.. say it again..
If I am in uniform heading to the aircraft then bring it on.. no excuses..
XXgoldxx, You are on a flight for your organisation on the other side of the country.
You have been prescribed antibiotics by a doc and cleared to fly by a DAME. Those antibiotics are known to cause a false positive for cocaine.
You have informed your DAMP contact that you are taking the medication.
Do you accept the flight? Can your company (or you) afford to have you stood down immediately as you are preparing to fly on the other side of the country with VIP pax due at the aircraft in 30 mins?
You will be stood down for a couple of days at best, whilst the testers ring the CASA doc, who rings you and you state your case. The CASA doc, then rings your doc to find out that you have been prescribed the medication, then rings you back to say that you can fly.
This will not happen in 20 minutes!
The first CASA seminar I went to on this, I quizzed the CASA doc on this process. He conceded that the process could take UP TO 2 WEEKS.
Can you or your company afford this xxgoldxx?
The sensible solution is that your company damp contact is able to be contacted by the drug tester after your random test. The test is correlated with your declaration and you're good to go.
Bottums Up
Stallie,
I'm stunned at your naivety.
Fancy trying to suggest a common sense approach with a bureaucracy!
I'm stunned at your naivety.
Fancy trying to suggest a common sense approach with a bureaucracy!
Originally Posted by compressor stall
The sensible solution is that your company damp contact is able to be contacted by the drug tester after your random test. The test is correlated with your declaration and you're good to go.
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This is idoicy
Alcohol testing, great, bring it on. Alcohol degrades performance and should be 0.0, not 0.2.
Drug testing, wow, this is crazy. I can go to the chemist, I can purchase a codral cold and flu tablet. I WILL return a positive reading. I will then be stood down from my duties as captain. It cannot be explained away as far as telling the bad man that you just took a flu-tab. You WILL be stood down from duty for AT LEAST 24 hours while the lab confirms the result.
Quandry: THE DRUG I TESTED POSITIVE FOR, INCREASED THE SAFETY OF THE OPERATION, BY PROVIDING SYMPTOMATIC RELIEF... IT IS A LEGAL OVER THE COUNTER DRUG.
This is an example of the inadequacy of CASA testing. Because they cant test for individual illicit substances, they group the entire lot.
Situation: Foreign crew overnight in aust, one guy takes a codral flu-tab. Screened next day and returns positive swab. Crew member stood down for at least 24 hours. The aircraft then required to remain until crew member declared, "not a drug user". Not all foreign operators have standby crews in Aust. When queried on the ramifications CASA said they would accept NO responsibility for any financial losses incurred by the company. Even though the substance was legal and not present in harmful level.
The CASA man then explained they take the same hard line approach as the police. If on a roadside alcohol and drug test you return a positive reading your licence is removed--instantly, total and complete rubbish. Has anyone lost their driver's licence for taking a flu-tab... I dont think so!
Get real CASA, you have really made total asses of yourselves, once again due to a total lack of understanding of the industry! Somebody sack these idiots!!!
Drug testing, wow, this is crazy. I can go to the chemist, I can purchase a codral cold and flu tablet. I WILL return a positive reading. I will then be stood down from my duties as captain. It cannot be explained away as far as telling the bad man that you just took a flu-tab. You WILL be stood down from duty for AT LEAST 24 hours while the lab confirms the result.
Quandry: THE DRUG I TESTED POSITIVE FOR, INCREASED THE SAFETY OF THE OPERATION, BY PROVIDING SYMPTOMATIC RELIEF... IT IS A LEGAL OVER THE COUNTER DRUG.
This is an example of the inadequacy of CASA testing. Because they cant test for individual illicit substances, they group the entire lot.
Situation: Foreign crew overnight in aust, one guy takes a codral flu-tab. Screened next day and returns positive swab. Crew member stood down for at least 24 hours. The aircraft then required to remain until crew member declared, "not a drug user". Not all foreign operators have standby crews in Aust. When queried on the ramifications CASA said they would accept NO responsibility for any financial losses incurred by the company. Even though the substance was legal and not present in harmful level.
The CASA man then explained they take the same hard line approach as the police. If on a roadside alcohol and drug test you return a positive reading your licence is removed--instantly, total and complete rubbish. Has anyone lost their driver's licence for taking a flu-tab... I dont think so!
Get real CASA, you have really made total asses of yourselves, once again due to a total lack of understanding of the industry! Somebody sack these idiots!!!
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Ithinkso,
I agree with your sentiments about 0.0 alcohol, but when I asked about it a few years ago (in a different context) I was told that the tests can read upto 0.02 even if you have never consumed alcohol in your life, just through the respiration process, which is why 0.02 is chosen... it is effectively 0.0.
With the drug tests, I guess we'll have to wait and see how it all plays out.
I'm sure if the airlines keep getting screwed over with crew not being able to operate due to false positives the system will change quite quickly.
I agree with your sentiments about 0.0 alcohol, but when I asked about it a few years ago (in a different context) I was told that the tests can read upto 0.02 even if you have never consumed alcohol in your life, just through the respiration process, which is why 0.02 is chosen... it is effectively 0.0.
With the drug tests, I guess we'll have to wait and see how it all plays out.
I'm sure if the airlines keep getting screwed over with crew not being able to operate due to false positives the system will change quite quickly.
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"Alcohol testing, great, bring it on. Alcohol degrades performance and should be 0.0, not 0.2."
i know you missed a zero but if the limit was .2 none of us would be able to preform our jobs because we would probably have trouble standing
i know you missed a zero but if the limit was .2 none of us would be able to preform our jobs because we would probably have trouble standing
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The organisation I work for has included ALL employees in their DAMP policy not just those working Airside in SSAA's. Wonder how drug and Alcohol testing improves safety of the accountants, reception staff etc.
Wonder if it is legal?
Wonder if it is legal?
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ithnkso
Your example doesn't work since foreign AOC holder employees are not covered by DAMP.
whiskey.
The problem with exempting employee categories is that once they are exempt they are restricted in where they can go due to the definition of SSAA including the bracketed statement of "by their presence". I take that to mean that if you are in a SSAA for any purpose ie letting someone know that there is a phone call, that they are deemed to be testable.
Wunwing
Your example doesn't work since foreign AOC holder employees are not covered by DAMP.
whiskey.
The problem with exempting employee categories is that once they are exempt they are restricted in where they can go due to the definition of SSAA including the bracketed statement of "by their presence". I take that to mean that if you are in a SSAA for any purpose ie letting someone know that there is a phone call, that they are deemed to be testable.
Wunwing
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Bring On Winter
Well, bring on winter.
Here is a mission for anyone.
Picture a good old winter in in Canberra or Melbourne. Go visit your local CASA office, and count the number of people you see walking around with a head cold. You can be certain that a good half of them will be on something (Codral etc).
Report it!
The number of positive test results with automatic stand downs will be enough to shut CASA down for at least how ever long it will take to prove all those test results are standard over the counter mediation?
Good times!
Here is a mission for anyone.
Picture a good old winter in in Canberra or Melbourne. Go visit your local CASA office, and count the number of people you see walking around with a head cold. You can be certain that a good half of them will be on something (Codral etc).
Report it!
The number of positive test results with automatic stand downs will be enough to shut CASA down for at least how ever long it will take to prove all those test results are standard over the counter mediation?
Good times!
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well the fine folks from our regulator will be in their offices.They must be cos they have not been out there finding LAME's with dodgy quals.
no doubt you have now read about the wonderful calendar warning and educationg us about the new testing regime and that the 2010 calendar comes complete with 11 months and other errors, ie no March 2010, 2 thursdays in a row in another place...Its nice bit of kit.
The fact testing can produce a positive for a legal drug that wont necessarily effect safety is a worry.Nobody wants anyone driving or fixing A/C half stung on anything but I can see it may cause problems.
no doubt you have now read about the wonderful calendar warning and educationg us about the new testing regime and that the 2010 calendar comes complete with 11 months and other errors, ie no March 2010, 2 thursdays in a row in another place...Its nice bit of kit.
The fact testing can produce a positive for a legal drug that wont necessarily effect safety is a worry.Nobody wants anyone driving or fixing A/C half stung on anything but I can see it may cause problems.
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If you have a head ache the night before a flight and take a panadiene to dull the pain and rock up to work the next morning and get tested I think you could find yourself in trouble.
Stood down at minus 60 minutes to push back? I don't know about your company but mine doesn't happen to have a couple of pilots just hanging around just in case.
So basically you are going to be the reason for a MAJOR delay. There is no doubt the rumourmill will be hard at work and before you know it "Mr. Hat's a junkie."
I don't have any reason to be concerned as I don't use illegal drugs or drink to excess. But I am concerned that when I'm feeling unwell I'm now not able to take an over the counter medication the night before.
Anyone that is in the process of convincing themselves that its going to be all okay may want to have a hard think about it. My question is - what happens to your medical? Could you be setting yourself up for increased surveillance?
Stood down at minus 60 minutes to push back? I don't know about your company but mine doesn't happen to have a couple of pilots just hanging around just in case.
So basically you are going to be the reason for a MAJOR delay. There is no doubt the rumourmill will be hard at work and before you know it "Mr. Hat's a junkie."
I don't have any reason to be concerned as I don't use illegal drugs or drink to excess. But I am concerned that when I'm feeling unwell I'm now not able to take an over the counter medication the night before.
Anyone that is in the process of convincing themselves that its going to be all okay may want to have a hard think about it. My question is - what happens to your medical? Could you be setting yourself up for increased surveillance?
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Here's a hint. DON'T TAKE PANADENE.... Take a panadol or an Act 3 or something else that will do the job. That way you won't get caught! Pretty simple really. If you HAVE to take something to fly, take the list of prohibited drugs to your pharmacist and ask for something that doesn't have the prohibited stuff in it. You know that the Pharmacist has a big book with everything that is in the concoction that they are about to give you, so ask them to check it.
Why is this all so difficult?
Get a grip people. Some of you need to open a can of "Harden the blank up!
TBT
Why is this all so difficult?
Get a grip people. Some of you need to open a can of "Harden the blank up!
TBT
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Time bomb, you are missing the point. CASA are effectively playing doctor. And just sometimes Panadol isn't enough! I think you might need to open your eyes to reality rather than tell us to harden the f&%^ up.