Ahhhhhh....
Intentions should be included in your circuit joining call, but if you must, then just on one leg of the circuit, (dont clog up the radio by repeating it 3 bloody times!)
Its all in the AIP.
Right or wrong, i dont generally do the 'turning final rnwy 23, full stop'.
Unless you actually state your for the circuit/T&G (either as part of your taxi or joining call), most (i think) would take it as read that you're gonna land off an approach.
Keep it short and informative...we all hate gob ****es who seem to luv the sound of their own static...pet peev number 2! (After loo roll round the wrong way obviously!)
Its all in the AIP.
Right or wrong, i dont generally do the 'turning final rnwy 23, full stop'.
Unless you actually state your for the circuit/T&G (either as part of your taxi or joining call), most (i think) would take it as read that you're gonna land off an approach.
Keep it short and informative...we all hate gob ****es who seem to luv the sound of their own static...pet peev number 2! (After loo roll round the wrong way obviously!)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Aust
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What view does everyone have on calling intentions for each leg of the circuit? (Touch'n'Go/Fullstop)?
Or do you guys only want it on Final
Or do you guys only want it on Final
This particular topic is getting very worn out. It comes up every other month and it is full of the same peeves. I aslo hate the 'finals', the 'pending', the'this time' blah blah blah..... What I hate the most is the:
ATC: ABC can you climb at 290 kts
ABC: Affirm we can give ya 310 if ya want
ATC: ABC climb at 290 kts
If they wanted to know if you could do 310 kts they would of asked. What makes me cringe even worse is when the Captain says to me "just tell 'em we can do 310 will ya"
I do my utmost best to make the correct calls, but I admit to having a tendency to pause mid radio transmittion while I punch away at the FMS because I have forgoten something and in my rush invariably press the wrong button. This im sure p!sses a few people off.
There, I said it. And it feels so much better to get that off my chest. So how many show of hands from you Aces to admit to not being so perfect........
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh really, are you a Cessna 152?
I hate it when on every call from about 50nm out, 'Capt 4 bars' will let us all know he is in a Cessna 152 (or whatever).
Even worse when they do 5-6 ccts and on every call we get it............
Geez that pi**es me off.............
Even worse when they do 5-6 ccts and on every call we get it............
Geez that pi**es me off.............
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Outback
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Centre Qlink Aaaaaaaaah 4something DELTA departed ahhhhhh where-ever tracking ahhhhhhhh some radial reference the ahhhhhh omni, on climb ahhhhhhhhhhhh flight levels and insert waypoint ahhhhhhhhhhhhh time insert time
Yer - i feel safe down the back - thank god i cant hear whats going on up the front ... 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: east (soon west)
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For christ's sake. Is this such a pressing issue?
Let's put a day long ban on everyone who has gone outside the AIP on the radio. Then all the people complaining on this topic can get together and see who can be the ultra professional of ultra professionals using the power of their own voice and a radio operator's certificate.
I could use a day off.
Let's put a day long ban on everyone who has gone outside the AIP on the radio. Then all the people complaining on this topic can get together and see who can be the ultra professional of ultra professionals using the power of their own voice and a radio operator's certificate.
I could use a day off.
No so interested in the thread nitty-gritty, but I must say= Wally and Death Pencil my eyes are watering from laughing so hard at your posts.
After a long day in the sadle thats just what i needed!
After a long day in the sadle thats just what i needed!
For christ's sake. Is this such a pressing issue?
Let's put a day long ban on everyone who has gone outside the AIP on the radio. Then all the people complaining on this topic can get together and see who can be the ultra professional of ultra professionals using the power of their own voice and a radio operator's certificate.
I could use a day off.
Let's put a day long ban on everyone who has gone outside the AIP on the radio. Then all the people complaining on this topic can get together and see who can be the ultra professional of ultra professionals using the power of their own voice and a radio operator's certificate.
I could use a day off.
If this thread, and the others like it get people thinking a bit about what they say on the radio then all the better. Nobody does R/T perfectly, but I'd rather people at least aim for perfection and put up with posts like yours than not give two ****s and blurt out god knows. Doubly so in high density airspace.
Switch the POB and the IFR bit around, then it's right, 
.
I normally do say it like it should be, I just had a moment and got the two in the wrong order,
.
.I normally do say it like it should be, I just had a moment and got the two in the wrong order,
.
heh heh, so it's possible to make a mistake with the wording of a radio call even when you've got as long as you want to type it up? I am quite pedantic with my calls so I agree with your sentiments.... but I did enjoy the irony there
One thing that bugs me is when you are tracking direct somewhere and the controllers give you descent but neglect to add "radar terrain".
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: east (soon west)
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
to err is human
Das Uber Soldat, this isn't about people brainstorming to try and iron out creases in their professional radio conduct, it is simply people venting their spleen because other less professional pilots have god forbid annoyed them with their sloppy work (refer line 1, post 1). What's even worse is when people plainly ignore the fact that they too, make errors from time to time. Nobody, myself included, presses that button and intends to do the wrong thing, but for god sake it happens.
Would you prefer to be flying in IMC in a CTAF with a gun pilot who hesitated between words or slipped an extra word into a radio call, or a dangerous pilot with no situational awareness who pumps out a verbal AIP? Because both of these types exist, and I certainly know who I'd want in my CTAF.
Please don't assume the moral high ground on this. People f#$k up, and I'm one of them, doesn't mean we're lazy or don't give a stuff, it means we are humans. Sadly the pilot community seems to be filled with many superhumans, which in my opinion is a problem much deeper than those that the rest of us have.
Would you prefer to be flying in IMC in a CTAF with a gun pilot who hesitated between words or slipped an extra word into a radio call, or a dangerous pilot with no situational awareness who pumps out a verbal AIP? Because both of these types exist, and I certainly know who I'd want in my CTAF.
Please don't assume the moral high ground on this. People f#$k up, and I'm one of them, doesn't mean we're lazy or don't give a stuff, it means we are humans. Sadly the pilot community seems to be filled with many superhumans, which in my opinion is a problem much deeper than those that the rest of us have.
this isn't about people brainstorming to try and iron out creases in their professional radio conduct, it is simply people venting their spleen because other less professional pilots have god forbid annoyed them with their sloppy work
Das Uber Soldat, this isn't about people brainstorming to try and iron out creases in their professional radio conduct, it is simply people venting their spleen because other less professional pilots have god forbid annoyed them with their sloppy work (refer line 1, post 1).
Sure, but I get to read all these little things, for eg 'taxi's instead of taxiing', double check the regs and improve my own standard of radio call. We all develop bad little habits and I'm not so arrogant as to think I can't be taught. Hence, I quite like the idea of people voicing common mistakes so that I can ensure I don't do the same.
What's even worse is when people plainly ignore the fact that they too, make errors from time to time. Nobody, myself included, presses that button and intends to do the wrong thing, but for god sake it happens.
They don't intend to do the wrong thing, but the trouble is that some people don't have the slightest clue what the right thing is either. Being made aware that there is a right way to do things, and a wrong way, is fine, in my books.
Would you prefer to be flying in IMC in a CTAF with a gun pilot who hesitated between words or slipped an extra word into a radio call, or a dangerous pilot with no situational awareness who pumps out a verbal AIP? Because both of these types exist, and I certainly know who I'd want in my CTAF.
Obviously the former. But I'd also expect that with time and experience, if the 'gun' pilot was a commercial pilot, a professional, that he'd continually try to improve his standard. I'd expect him if he read this thread to pick up on something he's doing wrong and have a crack at fixing it without
about it.
Please don't assume the moral high ground on this. People f#$k up, and I'm one of them, doesn't mean we're lazy or don't give a stuff, it means we are humans. Sadly the pilot community seems to be filled with many superhumans, which in my opinion is a problem much deeper than those that the rest of us have.
Sure, but I get to read all these little things, for eg 'taxi's instead of taxiing', double check the regs and improve my own standard of radio call. We all develop bad little habits and I'm not so arrogant as to think I can't be taught. Hence, I quite like the idea of people voicing common mistakes so that I can ensure I don't do the same.
What's even worse is when people plainly ignore the fact that they too, make errors from time to time. Nobody, myself included, presses that button and intends to do the wrong thing, but for god sake it happens.
They don't intend to do the wrong thing, but the trouble is that some people don't have the slightest clue what the right thing is either. Being made aware that there is a right way to do things, and a wrong way, is fine, in my books.
Would you prefer to be flying in IMC in a CTAF with a gun pilot who hesitated between words or slipped an extra word into a radio call, or a dangerous pilot with no situational awareness who pumps out a verbal AIP? Because both of these types exist, and I certainly know who I'd want in my CTAF.
Obviously the former. But I'd also expect that with time and experience, if the 'gun' pilot was a commercial pilot, a professional, that he'd continually try to improve his standard. I'd expect him if he read this thread to pick up on something he's doing wrong and have a crack at fixing it without
about it.Please don't assume the moral high ground on this. People f#$k up, and I'm one of them, doesn't mean we're lazy or don't give a stuff, it means we are humans. Sadly the pilot community seems to be filled with many superhumans, which in my opinion is a problem much deeper than those that the rest of us have.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: YBBN
Posts: 1,022
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
apart from the "ahhhhhh" bit filling up the frequencies and clogging up space where other things could be said.. I think it's a bit finnicky to be getting sh*ts about how people say "finals" etc.
Does it not get the message across that this person is in x place, at x altitude, and you are in y place at y altitude and know you aren't going to hit him?
Does it not get the message across that this person is in x place, at x altitude, and you are in y place at y altitude and know you aren't going to hit him?
So where do you draw the line then Pryo?
There is a right way to do things, and a wrong way. People make mistakes of course, but if you find you're doing the wrong thing and decide you don't care because its 'close enough', that's hardly professional.
There is a right way to do things, and a wrong way. People make mistakes of course, but if you find you're doing the wrong thing and decide you don't care because its 'close enough', that's hardly professional.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The pause when calling taxi or position report and waiting for a "go ahead" (a phrase now outlawed in ATC phraseology 
) was introduced with TAAATS to allow ATC's to get their head around the new system. That's long gone. Nowadays just jump straight into the full taxi call or position report. If we're not ready, we'll ask you to repeat.
DO NOT ask for traffic. DO NOT ask for a code. That is our job and part of our standard transmission. If you don't get a code then tune up 2000 as required and wait. The 1% of the time you don't get it on taxi means that we are busy and will get back to you. If that is the case and you ask me, You'll get "squawk 2000" in a very iritated tone. If you don't get it on departure, ask then.
There is no need to read back a traffic statement. If you receive multiple traffic items, then we are quite happy for you to say, "copied ABC, DEF etc." as this let's us all know that you copied the whole lot, however all that is technically required is you callsign ONLY.
Heard recently...
ABC: "Ml Centre, ABC taxi KII for MB blah blah"
ML Centre: "ABC, ML centre, squawk 1234, no reported IFR traffic"
ABC: "1234, copied no IFR traffic, ABC"
Ml Centre: "ABC copied you copied no IFR traffic"
ABC: "Ahhh.. ABC copied no IFR traffic"
We are finding that with the rapid acceleration of pilots through the ranks, phraseology is slipping, particularly in the regionals and even to some extent the majors. If you want a good example of what to say and how simple it is, listen to the veterans on the majors. Most have it nailed. The best examples of good phraseology in my opinion are the RFDS pilots. 99% spot on. Know the books. Just because half of the pilots out there say something, doesn't means it's correct.
I should copy and paste this post for every thread that comes up on crappy phraseology.
) was introduced with TAAATS to allow ATC's to get their head around the new system. That's long gone. Nowadays just jump straight into the full taxi call or position report. If we're not ready, we'll ask you to repeat.DO NOT ask for traffic. DO NOT ask for a code. That is our job and part of our standard transmission. If you don't get a code then tune up 2000 as required and wait. The 1% of the time you don't get it on taxi means that we are busy and will get back to you. If that is the case and you ask me, You'll get "squawk 2000" in a very iritated tone. If you don't get it on departure, ask then.
There is no need to read back a traffic statement. If you receive multiple traffic items, then we are quite happy for you to say, "copied ABC, DEF etc." as this let's us all know that you copied the whole lot, however all that is technically required is you callsign ONLY.
Heard recently...
ABC: "Ml Centre, ABC taxi KII for MB blah blah"
ML Centre: "ABC, ML centre, squawk 1234, no reported IFR traffic"
ABC: "1234, copied no IFR traffic, ABC"
Ml Centre: "ABC copied you copied no IFR traffic"
ABC: "Ahhh.. ABC copied no IFR traffic"
We are finding that with the rapid acceleration of pilots through the ranks, phraseology is slipping, particularly in the regionals and even to some extent the majors. If you want a good example of what to say and how simple it is, listen to the veterans on the majors. Most have it nailed. The best examples of good phraseology in my opinion are the RFDS pilots. 99% spot on. Know the books. Just because half of the pilots out there say something, doesn't means it's correct.
I should copy and paste this post for every thread that comes up on crappy phraseology.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While we're on the subject.....
Why is it that the Americans can not stick to proper phraseology?? Everytime they make a radio call it is filled with "we're ahhhhh" and "we're comin on down the ahhhhh ILS on sixteen right" etc?? Not once have I ever had an American crew just stick to standard RT. I'd hate to see what it must sound like over there
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Living next door to Alan
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Say Again?
Indeed Roger.
"No need to read back everything I said".
"No need to read back everything you said".
It's a pain in the arse, but when you have flight instructors with less than 200 hours total experience teaching newbies you can't expect much more, R/T standards-wise. It seems to be all about passing on bad habits rather than quality of training....
There is very little experience left in the flying training industry (with the exception of a few very small pockets of highly experienced career instructors).
The "Aaaaah's" and "And's" are all part of it.
"No need to read back everything I said".
"No need to read back everything you said".
It's a pain in the arse, but when you have flight instructors with less than 200 hours total experience teaching newbies you can't expect much more, R/T standards-wise. It seems to be all about passing on bad habits rather than quality of training....
There is very little experience left in the flying training industry (with the exception of a few very small pockets of highly experienced career instructors).
The "Aaaaah's" and "And's" are all part of it.
I would have to agree that correct R/T is very important.....but come on give Qlink a break. I know first-hand that Qlink are extremely particular about correct R/T phraseology and if it doesn't meet AIP's you're told in no uncertain terms to go READ THE BOOK!
As for the the Ahhhhh's and ahmmmm's I still do input these every now and again especially when it's not a standard radio call from ATC Eg....you can have runway 20 or 05 whichever you prefer...etc.....but have to agree to think about response beforehand to not clog up airways....perhaps it's a confidence thing!???
I believe that as the newbies (cadets and trainees) proceed and become more comfortable with the environment their confidence will grow and their R/T procedures improve....I certainly have noticed this with my progression.
As for the the Ahhhhh's and ahmmmm's I still do input these every now and again especially when it's not a standard radio call from ATC Eg....you can have runway 20 or 05 whichever you prefer...etc.....but have to agree to think about response beforehand to not clog up airways....perhaps it's a confidence thing!???
I believe that as the newbies (cadets and trainees) proceed and become more comfortable with the environment their confidence will grow and their R/T procedures improve....I certainly have noticed this with my progression.